$20 for anyone who can stand a smart argument of why cage is not in the same tier as sonya

[DJ L Toro]

DJ L Toro

Sonya actually beats sindel. That MU is much different offline.

i was just looking at your most recent matchup chart on the matchup chart thread. i assumed if sonya lost it was by nearly nothing though because i didnt see it, lol. y'all need to do a Sonya matchups december 2012 thread. freaking hate having to scroll through page after page just to see what's sorta current.
same is true for the cage community.

 

[G4S Claude VonStroke]

Ok i've recently talked to Dizzy about MU's and he has cages bad Mu's as...

Kabal - 3-7
Kenshi - 2-8
Sonya - 4-6
Sub Zero - 4-6
Freddy 4-6 or 3-7 can't remember.
Kitana -4-6 (Bit, and khaotic also said this.)

If these are wrong Dizzy please correct. Also MIT agreed with these numbers as well I think

I talked to Blake the other day and he said Sonya loses to

Kabal 4-6 or 7/3
Kenshi -4-6
Freddy -4-6 or 7/3

So according to two of the to players of each character Cage has double the bad Mu's that sonya has. If that's the case He's not in her tier. Now if other top sonya players like Riu48 and Death disagree that's fine. I'm going but what i've recently been told.

 

[Konqrr]

i am still waiting for the person who is going to compered sonya all of sonya's matchups with all of cage's matchups and show me why she should be one tier highter with the matchup numbers

i have to go now i ll check the thread again tomorrow or later tonight if i have time i am man of my word i do will pay if anyone show me with the matchups why she is one tier highter

You wanted matchup numbers? Here they are with comparisons:
(Taken from the most recent matchup discussions for both characters)
http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/johnny-cage-mu-chart.25726/
http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/sonyas-match-ups.25582/

I cannot chime in on any matchup information except for Kitana which I believe to be 6-4 in her favor, but these lists have it at 5-5 so it would make no difference. To give my opinion on any other matchup would be overstepping my bounds as I do not play any other character serious enough to be able to do so.

Matchup ------ Sonya - Cage --- Diff
===================================================
Baraka: ------- 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Cyber Sub Zero: 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Cyblax: ------- 6-4 --- 4-6 --- -2
Cyrax: -------- 5-5 --- 4-6 --- -1
Ermac: -------- 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Freddy: ------- 3-7 --- 3-7 --- 0
Jade: --------- 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Jax: ---------- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Johnny Cage: -- 6-4 --- XXX --- X
Kabal: -------- 4-6 --- 3-7 --- -1
Kano: --------- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Kenshi: ------- 3-7 --- 3-7 --- 0
Kitana: ------- 5-5 --- 5-5 --- 0
Kung Lao: ----- 5-5 --- 6-4 --- +1
Liu Kang: ----- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Mileena: ------ 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Nightwolf: ---- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Noob Saibot: -- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Quan Chi: ----- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Raiden: ------- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Rain: --------- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Reptile: ------ 7-3 --- 6-4 --- -1
Scorpion: ----- 7-3 --- 7-3 --- 0
Sektor: ------- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Shang Tsung: -- 6-4 --- 5-5 --- -1
Sheeva: ------- 6-4 --- 7-3 --- +1
Sindel: ------- 5-5 --- 6-4 --- +1
Skarlet: ------ 5-5 --- 5-5 --- 0
Smoke: -------- 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Sonya: -------- XXX --- 4-6 --- X
Stryker: ------ 6-4 --- 6-4 --- 0
Sub Zero: ----- 5-5 --- 4-6 --- -1
===================================================
MATCHUP DIFFERENCE: -13 plus Sonya wins against Cage in their matchup.

 

[Death]

Claude VonStroke

Freddy: 3-7
Kenshi: 3-7
Kabal: 4-6

Sonya beating Cage is debatable. Ill find out more about this MU at FF.

 

[redeyes]

why are sonya players such down players? you guys are starting to sound like brady no offense tom.

Sonya is fucking broken people face it. she is like top 3/4 in the game. where cage is around 8/7.

sonya has a safe armored laucher. do you forget that? safe & armored name 1 other person who has that in MK
an istant air dive kick that makes people 2nd guess poking along with the Armored kart wheel doing the same.
the moment she touches you with a d4 youre in for a world of trouble cause that when shit goes to hell for the other player and you have to start playing her guessing game.
she has 50% midscreen combos that can be ended into a reset for a number of broken options. f1 and be +1 overhead tackle for an unbreakable 15%
dash out of MS and
f4,
b1,2
,3,1
grab
d4 again

does no one see how utterly broken she is? this isnt the time of MLG anahimem anymore. Cage isnt top 5 there is no cage band wagon anymore that died off. im not saying cage is bad hes a great character but sonya just has so many better options then him to try and put them in the same tier.

to the guy who said he would pick cages job over sonya anyday.
how about the day sonya throws out that standing 1 when you go for yours and you eat 30% into a reset? thats going to happen everytime you both try and jab

Also did i mention how broken her uppercut is? that shit is lightening fast and has an amazing hitbox on it.
cages is good too but not as good as her imo.

her zoning is effing broken too. no matter where she is on the screen shes deadly still. unless youre a god like zoner you need to fear the onion ring due to the insane recovery on it & it travels pretty fast too.

thats just my 2 cents.
the sonya community needs to stop being down players. sonya is broken as shit. maybe as people figure her out more she may drop down to A+ tier but until then she is defiantly S tier and not A+ with johnny.

 

[HGTV DrFlash44]

Sonya is an overall better character character than cage. They both have really good pressure, but sonya gets hers way easier. Infact a blocked cartwheel leaving her at -3 leads to pressure, because of the immense amount of options you have it such as ex cartwheel or instant air divekick. Once you have your opponent respecting this (and if they don't you will just do 100% to them until they learn to respect it. Because of this sonya gets pressure so much easier. as we all know ms f1 advances so much and leaves sonya at advantage giving her even more options than the blocked cartwheel so free pressure basically. Also they have to respect your ability to do cartwheel after ms f1 so it might seem like more advantage and if you don't respect it you are just getting hit into cartwheel right into free pressure. Plus sonya can from full screen go ms f1 ex carthweel, which can't really be wiff punished due to the super armor on the ex carwheel. So basically free pressure from full screen. Ex cartwheel in general has to be respected and the only way to really punish it is njp which is punishable so the risk reward is in sonya's favor. Plus sonya's d4 has amazing range and is uninterruptible into ms f1 giving free pressure from far away. This is why she is a whole level above cage. They both have amazing pressure, but sonya gets her so much easier and just to top it off high/low 50 50s after combos, an actual projectile, more damage, and a divekick that can be made basically safe and grants full combo on hit.

 

[DJ L Toro]

Ok i've recently talked to Dizzy about MU's and he has cages bad Mu's as...

Kabal - 3-7
Kenshi - 2-8
Sonya - 4-6
Sub Zero - 4-6
Freddy 4-6 or 3-7 can't remember.
Kitana -4-6 (Bit, and khaotic also said this.)

If these are wrong Dizzy please correct. Also MIT agreed with these numbers as well I think

I talked to Blake the other day and he said Sonya loses to

Kabal 4-6 or 7/3
Kenshi -4-6
Freddy -4-6 or 7/3

So according to two of the to players of each character Cage has double the bad Mu's that sonya has. If that's the case He's not in her tier. Now if other top sonya players like Riu48 and Death disagree that's fine. I'm going but what i've recently been told.

Evil_Riu48
No response has been made to any point of my arguments concerning botch characters' tools for achieving certain purposes. sonya is a better character across the board and is a tier above cage.
what Calude said here is what i said on matchups with numbers. sonya clearly fares better even in their shared bad matchups.
you can donate my $20 to the american cancer society. please post a screen shot of a donation reciept/confimation/etc
https://www.cancer.org/involved/donate/donateonlinenow/index

 

[Peckapowa]

she beats reptile and cage doesnt? her cartwheel is only -3

 

[THTB]

Everyone knows Sonya is better than Cage. That is obvious. The argument is them being in the same tier. Which I think they are. Both A+ but Sonya on the higher end and Cage on the lower

This.

IMO Sonya isn't among the top tier. Right outside, yes, but not quite there. In the same tier as Cage for sure, but as Death said, he is on the lower end compared to her being on the higher end.

 

[Death]

This.

IMO Sonya isn't among the top tier. Right outside, yes, but not quite there. In the same tier as Cage for sure, but as Death said, he is on the lower end compared to her being on the higher end.

and they say I downplay *sigh*

 

[Derptile]

and they say I downplay *sigh*

No, this thread is now about me getting $20.

Go away.

 

[Mikemetroid]

I agree with Derptile

 

[Death]

I agree with Derptile

You would

 

[Mikemetroid]

You would

Its easier to agree with someone then write up what I think. gg.

unless am I agreeing to something else then his first post in the thread?

- cage has 8 frame jab which is +3 on block and has better hitbox for anti air and as a normal, I would choose cages jab anyday over sonyas.
To get the +3 you have to jail the 11f1, otherwise you can just crouch and interrupt the string. 1 also does not beat out jump kicks.
- cage does more chip damage as opposed to raw damage which you can break and which the opponent receives meter for taking. cage will deal damage without giving you any meter.
Cage's pressure < Sonya's Pressure. The chip damage doesn't mean shit when someone can break 2 f3s back to back.
- kung lao blocks her d4 ms and she will get interrupted for full combo, her pressure has holes which cage doesnt have, her strings have holes in it and she deals with low hitboxes which cage doesnt because of a 9 frame hitconfirmable mid which chips you to death.
Frametraps like 11f1 and f33exfb don't seem to work on KL either. Then again its easy to bait such spins.
- b3 has crazy hitbox as well and is good for oki, footsies and anti air against jumpkicks as well.
Ok b3 is retarded, I agree.
- her uppercut has better hurtbox but for some reason hers is easier to punish with kung lao crossover tele 3 than cages, probably because cage has low hitbox and she doesnt. so you can argue that cage has just as good an uppercut.
Both uppercuts are 7f.
- already stated cage has low hitbox and she doesnt. you can argue the fact that d4 lowers her hitbox but thats not even 1/3 as good because by that same logic I think scorpion and noob also have low hitbox.
Her hitbox really does not effect her as much as you think. If I can not link a f33b3flipkick mid screen, her hitbox is not that large to make a big enough issue. Cage however likes to hop around and therefore his hitbox is kinda whack.
- her ringtoss is not something that fits her game imo, both cage and sonya shouldnt be htorwing projectiles but get in, and just like cage her projectile wont do her any good against kabal or kenshi.
Yeah but she has an arc kick to catch those who try to trade with her. Cage needs meter to do something like this.

I'm not very experienced in the Sonya matchup Evil_Riu48 , Death, and Derptile. So i'm just kinda babbling right now.

 

[Bildslash]

Ok i've recently talked to Dizzy about MU's and he has cages bad Mu's as...

Kabal - 3-7
Kenshi - 2-8
Sonya - 4-6
Sub Zero - 4-6
Freddy 4-6 or 3-7 can't remember.
Kitana -4-6 (Bit, and khaotic also said this.)

My Cage is just ok, but for the longest time I've considered Sonya a bad MU. Glad to know my suspicions weren't completely wrong.

 

[Big Pampering]

Its easier to agree with someone then write up what I think. gg.

unless am I agreeing to something else then his first post in the thread?


I'm not very experienced in the Sonya matchup Evil_Riu48 , Death, and Derptile. So i'm just kinda babbling right now.

his standing 1 has better anti air abilties than sonya in general, both get beat by jumpkicks but so do most anti air. but standing 1 has better hitbox in general.

chip damage is better than raw damage no matter what, it builds meter and doesnt give meter away to opponent, which is huge.

standing 11f1 can be crouched but the thing is sonya doesnt has a 9 frame mid so people still have to worry about cage even when they crouch because you can do 11 into f33 for example.

her hitbox is not a problem, I didnt say that, but cage DOES have low hitbox so that will be an advantage no matter what. also if by arc kick you mean that little rainbow thing she does, that is full combo on block and doesnt lead to any significant.

any way, both characters dont are good and I dont think it is stupid for anyone to think cage is better than sonya or sonya being better than cage. at the end of the day both characters have a lot of bs, Its so easy to name cheap shit these 2 characters have, so you cant really blame anyone for thinking one character is better than the other

 

[Playpal]

I've already posted my points in the tier list thread. Basically, JC has a lot more 5-5s while Sonya has more winning MUs. JC gets bodied worse by Kabal and Kenshi.

 

[ViciousShogun]

First of all I dont even think Sonya is S tier. I think shes 1 below S and in the same tier as Cage. I do think shes on the higher end of A+ while Cage is on the lower end.

Sonya does better vs Kenshi/Kabal. I personally think Sonya is 3-7 vs Kenshi and 4-6 vs Kabal. Supposedly Cage loses 2-8 to Kenshi and 3-7 to Kabal.

But other than that their not that much different.

This x 1,000,000.

 

[Treadmill]

Sonya is Fucking ridiculous. Where is 16 bit to blow up this absurd downplaying. Bitch is crazy. For all the reasons ppl listed already, she is better than cage.
#IamMuffinMuggers

 

[dribirut]

d4 that is why sonya is better

 

[THTB]

Did anyone read Riu's point?

He knows Sonya is better. He is asking why is she and Cage aren't in the same tier.

 

[Treadmill]

Did anyone read Riu's point?

He knows Sonya is better. He is asking why is she and Cage aren't in the same tier.

Because she's better? I thought that's what most ppl are saying.

I feel like saying "she is better" answers the question.
#IamMuffinMuggers

 

[THTB]

Because she's better? I thought that's what most ppl are saying.

#IamMuffinMuggers

Being better has nothing to do with being in different tiers, unless a character does that much better vs the cast than another character.

 

[Playpal]

Because she's better? I thought that's what most ppl are saying.

#IamMuffinMuggers

This right here.

If a character is better, then why are they in the same tier? You might as well make a tier list on a graph like Marvel.

 

[Treadmill]

Being better has nothing to do with being in different tiers, unless a character does that much better vs the cast than another character.

Okie dokie.

She has less bad/more good matchups. Right? Like for example, ppl debate the cage reptile match...mostly me....but its clear Sonya wrecks reptile. There's 1 for her. Ex cartwheels is a get out of jail card. Her zoning combats other zoners. This alone makes her fair better against the entire cast than cage imo.
#IamMuffinMuggers