$20 for anyone who can stand a smart argument of why cage is not in the same tier as sonya

[Derptile]

lol i mean they understand what i am asking for

This thread is fraudulent.

I demand for us 3 to have 20 dollars.

 

[The Borax Kid]

Tournament results > biased matchup charts.

Nobody understands what your asking for because you changed the rules in the middle of the thread.

 

[Sao87]

WTH RIU48 WUT ABOUT ME, I'VE BEEN PLAYING DEFENSE 4 U THE WHOLE TIME!

 

[THTB]

Tournament results > biased matchup charts.

Nobody understands what your asking for because you changed the rules in the middle of the thread.

What changes? He's stuck to what he originally meant throughout the thread. Nobody else understood/read what he meant, though.

 

[The Borax Kid]

What changes? He's stuck to what he originally meant throughout the thread. Nobody else understood/read what he meant, though.

Seems to me like he is just ignoring what everyone has given him in terms of data.

He asked for a well-thought out, factual, data-driven argument and he got exactly that when you put all the posts together.

He suddenly really needs matchup charts but he was already given at least one from a good source who say sonya is better enough than cage to be one tier higher.

He was also given good character analysis which explained why Sonya is so better than Cage in her mechanics and has much more beatable opponents in terms of hard counters which supports the conclusions drawn from the matchup chart.

But he rather cling to his made up numbers, so what exactly can anyone, anyone possibly present to him if he refuses to listen?

 

[Justice]

What changes? He's stuck to what he originally meant throughout the thread. Nobody else understood/read what he meant, though.

With all due respect, I went and re-read the title of this thread and riu's first post. In both, all he asks for is a "smart argument". He did not specifically ask for matchup numbers or tech or in anyway establish any sort of criteria for what he calls a "smart argument"

If all he wanted was matchup numbers he could have found on his own with minimal effort, then this thread has no purpose and should be locked.

 

[Evil_Riu48]

@Derptile all you have done is compered cage's tools with sonya's tools

@The Borax Kid just because some post a matchups list it does not make that matchup list realisty does it? anyone can post an unreal matchup list should i pay them because of it ? . . . tell me the numer of the post you think was the best answer and i will tell you what is wrong and why i do not agree. . .just say the number but i will not answer to every post in this thread because most of them are dumd


@Justice last time i check to place a character in a TIER you have to compared them with the whole cast to have a good argument of why he/she is on that tier. . . just compering them to 1-4 characters does not stand a good arguement of why they are in that tier

 

[BillStickers]

This thread needs to be closed. Promising money to a community full of broke people when you're never going to pay up is just cruel. STORMS

 

[Evil_Riu48]

Matchup ------ Sonya - Cage --- Diff
===================================================
Baraka: ------- 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Cyber Sub Zero: 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Cyblax: ------- 6-4 --- 4-6 --- -2
Cyrax: -------- 5-5 --- 4-6 --- -1
Ermac: -------- 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Freddy: ------- 3-7 --- 3-7 --- 0
Jade: --------- 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Jax: ---------- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Johnny Cage: -- 6-4 --- XXX --- X
Kabal: -------- 4-6 --- 3-7 --- -1
Kano: --------- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Kenshi: ------- 3-7 --- 3-7 --- 0
Kitana: ------- 5-5 --- 5-5 --- 0
Kung Lao: ----- 5-5 --- 6-4 --- +1
Liu Kang: ----- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Mileena: ------ 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Nightwolf: ---- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Noob Saibot: -- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Quan Chi: ----- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Raiden: ------- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Rain: --------- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Reptile: ------ 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Scorpion: ----- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Sektor: ------- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Shang Tsung: -- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Sheeva: ------- 6-4 --- 7-3 --- +1
Sindel: ------- 5-5 --- 6-4 --- +1
Skarlet: ------ 5-5 --- 5-5 --- 0
Smoke: -------- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Sonya: -------- XXX --- 4-6 --- X
Stryker: ------ 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Sub Zero: ----- 5-5 --- 4-6 --- -1
===================================================
MATCHUP DIFFERENCE: -13 plus Sonya wins against Cage in their matchup.

this is the smart post here and but is not a realisty one

Konqrr this is not derected to you after all you did not made this matchup list yourself

here is why this matchup list is not realisty

1)cage vs cyber sub 5-5 really? why is this 5-5 because cyber sub has a parry? this is a joke

2)cage vs jax 6-4 come on guys is clear that jax has a harder time against cage than against sonya how is this 6-4 cage whn sonya vs jax is 6-4 sonya does that makes any sense ? not jax vs cage is 7-3 cage not 6-4

3) so sonya beat ermac 7-3 but cage only beat ermac 6-4 this is a big down play. . . we all know cage is better than sonya a close and ermac is not able to keep cage out on top of that he does not have armor to help him when cage in. ermac elso has to be careful about the way he uses the push against cage because cage can punish it on block whic against sonya he can freely use it since she can not punish it. sonya will have to get in on ermac many times before winning the fight since she is not able to keep her oponent locked in as well as cage does so in other words she has to get in more times is less effective when she is in and is easier for ermac to get out against her than against cage but some people want to say that she beat ermac 7-3 and cage beat ermac 6-4 GTFO and please do not tell me that ermac has a 6 frames d1 and that he can poke out of cage rushdown


and there is more

 

[MashPotatoTower]

Fuck cage he broke yo, mo broke then Sonya. Where's ma 20$

 

[The Borax Kid]

@The Borax Kid just because some post a matchups list it does not make that matchup list realisty does it? anyone can post an unreal matchup list should i pay them because of it ? . . . tell me the numer of the post you think was the best answer and i will tell you what is wrong and why i do not agree. . .just say the number but i will not answer to every post in this thread because most of them are dumd

It's really sad you would call all of the well-written posts in this thread "dumb" when you can't even spell the word, or many other words.

I'm officially done with this thread, because your a con man and whatever numbers someone pulls out of their ass will never be better than the numbers you decided to pull out of yours.

Peace out.

 

[THTB]

It's really sad you would call all of the of well-written posts in this thread "dumb" when you can't even spell the word, or many other words.

You don't know Riu at all, do you?

 

[Death]

sorry for the delay

it look like only konker and thtb got what i am asking for lol

i thought about replaying to everyone who post some matchups but i think it would be better to post my matchups and compere them some times i think people can not see by pass sonya's d4 and ex cartheel and after reading some post i am 100% sure that cage is been down play here are both of my matchups

if explanation is needed i ll give just tag me and ask

matchups in which maybe i am placing sonya better than i think she really is in that matchup just to make people who want to over rate her happy and still make my point
matchups in which maybe i am placing cage worst than i think he does just to make the cage player who are downplaying him happy and i still make my point
sonya cage

baraka 7-3 7-3
cybersub 6-4 6-4
cyrax 6-4 5-5
ermac 6-4 7-3
freddy 3-7 3-7
jade 7-3 7-3
jax 6-4 7-3
cage,sonya 5-5 5-5
kabal 3-7 3-7
kano 7-3 7-3
kenshi 4-6 3-7
kitana 5-5 5-5
kung lao 5-5 6-4
liu kang 6-4 6-4
mileena 7-3 6-4
knightwolf 7-3 7-3
noob 6-4 5-5
quan chi 6-4 6-4
raiden 7-3 6-4
reptile 6-4 5-5
rain 6-4 5-5
scorpion 7-3 7-3
sektor 5-5 5-5
shang 6-4 6-4
sheeva 7-3 7-3
sindel 6-4 7-3
skarlet 5-5 6-4
smoke 6-5 6-4
stryker 6-4 6-4
sub zero 5-5 4-6

sonya 174
cage 171

Thats a pretty good chart. I see you changed your mind about a few MUs. I do disagree with the Sektor MU. I think Sonya has an edge there.

Sonya beating Quan 7-3 is possible too. I used to think its 6-4 but after casuals with Insup its a lot tougher for Quan imo.

The cage players must HATE your version of his numbers lol

 

[Mikemetroid]

The cage players must HATE your version of his numbers lol

I just don't think Cage beats jax 7-3... for the most part its actually not that bad.

Evil_Riu48 make your decision mang. this thread is silly as hell.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

I will agree with Riu that both characters are equally dumb. Sonya can control more space because of her D+4 but she also has trouble staying in against most characters because her strings aren't particularly good, unlike Cage. Her projectile is stupidly fast and is dangerous not because it makes her a strong zoner but because it opens you up. With Shang for example, I will try to keep her out and play footsies but then she will start to pelt me with onion rings, which beats out my specials unless I commit to them way ahead of time. This allows her to get in and mix me up. Cage on the other hand has a MIND-NUMBINGLY easy game guessing game and normals that are also really easy to whiff punish with. The messed up thing about Cage is that no matter what skill level the Cage player is, they all benefit from his simple guessing games. Both characters are messed up, but Sonya might have a slight edge due to the fact that Kenshi doesn't rape her quite as hard as he does Cage.

 

[Death]

I will agree with Riu that both characters are equally dumb. Sonya can control more space because of her D+4 but she also has trouble staying in against most characters because her strings aren't particularly good, unlike Cage. Her projectile is stupidly fast and is dangerous not because it makes her a strong zoner but because it opens you up. With Shang for example, I will try to keep her out and play footsies but then she will start to pelt me with onion rings, which beats out my specials unless I commit to them way ahead of time. This allows her to get in and mix me up. Cage on the other hand has a MIND-NUMBINGLY easy game guessing game and normals that are also really easy to whiff punish with. The messed up thing about Cage is that no matter what skill level the Cage player is, they all benefit from his simple guessing games. Both characters are messed up, but Sonya might have a slight edge due to the fact that Kenshi doesn't rape her quite as hard as he does Cage.

The kenshi MU is still tough but I agree. She does better vs Kenshi than Cage because of her advancing ex cartwheel that launches but this can also hurt her in a sense. She cant really punish a whiff SC so the kenshi player knows ahead of time shes just fishing for the ex cartwheel and Sonya cant build meter at all in the MU so shes very limited on ex cartwheel in general so she has to pick her spots on when to throw it out cuz essentially shes just throwing it out lol It is tough but not as bad as Cage. But at the same time Cage still has ex shadow kick and can get damage from full screen which pushes kenshi to the corner. Once hes in on kenshi he can also stay in too which helps. But Kenshi has a shit load of safe armor so once Cage is in he can just throw out one of them and Cage is fucked.

ERR kenshi lol

 

[Evil_Riu48]

wow only konqrr could came out with a full list? if you do not know the sonya matchup just post your cage's matchup but be honest

 

[crosstalk]

I like your MU chart Riu, although there are some debatable MUs (mainly Cyrax, Kitana, and Sonya). Some thinks it's in those character's favor, it's even, or it's in Cage's favor - the numbers are all over the place for those MUs from players on both sides. Another MU is Freddy - m2dave says it's 5-5 but some say it's 4-6 or 3-7 for Cage. I personally have no idea. One MU that should change is definitely Noob-Cage. That's a 6-4 for Cage, most would agree. QC-Cage is probably 7-3 for Cage as well. Other MUs that are debatable are Skarlet and Shang. I can definitely see your argument that they may be in the same tier based on their numbers, either A+ or S. Also, I don't think any Cage player downplays Cage... I think we all agree he's top 10, it's just where he lies is very debatable. Personally, I'd put him in the 6-8 spot. In the end, the Cage numbers are all over the place from both Cage and non-Cage players so making a MU comparison is difficult.

 

[DJ L Toro]

I agree with derptile, this thread is fraudulent.
Evil_Riu48 my argument included a discussion of tools, matchups, and ability to accomplish what they need to do to win. sonya wins across the board often by a lot. If this does not make it clear that she is a tier above cage, then you are simply being unreasonable.
I have no self interest in this (i requested the money i earned in this challenge go directly to cancer research without ever touching my hands). i can honestly say that there has been no dispute of any argument that i have presented and they all hold true.

 

[Evil_Riu48]

I agree with derptile, this thread is fraudulent.
Evil_Riu48 my argument included a discussion of tools, matchups, and ability to accomplish what they need to do to win. sonya wins across the board often by a lot. If this does not make it clear that she is a tier above cage, then you are simply being unreasonable.
I have no self interest in this (i requested the money i earned in this challenge go directly to cancer research without ever touching my hands). i can honestly say that there has been no dispute of any argument that i have presented and they all hold true.

you made a very good arguemet of why sonya is better than cage but who is better is not the question i asked
for as long as i can remember tier list had been made by compering the numbers in the matchup for each character against the whole cast
adding this numbers and based on the final number they are place on a tier . . . this is why i said that konqrr post was the best post on this thread but
the numbers he post are clearly are down playing of cage and i explained why


it look like you guys want me to pay money to any post in here when only one person post a full list

 

[DJ L Toro]

you made a very good arguemet of why sonya is better than cage but who is better is not the question i asked
for as long as i can remember tier list had been made by compering the numbers in the matchup for each character against the whole cast
adding this numbers and based on the final number they are place on a tier . . . this is why i said that konqrr post was the best post on this thread but
the numbers he post are clearly are down playing of cage and i explained why


it look like you guys want me to pay money to any post in here when only one person post a full list

people make tier lists in different ways. it's not just matchup numbers, it's also tournament viability, character tools, the ability to get the job done, and so on. My argument is that sonya is substantially better than cage in all of this, yes, but so much that she is a tier up. the matchup discussion suggests that sonya does not lose to anyone that cage does not lose to and that the fights she does lose she does better than cage in them (my matchup numbers are taken from the matchup threads' most recent posted tier lists along with discussion and consensus. i play neither character, but the community agrees that sonya does not lose any matchups beyond kabal, kenshi, and freddy, and unlike the 2-8s and 3-7s that cage gets in those sonya's sitting pretty at 4-6. also that sonya wins most of her other matchups while cage often goes 5-5 and cage loses to Sub, kitana, skarlet, and maybe shang while sonya doesnt). She has all the tools to win a lot more difficult matchups and against high level players in tournament.
Also, their playstyles are very similar. rushdown, beatdown, pressure, guessing game, all of it.
Therefore my argument is not that sonya is simply better than cage but that she is a better version of cage because of her better tools, matchups, etc. If she's a better version then she ought to be higher on the tier list to indicate that. not doing so would indicate that they are roughly even characters when sonya is clearly the more viable character.

also, if all you care about is matchups, here, it's a bit dated, but matchups havent changed substantially for these characters. sonya facerapes cage's matchup numbers
http://testyourmight.com/threads/mk9-tier-list-september-2012.24015/
This also shows why only matchup numbers does not determine tier lists. do you really think kenshi, sheeva, and kano have their own tiers because of their matchup numbers?

as a side note the OP said anyone who can make an argument and adequately defend it. that means that your response to konqrr's argument is irrelevant to mine and whether i earned the 20 bucks for cancer research and treatment. I have presented multiple arguments that independently show why sonya is a tier up, but that also work in conjunction. i only have to win one to win that sonya is tier up, and since tou refuse to responde to either the tools argument or the "she's a better version of cage" argument then i have met the conditions of the challenge.

 

[Evil_Riu48]

that is not how tier list works

the cage players who make that matchup need to get real and this community as well because is been close to two years since this game came out and we still having arguement about this kind of topic because people are blinded by their own experience and can not adccept the fact that matchups do not reflect their personal agenda

 

[DJ L Toro]

so kenshi, sheeva, and kano really have their own tiers? lol ok, sorry kids with cancer, you get nothing. i tried.
though to be fair that's still not a response to what i said. sonya murders cage on matchups. i'm not going to type up my own tier lists because the community has already done that (and i linked you to a chart. also on both subforums there's a list page which is where i got the numbers i posted from. it's really not difficult to fact check me if you want to, you clearly just dont care though). consensus is she is a tier up because she wins a lot more, loses a lot less, and goes even in the rest of the matchups.
And you're a fool if you think tournament viability has nothing to do with tiers.

 

[Zyphox]

First of all I dont even think Sonya is S tier. I think shes 1 below S and in the same tier as Cage. I do think shes on the higher end of A+ while Cage is on the lower end.

Sonya does better vs Kenshi/Kabal. I personally think Sonya is 3-7 vs Kenshi and 4-6 vs Kabal. Supposedly Cage loses 2-8 to Kenshi and 3-7 to Kabal.

But other than that their not that much different.

you really down play sonya like that wow even after nec c mon death, if there is one s tier rushdown character in the game it is sonya. i still remember along time ago your arguement that cage was top 5. but it is impossible when kabal, kenshi, kung lao, cyrax, and sonya are in the same game as cage lol cage is so one dimensional and its now easier than ever to get out of cage pressure imho sonya is S tier, tell me something she can't do besides out zone certain characters.

 

[Zyphox]

yes my claim is that both of them are in the same tier both are S tier

i am not try to find out who is better than who here

i will tell you why cage is not S tier. it has nothing to do with my own experiences with cage. look at his tools man. outside of sweep range JOHNNY CAGE IS THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME. all you can do outside of sweep range is play footsies. cage does not has safe armor, cage does have the WORST projectile in the game, he doe not have a safe forwards advancing special, and the range of all of his normals dont go farther than his sweep. the only thing cage has going for him is that he ends combos in nutpunch to keep you in pressure and his pressure is the best in the game, with sonya and kabal tied very very very closely behind him. and am being generous there you could make an argument that kabals pressure is better just harder to execute same as sonyas, she has soooooooo many more options in pressure than cage does. cage has f3 and nutpunch ex fireballs and 11f1 21 can be interupted and kabal can duck f33b3 and flash parry full combo %40+ inbetween f33b3, trust me it has happened to me before. if you are the most successful sonya then dont downplay here and compare her to cage. sonya is way better than cage is i could write another paragraph as to what tools she has that make her s tier, i just stated above why cage is not s tier.