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$20 for anyone who can stand a smart argument of why cage is not in the same tier as sonya

Sao87

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
Is the purpose of this thread to prove Cage is not on Sonya's level? I've been playing Cage against Morty's Sonya for more over a year.
 
Treadmill

Treadmill

Champion
Playpal said:
This right here.

If a character is better, then why are they in the same tier? You might as well make a tier list on a graph like Marvel.
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Yeah, the grouping is irrelevant. It's the matchup numbers. If character A has 2 bad mus and character B has 3...then why group them with some abstract rule?

#IamMuffinMuggers
 
Sao87

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
I'd say Sonya has all the same problems Cage has match-up wise, she just has slightly better specials that make the difficult matches look more winnable. In purpose both characters greatest strengths are from sweep distance (d4 distance) and closer. Any character that can prevent them from reaching that distance consistently will give them problems.
 
Sao87

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
Heres some funny info for you guys talking about cage vs sonyas hitbox.

Cage's hitbox always stays at a mid level crouching whereas Sonyas hitbox floats from a mid level to a small hitbox level based on here breathing.
YES I SAID BASED ON HER BREATHING.

Don't believe me pick kabal and press stand 2 while she is crouch blocking. If she has inhaled a breath the stand 2 will connect against her block, if she has exhaled her breath her hitbox becomes low and his stand 2 will whiff over her crouch block. Sonya has the dominant hitbox only due to this silly rule.
 
rev0lver

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
From a Kitana player's perspective, there are a lot of reasons why I'm more afraid of Sonya than Cage. Her d4 hits me from halfway across the screen and I can't do shit about it unless I make a really good read with f2. Rather than chip damage, I have to completely guess what she's going to do in her 50/50 where I'm eating more than chip if I'm wrong. Her projectile is way better than Cage's. Up close, I have to be way more cautious against Sonya than Cage. If I read Cage doing just f3 and he does f33b3, big deal. If I read Sonya doing anything and I guess wrong I can eat a full divekick or ex cartwheel combo. Ex cartwheel especially >>>>>>>>>> Cage. Sonya prevents a normal footsie game for me and it's fucking stupid.
 
ForeverKing

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
Konqrr said:
You wanted matchup numbers? Here they are with comparisons:
(Taken from the most recent matchup discussions for both characters)
http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/johnny-cage-mu-chart.25726/
http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/sonyas-match-ups.25582/

I cannot chime in on any matchup information except for Kitana which I believe to be 6-4 in her favor, but these lists have it at 5-5 so it would make no difference. To give my opinion on any other matchup would be overstepping my bounds as I do not play any other character serious enough to be able to do so.

Matchup ------ Sonya - Cage --- Diff
===================================================
Baraka: ------- 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Cyber Sub Zero: 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Cyblax: ------- 6-4 --- 4-6 --- -2
Cyrax: -------- 5-5 --- 4-6 --- -1
Ermac: -------- 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Freddy: ------- 3-7 --- 3-7 --- 0
Jade: --------- 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Jax: ---------- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Johnny Cage: -- 6-4 --- XXX --- X
Kabal: -------- 4-6 --- 3-7 --- -1
Kano: --------- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Kenshi: ------- 3-7 --- 3-7 --- 0
Kitana: ------- 5-5 --- 5-5 --- 0
Kung Lao: ----- 5-5 --- 6-4 --- +1
Liu Kang: ----- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Mileena: ------ 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Nightwolf: ---- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Noob Saibot: -- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Quan Chi: ----- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Raiden: ------- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Rain: --------- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Reptile: ------ 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Scorpion: ----- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Sektor: ------- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Shang Tsung: -- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Sheeva: ------- 6-4 --- 7-3 --- +1
Sindel: ------- 5-5 --- 6-4 --- +1
Skarlet: ------ 5-5 --- 5-5 --- 0
Smoke: -------- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Sonya: -------- XXX --- 4-6 --- X
Stryker: ------ 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Sub Zero: ----- 5-5 --- 4-6 --- -1
===================================================
MATCHUP DIFFERENCE: -13 plus Sonya wins against Cage in their matchup.
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I think Konqrr just won this, he gave you exactly what you wanted
 
Sao87

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
FOREVER KING said:
I think Konqrr just won this, he gave you exactly what you wanted
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Eh, just looking over those match up charts and a lot of it is bad information driven by a community full of people who don't know what they're talking about. Konqrr said himself he feels kitana beats cage 6-4 but the community calls it even, lmao..
 
CheapEddie

CheapEddie

I HAVE A FACE NOW!
Hm, Sonya can try attempts to build meter outside sweep distance while Cage cannot.
Her risk/reward is ridiculous, dont underistimate the power of instant dive-kick. She gets more that 30 from safe armor special and about 45+ from dive. Cage is not even close with guessing right Ex-Nuptunch which gives him 14+free attempt of 11f1-frametrap or f33-exforceballs.
Ex-Cartwhell is just retarded, seriously. (Dont tell me about Cage`s "invincibility" on Ex-Nutpunch, when u can beat it out with throw. Cyrax really appreciates NRS for that. -_-). Her armor is strange tho.

But i still think Cage goes 5-5 with Sonya.(arguably) He plays defence in this game. D4(block)-MS can be jumped out if Sonya is not gonna finish it with f+1, b3 beats out her d4 if timed correctly, u can whiff punish it btw or atleast start ur pressure. Without a meter she is able to defend against Cage`s pressure but its always risky for her. Dive can be full punished, d1-too. 1-(string) whiffs on second hit so u can d1/d3 her and start ur pressure again.(It might have been really bad for her, if 1`d whiffed on first hit, when Cage sits in block, but it doesnt really matter).
When she`s got meter u have many options to check her. U can f3-ex-nutpunch her if u sure she is gonna try to break in. Im pretty sure u can check her with D1 for free- u`ll able to block cartwheel after it.

P.S. Mikemetroid 11f1 and f33exforceballs give Cage f3 to Lao. I thinku told about ex-teleport but i mean, come on: he wastes 1 bar and takes 5-6% chip for nothing. I dont think its a fair trade. Btw, im pretty sure u can even f33 after it without any risk.
 
Peckapowa

Peckapowa

Champion
CheapEddie said:
Hm, Sonya can try attempts to build meter outside sweep distance while Cage cannot.
Her risk/reward is ridiculous, dont underistimate the power of instant dive-kick. She gets more that 30 from safe armor special and about 45+ from dive. Cage is not even close with guessing right Ex-Nuptunch which gives him 14+free attempt of 11f1-frametrap or f33-exforceballs.
Ex-Cartwhell is just retarded, seriously. (Dont tell me about Cage`s "invincibility" on Ex-Nutpunch, when u can beat it out with throw. Cyrax really appreciates NRS for that. -_-). Her armor is strange tho.

But i still think Cage goes 5-5 with Sonya.(arguably) He plays defence in this game. D4(block)-MS can be jumped out if Sonya is not gonna finish it with f+1, b3 beats out her d4 if timed correctly, u can whiff punish it btw or atleast start ur pressure. Without a meter she is able to defend against Cage`s pressure but its always risky for her. Dive can be full punished, d1-too. 1-(string) whiffs on second hit so u can d1/d3 her and start ur pressure again.(It might have been really bad for her, if 1`d whiffed on first hit, when Cage sits in block, but it doesnt really matter).
When she`s got meter u have many options to check her. U can f3-ex-nutpunch her if u sure she is gonna try to break in. Im pretty sure u can check her with D1 for free- u`ll able to block cartwheel after it.

P.S. Mikemetroid 11f1 and f33exforceballs give Cage f3 to Lao. I thinku told about ex-teleport but i mean, come on: he wastes 1 bar and takes 5-6% chip for nothing. I dont think its a fair trade. Btw, im pretty sure u can even f33 after it without any risk.
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i feel that sonya 6-4s cage because sonya plays really good d, in order to punish her i have to take huge risks, that i can be punished for, if she slows it down and builds meter than she is always a threat, her d4 wins the footsie battle if placed correctly and their is nothing ever wrong with d4 ms f1 because its +1. also her shoudler can be utilized
 
RTM2004

RTM2004

Revenant Jade
PerfectMindGame said:
first of all I don't think sonya is half the character she is without meter.
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Sonya was garbage tier last year. Your comment is the exact reason why she got BUFFED in the first place!

Later on we realized that Sonya is already a solid character without that armored Ex Cartwheel.

Same can be said about Jax getting over buffed with armored nonsense and his fast projectile.

However the dash nerf is what killed this game and put zoners in favor like Kabal iAGB domination
 
Peckapowa

Peckapowa

Champion
Sao87 said:
I'd say Sonya has all the same problems Cage has match-up wise, she just has slightly better specials that make the difficult matches look more winnable. In purpose both characters greatest strengths are from sweep distance (d4 distance) and closer. Any character that can prevent them from reaching that distance consistently will give them problems.
Click to expand...
shes way better at getting around zoning due to her ex cartwheel and divekick, she zone chars like cyrax and reptile and liu kang (better, she still gets outzoned a lot) ex cartwheel is everything, she even does better against kenshi because of it, and she gets away with more jumping

cage should NEVER beat kenshi btw even when he gets in he has to risk crossing over, and being predictable with his strings because if he finishes them kenshi is away again., sonya's ex cartwheel gives her a much better chance just because its such an amazing advancing move.
 
Big Pampering

Big Pampering

Master
RTM2004 said:
Sonya was garbage tier last year. Your comment is the exact reason why she got BUFFED in the first place!

Later on we realized that Sonya is already a solid character without that armored Ex Cartwheel.

Same can be said about Jax getting over buffed with armored nonsense and his fast projectile.

However the dash nerf is what killed this game and put zoners in favor like Kabal iAGB domination
Click to expand...
lol, jax is A tier now so he needed that stuff. also sonya needed that ex cartwheel, but it didnt have to be safe though.
 
Sao87

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
Peckapowa said:
shes way better at getting around zoning due to her ex cartwheel and divekick, she zone chars like cyrax and reptile and liu kang (better, she still gets outzoned a lot) ex cartwheel is everything, she even does better against kenshi because of it, and she gets away with more jumping

cage should NEVER beat kenshi btw even when he gets in he has to risk crossing over, and being predictable with his strings because if he finishes them kenshi is away again., sonya's ex cartwheel gives her a much better chance just because its such an amazing advancing move.
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I'm going to respond to you, I'm just in a game of league right now.

Dive kick doesn't really help her advance. It's risky.

Ex Cartwheel is used because its a universally safe option. The reason its considered strong is because she can make a prediction with it and not get punished for an incorrect prediction. However there are still answers to cartwheels if you run into a sonya who is cartwheel happy (every fucking "top" sonya I see).

I don't even understand what you mean she zones chars like cyrax, reptile and liu kang. Shes on their level in terms of zoning? Or she can zone them out better than cage?

Regardless of ex cartwheel being an option against kenshi she does just slightly better than cage in the match up (still terrible). And its only because her armored move keeps her in rather than pushing him away.
 
Sao87

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
I think I understand Riu48's frustration though. This community puts Sonya on sort of a pedestal because they don't know how to fucking fight against her. They don't want to put in the time to learn the match up and take advantage of her weaknesses.

I believe what he is essentially trying to say is "why is sonya considered the 3rd best in the game" I believe she is closer to Cages tier placement. Which I agree with a little bit more, due to their similarities in design and purpose.

I don't understand how Sonya is 3rd place when we don't have more people who can play Freddy, Smoke, Kitana, Cyrax, etc at a high level. When this happens Sonya will move down. And closer towards the Jax, Cage, Sonya, Kung Lao placement where she belongs.
 
Treadmill

Treadmill

Champion
Sao87 said:
I don't even understand what you mean she zones chars like cyrax, reptile and liu kang. Shes on their level in terms of zoning? Or she can zone them out better than cage?

Yes and yes. Her recovery on rings is dumb when you take into account her rush down. Cage has a shit projectile because of his up close game. Sonya doesn't suffer the same fate. As a reptile player I can attest to how hard it is to get around those damn rings without using meter.
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Sao87

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
I can attest to how simple it is to get around those rings as someone who has fought her probably more than 99.9% of the people on this site. It's not like she has the option to manipulate where they're going to go. Its a straight up duckable projectile that leads into NOTHING.
 
redeyes

redeyes

Button Masher
Sao87 said:
I can attest to how simple it is to get around those rings as someone who has fought her probably more than 99.9% of the people on this site. It's not like she has the option to manipulate where they're going to go. Its a straight up duckable projectile that leads into NOTHING.
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she out zones cyrax with it & reptile and sub zero and Kung lao.

i dont think its that bad yo
 
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