$20 for anyone who can stand a smart argument of why cage is not in the same tier as sonya

[Derptile]

guys the argument here is why they are not in the same tier

the argument here is not who is better look like some of you do not know the differents

i ll reply to everyone as fast as i can because i am at work right now

Well, if sonya gets the job better than johnny cage why should they considered in the same tier?

Everyone in the S tier is the best at what they do(Leaving Kabal out of course). Lao has the best mobility, Cyrax has the best damage, Freddy has the best zoning, Kenshi is the best turtler, and Sonya has the best rushdown. Not to mention they all have other options which make them very strong characters

Why should cage be moved up when his rushdown isn't on par with sonya and his options aren't as good?

 

[Evil_Riu48]

Well, if sonya gets the job better than johnny cage why should they considered in the same tier?

that is the thing when you compere their matchups they are very close to each other lets talk about matchups that is what place one character in a highter or lower tier

 

[Derptile]

that is the thing when you compere their matchups they are very close to each other lets to about matchups that is what place one character in a highter or lower tier

Read my edit.

 

[Showtime]

K so here's my sonya is better

Sonya

Safe armor combo starter

Overhead and mid options out of MS are safe on block

7 frame jab for harder to punish specials, 7 frame upper cut with a godlike hitbox stuffs most jump over attemps

D4 reach is too good, on hit or on block you get guaranteed pressure for chip into a 50/50,cancel into cartwheel or use advantage from Ms f1.

And the dive kick, her only unsafe special, beats any poke attempts, and is extremely fast, use with caution but ppl will start respecting it and you get free jumps

Not to mention f4, and her her projectiles

. Cage has great up close pressure and his b3 f32 f4 are all good, but sonya can basically play from anywhere on the screen and be comfertbale in certain matches. And they both basically have the same bad match ups.



Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

 

[NKZero]

Well, if sonya gets the job better than johnny cage why should they considered in the same tier?
Why should cage be moved up when his rushdown isn't on par with sonya and his options aren't as good?

I think Cage has better rush down than Sonya. Sonya's "pressure" is more a mix-up game than 'in your face' rushdown. Cage has a lot of frame traps up close, better touch distance normals (i.e. excluding D4), and it's harder to react to in terms of poking out of pressure. Sonya's options are more like D4-MS, then do I cancel and repeat D4-MS, do I go 50/50, do I cancel into throw. A lot of characters have these guessing games (not to the same potency as Sonya though). Cage is a different animal up close though. He builds meter up close better as well.

 

[Owerbart]

who the f**k made Sonya's Kartwheel -3 on block only?

 

[Evil_Riu48]

@evil_ryu48



Sonya has instant Dive Kick which is 4 frame startup and is always a threat, but very punishable. The threat of Dive Kick gives her opportunities to get jump ins which give her meter, chip damage, and a free mixup. One of the mixup options leave her at +1 on block or 9% on hit. She has EX Cartwheel which has armor and blows through attacks giving her a full combo and a reset which builds nearly half of a bar back. It is also -3 so it is safe. If it is blocked and she has another bar, there is always the threat of another one so your opponent has to be careful poking. That hesitation gives her d4~ms into mixup and chip damage and meter build.. All of her combos push her opponent closer to the corner. Sure, her jabs hit high, but they are not her main pressure tool. d4~ms is. Sonya's uppercut is among the best in the game. It even hits behind her and comes out extremely fast.

Sonya can zone safely where Cage cannot unless they are fullscreen.

The difference is that in Sonya's bad matchups, she has EX Cartwheel and that armor that allows her to get in where Cage cannot. She also has the threat of Dive Kick to give her jump in opportunities that other characters do not have.

.

about green part where you talk about the dive kick lets get someting clear first because this is some thing many people are wrong about

sonya's dive kick startup at 4 fremes but she has to be 5-6 fremes in the air making here fastest dive kick 9-10 fremes it is not possible to make a dive kick to come out any faster than that no matter how low it looks it is still coming out at the same speed 9-10 fremes . .. it look lower because when you go from a crouching to a jumping animation the first 6 fremes are lower in the air than when you go from a standing to a jumping animation

you say that sonya can zone safely? this is another thing people are wrong in this community why ? just because a character has good recover on a projectile does not mean the character will be able to keep anyone out does it ? she does not have a zoning game she has a good projectile to projectile trading game which mean she will will against many characters a projectile war because of her fast recover but her projectile has slow startup and can easily be jump on reaction forcing her to block a deep jumping kick i do not call that zoning do you?


in the only bad matchup that the ex cartwheel helps a lot is on the kenshi matchup and you are talking about the threat of dive kick to jump in the truth is that the threat you are talking about in her bad matchups is only good on paper

 

[Evil_Riu48]

guys i want to see matchup numbers

 

[Konqrr]

about green part where you talk about the dive kick lets get someting clear first because this is some thing many people are wrong about

sonya's dive kick startup at 4 fremes but she has to be 5-6 fremes in the air making here fastest dive kick 9-10 fremes it is not possible to make a dive kick to come out any faster than that no matter how low it looks it is still coming out at the same speed 9-10 fremes . .. it look lower because when you go from a crouching to a jumping animation the first 6 fremes are lower in the air than when you go from a standing to a jumping animation

you say that sonya can zone safely? this is another thing people are wrong in this community why ? just because a character has good recover on a projectile does not mean the character will be able to keep anyone out does it ? she does not have a zoning game she has a good projectile to projectile trading game which mean she will will against many characters a projectile war because of her fast recover but her projectile has slow startup and can easily be jump on reaction forcing her to block a deep jumping kick i do not call that zoning do you?


in the only bad matchup that the ex cartwheel helps a lot is on the kenshi matchup and you are talking about the threat of dive kick to jump in the truth is that the threat you are talking about in her bad matchups is only good on paper

I know there are jump frames in the Dive Kick before she can do it, but once she activates it, it is 4 frames.

This thread is about Sonya being better than Cage or not. Is her zoning better? Yes.

The ex cartwheel is her meal ticket. Armor and one of the best special moves in the game hands down.

 

[DJ L Toro]

since you said "to anyone who does this" (meaning even though you already owe derptile 20 bucks) i'll chime in too.

General gameplay (+sonya)
Cage requires the player to do a lot more. He is required to out-footsie everyone and roughly 2/3 of the cast is designed to counter that.
Sonya doesnt have that issue (well... not nearly as bad) because she has attacking mobility tools that she can combo out of that reset the opponent instead of leaving her/him full screen.

Armor (+sonya)
Cage's is pretty bad, only on startup, punishable and leaves the opponent full screen on hit
Sonyas is broken, full armor, safe, combos into a reset

Projectiles (even)
Splooge ball has one of the worst recoveries in the game and the arc makes it useless anywhere but full screen where it's still very bad. EX splooge is better as a round ender and for frame advantage, but many characters are not jailed into blocking it.
Ring toss has one of the best recoveries in the game meaning sonya will almost never strait up trade projectiles with anyone. Ex ring is not duckable, otherwise it's not fantastic.

Dash Speed is about the same
they're both good at keeping people in their pressure, though cage is better
Cage's f2 is the most inconvenient placing for a move in the game.

Matchups (++sonya)
Cage has 6 bad matchups and a lot of even ones.
Sonya has 4 losing matchups, but sindel is very beatable if played right, so only 3 bad matchups. She wins most of her remaining matchups and only goes even in a handfull. the matchups that sonya loses so does cage, but sonya does better in all of them.
Sonya only really gets killed by S tier and higher (even then manhandles the other 2 on s tier), cage gets beat by S, S+, A and B characters

Xray (+cage, but less important than the other things)
Cage's is flashier, faster startup, High damage, and can combo out of it, but it's one of the most punishable in the game.
Sonyas is one of the least damaging, biggest wastes of meter, but can catch someone at any point and is safe on block. also does chip on block, so it can end a match, though i'm not sure why one wouldnt just use 3 ex cartwheels instead.

all in all sonya is leagues ahead of cage. well enough to be a tier higher, especially because noone below S gives her any trouble (except for MAYBE sindel, a tiny bit 5.4-4.6)

 

[Evil_Riu48]

This thread is about Sonya being better than Cage or not. Is her zoning better? Yes.

.

no man the thread is not about sonya been better than cage or cage been better than sonya .. .is about they doing very similar against the whole cast which in my book should place them in the same tier that is what this thread is about

 

[Death]

DJ L Toro

Sonya actually beats sindel. That MU is much different offline.

 

[RTM2004]

Sonya definitely does better than Johnny Cage against Kenshi, Kabal and Freddy the match ups they both suffer from.

Johnny Cage with or without meter against Sub-Zero is much harder than it is for Sonya to escape.

Like what Temjiin once said like a year ago, that Brit lag LOL, the fact that Sonya's Dive Kick auto corrects into a combo is broken.

 

[BillStickers]

spoiler: nobody is getting $20.

 

[Evil_Riu48]

i am still waiting for the person who is going to compered sonya all of sonya's matchups with all of cage's matchups and show me why she should be one tier highter with the matchup numbers

i have to go now i ll check the thread again tomorrow or later tonight if i have time i am man of my word i do will pay if anyone show me with the matchups why she is one tier highter

 

[ShadowBeatz]

Kinda feel like Derptile should be twenty dolla richa...

 

[Big Pampering]

I wanna hear this explanation.

first of all I don't think sonya is half the character she is without meter. second her pressure is not as good or as solid as cage, and with that I mean sonya has most strings you can interrupt. and her normals dont have the range cage has except for d4, his b3 is just OP in a lot of situation, like oki, anti air and footsies.

cage has and 8 frame jab but that jab has better hitbox and is actually plus on block, AN 8 FRAME JAB THAT IS +3 ON BLOCK. you know how stupid that is.

next to that he doesnt really deal with lowhitbox characters because he has a 9 frame chipping and hitconfirmable string which you can extend with ex fireball, which helps you build another bar because you will do more chip damage. sonya has some trouble with low hitboxes.

cage has the best anti air in the game imo.

he has armor on ex kick and invincibility on ex nutpunch which is even better than armor because you dont take damage and it actually beats armor.

cage has one of the best x ray,

exerything cage does ends in reset nutpunch and imo cage does more damage than sonya because after reset he can chip a lot more than sonya while building meter, while sonya does big raw damage, but that also helps the opponent build meter which sonya doesnt.

I think cage does better in freddy, kung lao and kabal matchup imo, sonya does do better in kenshi matchup and cyrax. as for the other matchups I think cage does better than sonya. there is no sonya player that really impresses me like dizzy and curbo have. maybe its the player, but I think cage has something to do with it as well.

 

[Mr. Mileena]

First of all I dont even think Sonya is S tier. I think shes 1 below S and in the same tier as Cage. I do think shes on the higher end of A+ while Cage is on the lower end.

Sonya does better vs Kenshi/Kabal. I personally think Sonya is 3-7 vs Kenshi and 4-6 vs Kabal. Supposedly Cage loses 2-8 to Kenshi and 3-7 to Kabal.

But other than that their not that much different.

You are the biggest downplayer ever

 

[Derptile]

i am still waiting for the person who is going to compered sonya all of sonya's matchups with all of cage's matchups and show me why she should be one tier highter with the matchup numbers

i have to go now i ll check the thread again tomorrow or later tonight if i have time i am man of my word i do will pay if anyone show me with the matchups why she is one tier highter

Cage loses to Sub Zero, Kitana, Kenshi, Freddy, and kabal.

Sonya loses to Kenshi, Freddy, and Kabal.

Did I win?

 

[Big Pampering]

Sonya
-Instant air divekick for a shit-ton of damage
-has a 7 frame jab
-Ex cartwheel is just broken and destroys the footsies game
-She does more damage than Cage
-touching your opponent with a d4 is a free MS which leads to a free mix up either being at +1, an overhead, or building half a bar of meter
-Ring toss is a viable zoning strategy
-d4 has retarded range and lowers your hitbox
-Better uppercut

I want that 20 dollaz

- cage has 8 frame jab which is +3 on block and has better hitbox for anti air and as a normal, I would choose cages jab anyday over sonyas.
- cage does more chip damage as opposed to raw damage which you can break and which the opponent receives meter for taking. cage will deal damage without giving you any meter.
- kung lao blocks her d4 ms and she will get interrupted for full combo, her pressure has holes which cage doesnt have, her strings have holes in it and she deals with low hitboxes which cage doesnt because of a 9 frame hitconfirmable mid which chips you to death.
- b3 has crazy hitbox as well and is good for oki, footsies and anti air against jumpkicks as well.
- her uppercut has better hurtbox but for some reason hers is easier to punish with kung lao crossover tele 3 than cages, probably because cage has low hitbox and she doesnt. so you can argue that cage has just as good an uppercut.
- already stated cage has low hitbox and she doesnt. you can argue the fact that d4 lowers her hitbox but thats not even 1/3 as good because by that same logic I think scorpion and noob also have low hitbox.
- her ringtoss is not something that fits her game imo, both cage and sonya shouldnt be htorwing projectiles but get in, and just like cage her projectile wont do her any good against kabal or kenshi.

 

[SaJa]

f0xy plays both, he said sonya > JC. Look legit

 

[HangNail]

The thing that really drives sonya as a better character is simple, where cage gets damage she simply gets more. Every D4 is a mixup and at an extremely far range. Also she has the dive kick which crushes all hitbox lowering low attacks such as D1 (which is a special low), D3 etc. also whenever she has a bar, you're always at risk when attacking because of the cartwheel. And her ring blast is a viable zoning tool. Cage on the other hand, sticks on to the opponent better than Sonya and builds meter considerably faster. However, better up close pressure doesn't compensate for the lack of zoning, mobility, footsies, armor, and versatility Sonya has. Sonya is GREAT at everything. While Cage is only EXCELLENT at one thing, and that is pressure and footsies. Not to mention Sonya has a shit ton more damage than cage does. To conclude, Sonya can simply do everything except pressure considerably better than Cage. 20 dollars or not this is my view. They are both excellent characters though.

 

[Death]

f0xy plays both, he said sonya > JC. Look legit

Everyone knows Sonya is better than Cage. That is obvious. The argument is them being in the same tier. Which I think they are. Both A+ but Sonya on the higher end and Cage on the lower

 

[SaJa]

So the real question is : "where does Stier stop, where does A+tier start ?"

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

first of all I don't think sonya is half the character she is without meter. second her pressure is not as good or as solid as cage, and with that I mean sonya has most strings you can interrupt. and her normals dont have the range cage has except for d4, his b3 is just OP in a lot of situation, like oki, anti air and footsies.

cage has and 8 frame jab but that jab has better hitbox and is actually plus on block, AN 8 FRAME JAB THAT IS +3 ON BLOCK. you know how stupid that is.

next to that he doesnt really deal with lowhitbox characters because he has a 9 frame chipping and hitconfirmable string which you can extend with ex fireball, which helps you build another bar because you will do more chip damage. sonya has some trouble with low hitboxes.

cage has the best anti air in the game imo.

he has armor on ex kick and invincibility on ex nutpunch which is even better than armor because you dont take damage and it actually beats armor.

cage has one of the best x ray,

exerything cage does ends in reset nutpunch and imo cage does more damage than sonya because after reset he can chip a lot more than sonya while building meter, while sonya does big raw damage, but that also helps the opponent build meter which sonya doesnt.

I think cage does better in freddy, kung lao and kabal matchup imo, sonya does do better in kenshi matchup and cyrax. as for the other matchups I think cage does better than sonya. there is no sonya player that really impresses me like dizzy and curbo have. maybe its the player, but I think cage has something to do with it as well.

The thing about sonya though is that she dominates the neutral game. She controls a lot of space in front of her with d4, which if blocked or hits goes into military stance, which builds sonya a lot of meter (which we will get to in a minute) or gets some damage while staying safe even on a wrong guess. She also can use ms 2 and even fwd 1 ( which can be cancelled into cartwheel even on whiff) to advance and control space in front of her. I dont see how you can say she shouldnt be using her projectile, it is very fast and has some of the best recovery in the game. She can use this to control the space outside the range of her other tools, except against zoning characters obviously. Yes her strings all hit high, but opponents cannot really just poke her because of instant divekick, which, while risky, leads to big damage. Now, the big killer. With all the projectile throwing, and military stance block strings, sonya builds ridiculous amounts of meter. d4 ms f1 cartwheel builds like half a bar. This gives sonya access to one of the most devestating moves in the game, ex cartwheel. Ex cartwheel can go through all of most characters footsies tools, some of them even on reaction. This move must be respected.... and if you start respecting it you allow sonya to d4 more and build even more meter. Sonya also has some of the best options for getting out of bad situations in the game, starting with ex cartwheel. She also has a 7 frame jab to interupt pressure, and if you want to start d3ing to beat that, she has iAdk. She also has an overhead that is neutral on block and gives a safe jump on hit,the best uppercut in the game, and an air grab. Cage simply doesnt have the dominating tools that sonya has.