Injustice General Discussion

[Prinz]

colt Wonder Woman is too slow.

 

[Bi-on-iC]

Written interview with Ed:
http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/10/22/ed-boon-and-injustice-for-all

 

[Cibernetico]

Out of curiosity, is it true that Injustice is being tested by a competitive gamer? I keep hearing that this is true but I've never seen any links or stories confirming it. Or was this just always a rumor?

 

[aldazo]

Out of curiosity, is it true that Injustice is being tested by a competitive gamer? I keep hearing that this is true but I've never seen any links or stories confirming it. Or was this just always a rumor?

I read 16bit is testing it.

 

[shaowebb]

Odd thought, but didn't Parasite simply leech energy and health from his enemies to get stronger overall? I never recall him getting anyone else's superpowers from it. I just remember Superman being considered so powerful that it made him incredibly strong. Did they change him to be more like A.M.A.Z.O. or something?

Just thought I'd bring it up since someone mentioned Parasite for Shang Tsung and I don't think Parasite works that way in the comics unless they changed him. At most he could drain meter/health while turning off your specials, but I don't think he ever stole powers outright. Someone let me know if this changed because I only followed him in the 90's.

 

[Reedoms]

Odd thought, but didn't Parasite simply leech energy and health from his enemies to get stronger overall? I never recall him getting anyone else's superpowers from it. I just remember Superman being considered so powerful that it made him incredibly strong. Did they change him to be more like A.M.A.Z.O. or something?

When introduced in Firestorm, he could leech powers/life force from people. Ended up nearly killing Firestorms girl-buddy and stole her abilities for a few hours until he exhausted them all.

 

[shaowebb]

Sooooo did he have to nearly absorb all of someone's life force to get a few hours of zip zap powers then? Even still someone was taking serious liberties with the character's ability there, but hey canon isn't about whether it makes sense its just about whether its been done. Case in point Wolverine beating Iron Fist in a no powers test of martial arts :/

 

[Killzone]

Case in point Wolverine beating Iron Fist in a no powers test of martial arts :/

Because Wolverine is more skilled than Iron Fist and Captain America.
Wolverine is over 120 years old and knows various kinds of fighting techniques. He has mastered plenty. He just prefers to slice 'n dice.

 

[shaowebb]

Because Wolverine is more skilled than Iron Fist and Captain America.
Wolverine is over 120 years old and knows various kinds of fighting techniques. He has mastered plenty. He just prefers to slice 'n dice.

Iron Fist's thing is he is the penultimate martial artist for Marvel though. I know Wolverine's backstory, but this is Iron Fist's entire character here. Wolverine mastered a whole bunch of styles, but Iron Fist with no powers out fought a dragon with pure kung fu. No healing, no claws, nothing. His entire character is based off of being ridiculously head and shoulders above the rest at hand to hand.

Sparring match vs Wolverine and Iron Fist loses? I just can't buy it no matter how fanboy the writer was. Its character assassination. It'd be like Wolverine beating Hawkeye at archery because Samurai were also known archers simply due to the fact that he's old enough to have practiced. It just comes off contrived and forced when writers do this to characters.

 

[Reedoms]

Because Wolverine is more skilled than Iron Fist and Captain America.
Wolverine is over 120 years old and knows various kinds of fighting techniques. He has mastered plenty. He just prefers to slice 'n dice.

Iron Fist is from a mystical land that is completely devoted to martial arts and has beaten the immortal dragon outside their land.
Wolverine is Snikt Bub.

 

[shaowebb]

Iron Fist is from a mystical land that is completely devoted to martial arts and has the beaten the immortal dragon outside their land.
Wolverine is Snikt Bub.

Exactly. You can be a martial artist and even a damned good one, but lets be honest here about Wolverine...he's a weapon user. He's 90% claw oriented in offense and a creature devoted to instinct. He uses martial arts, but he is not dedicated to them so much as uses core aspects of the ones he was trained in to supplement his up close game with people. That works, but I've done Kung Fu enough to tell you there is a difference between a core martial artist and a master.

Guys who just augment their offense and rely on a healing factor like Wolverine aren't exactly focused on strategic defense and controlling their opponent the way masters who tossed guys like me around were. Our 4th degrees would do stuff just to lure your feet far enough apart to off balance you with crap as simple as slaps or a passing bump with their hip as they rolled out of the way of stuff. You can't bullrush like Wolverine against masters. Those guys measure every strike and pose of your body to lure areas of you into positions just to weaken your assets and destroy your foundations. Present an opening left and step back with a left block just to pull your right side out too far to make you off balance etc and sof forth. Its like chess and they plan 20 moves ahead.

Every waking moment of Iron Fist's life since childhood was dedicated to that brand of Kung Fu and every moment as a hero has been spent using his training to augment that style of stuff. Wolverine spent his martial arts enhancing his offense's impact and let healing factor largely carry his mistakes. He didn't practice sparring he practiced killing shots.

When they sparred it was no claws no Magic fist and pure martial prowess. It was completely lazy writing and just another instance of Marvel's writers acting like fanboys that accounts for him losing a sparring match that way.

 

[Killzone]

You can be a martial artist and even a damned good one, but lets be honest here about Wolverine...he's a weapon user.

Batman has mastered 1337 fighting techniques. Doesn't change the fact that the Joker hit him once or twice.
A guy walks his whole life. Doesn't change the fact that he stumbles now and then.

Just because Wolverine doesn't use his martial arts very often (and who would, if he had adamantium claws), doesn't change the fact that he has some serious skills and that he has demonstrated them in the comics every now and then. Beating Iron Fist is a high end feat for him. Did he totally humiliate him and make clear that he is clearly the better martial artist? No.

Captain America tagged Spider-Man and everyone was like "WOW, GODLY CAPTAIN AMERICA CAN STALEMATE SPIDER-MAN!"
And then you have a moment where Captain America faces Venom, who loses control for a short moment and the very first (few tons) hit from there is enough to knock Cap out and nearly kill him in the process.

What tells us that? Super-powers. It all depends on them. Spider-Man is able to kill humans - even peak humans with bare strikes and kicks, since he has that kind of devastating power. Captain America would never be able to surive a fight with Spider-Man, no matter how skilled he is.

Wolverine VS Iron Fist and they both don't use their trademarks (claws + Iron Fist)?
Wolverine all day long, since he can't trigger off his other super-powers. He doesn't only have the claws and the healing factor, he actually also has enhanced strenght, speed and agility, above the averages peak human, since otherwise he would never be able to move freely with his adamantium skeleton.
Add all these things to his martial arts experience and you have someone who surpasses Iron Fist, since he is a peak human with his fancy Iron Fist which he wasn't allowed to use.

It's that simple.

 

[shaowebb]

I'll let you believe that, but the fact is the writer did try to humiliate Iron Fist and discredit him on the comic with that. Wolverine makes a comment about him only going like 10% or some ridiculously garbage comment like that. Also he only has enhanced senses, claws and healing. He doesn't have any enhanced strength, speed or agility at all. Never has.

Like I said, there are a lot of reasons I prefer DC to Marvel and one of the biggest is that DC doesn't fanboy with their writing nearly as hard as Marvel does. They know its okay to not say their favorite guy is the best at everything just because they like him. Hell Batman got out fought by Karate Kid once because the writers realized that was all the character had and they had to play it up. If you don't build anyone as being any better at anything than someone then they never struggle and without struggle there is no believable conflict. Its why it was so good when Batman won using pure strategy and stuff outside of martial arts after the dude collapsed his lung without breaking a sweat.

Good writers write within character and bad ones overglorify popular characters beyond their range of abilities just to please their fans. You can side with Wolverine on this if you want, but its outside his character scope.

To put this to rest here are the OFFICIAL stats on the two character's fighting abilities from Marvel's own website. The bars in blue are the official rating of the characters ability levels and the ones in red are the fan ratings.

As you can see Iron Fist officially is the better hand to hand fighter in terms of ability hands down. Only the Fans are ranking Wolverine at maximum levels due to their love of him. The writer was literally breaking canon in that fight just to please that crowd since the stats show in terms of a pure hand to hand exchange Wolverine loses.

 

[Playpal]

Wolverine got his ass handed to him by squirrel girl in that same issue, so I would take that whole scene with a grain of salt.

I also doubt the writers take into consideration the power bars when writing.

 

[shaowebb]

Wolverine got his ass handed to him by squirrel girl in that same issue, so I would take that whole scene with a grain of salt.

I also doubt the writers take into consideration the power bars when writing.

Pretty much your post sums up everything about that issue and its writer. They don't take anything into account about the character's and what they are supposedly able to do or not in matchups. They just write for the sake of writing the character's they like. Its why I keep saying Marvel is going to end up used up in ideas (if you can't call them that already) if they don't stop talking about heroes and who would win in a fight between heroes. They need to start creating and investing in villains.

 

[Killzone]

Wolverine makes a comment about him only going like 10% or some ridiculously garbage comment like that.

Trash-talking. Tends to happen.
Wolverine is probably the most manly guy with the most testesterone in Marvel. He needs trash-talking to be the Main Man :-D

Also he only has enhanced senses, claws and healing. He doesn't have any enhanced strength, speed or agility at all. Never has.

His entire skeleton is made out of adamantium and adamantium is heavy. Wolverine is a heavy ass character, yet he is fast and agile.
There was a moment in comics, where Deadpool was holding - I think - a nun up in the air on a bridge and yelling at her, talking about his enhanced strenght which came along with his healing factor.

Take also into consideration that - if you have muscles (and Wolverine and Iron Fist do) you tend to gas out more quickly, because muscles need more oxygen, and when you gas out, you don't get stronger in the process, which should be logical :-7
But with a healing factor, you don't fatigue as fast as others, so he has even more advantages over Iron Fist, who is - in the end of the day only a peak human.

If you really want some bullshit, then take a look at Wolverine fighting against Gladiator for six days :-7 Or cutting through him in a different instance, although I'm not quite sure about the canonity of these two occasions.

Like I said, there are a lot of reasons I prefer DC to Marvel and one of the biggest is that DC doesn't fanboy with their writing nearly as hard as Marvel does. They know its okay to not say their favorite guy is the best at everything just because they like him

I actually had to laugh at this one.
You do know about Superman and Batman, right?

Superman was the first superhero and most of the writers grew up with him, so they made sure that he would stand above everything. He was weak to magic, but during the years that weakness faded and faded. He built telepathic resistances to be prepared for everything. He outshines basically everyone in the DC Universe on a regular basis, simply because he is Superman and DC writers are very, very biased.

Hell, you can't even stop him with Kryptonite anymore. (Superman VS Batman, when Poison Ivy took control over Superman and Superman VS Superboy-Prime).

Hell Batman got out fought by Karate Kid once because the writers realized that was all the character had and they had to play it up.

Yes, because Karate Kid is a PIS-character from the future who can defeat Kryptonians thanks to his martial arts skills.
Karate Kid is a stupid ass character (I don't like DC comics) and he is supposed to defeat Batman without any real problems.
Batman also got his ass handed to him by Lady Shiva, who is a better martial artist than him and Lady Shiva doesn't stand a chance against Karate Kid, who can destroy mountains by punching them.

If you don't build anyone as being any better at anything than someone then they never struggle and without struggle there is no believable conflict. Its why it was so good when Batman won using pure strategy and stuff outside of martial arts after the dude collapsed his lung without breaking a sweat.

They never struggle?
Flash once saved 500.000 people in 0.00001 microseconds or something like that. For that he needed to travel 13 trillion times faster than the speed of light. DC comics are stupid.

You also keep talking about Batman, when it's actually Batgod. Batgod also kicked Wonder Woman once and took away her breathing for a moment. Batman also took out the entire Justice League out during the Tower of Babel. (Well his methods did it) Batman is the Doctor Doom of DC comics.

Good writers write within character and bad ones overglorify popular characters beyond their range of abilities just to please their fans.

My opinion still stays. Wolverine is faster, stronger and more agile than Iron Fist if we take a look at all the speed and agility feats of them both. Iron Fist is more grounded, while Wolverine is all over the place in a fight, and all that while having additional 105 pounds from his adamantium skeleton.
It's easier to believe that Wolverine defeats Iron Fist, than Hulk defeating the Sentry, which is uber-pathetic and luckily for the sake of the comics Greg Pak somehow managed to downgrade the Sentry enough so that the Hulk would be able to win.

To put this to rest here are the OFFICIAL stats on the two character's fighting abilities from Marvel's own website. The bars in blue are the official rating of the characters ability levels and the ones in red are the fan ratings.

No serious comic book reader takes these showings seriously, because for the most part, they're very outdated and most of the time not even true.
According to these ratings the Sentry is not faster than the speed of light, even though he showcased it otherwise many times.

Pretty much your post sums up everything about that issue and its writer. They don't take anything into account about the character's and what they are supposedly able to do or not in matchups. They just write for the sake of writing the character's they like. Its why I keep saying Marvel is going to end up used up in ideas (if you can't call them that already) if they don't stop talking about heroes and who would win in a fight between heroes. They need to start creating and investing in villains.

Wolverine VS Squirrel Girl was pure fan-service.
At first she caught him off guard with her "super powers" (LOL) and on the other hand Squrriel Girl is known for having the ability to defeat guys like Thanos, Doctor Doom and hell even THE ONE ABOVE ALL without even trying. It's a running joke.

And I'm not so sure about Marvel not coming up with new innovative stuff. You're basically downgrading Marvel and brining up such an argument, even though DC comics are far more straight forward, when it comes to their characters:

- They have Superman and Supergirl, Superboy, Power Girl, Krypto the Superdog, Supermonkey, Supergiraffee and so on...
- They have Batman and Robin 1 (Dick Grayson), Robin 2 (Jason Todd), Robin 3 (Tim Drake), Robin 4 (Damian Wayne) and few more female Robins. Then you also have Batwoman and Batgirl and other characters who are basically the same deal.
- They have Green Lantern 1 (Alan Scott), Green Lantern 2 (Hal Jordan), Green Lantern 3 (Guy Gardner), Green Lantern 4 (John Stewart), Green Lantern 5 (Kyle Rayner) and all the million other Green Lanterns and other Green Lantern colors and the million characters there.

I could go on and on. And their villains are cheesy and bad.

You say that the Marvel writing is bad and is going to end up in a deadlock and at the same time you have DC and characters like the Joker, who is basically the biggest abnomination in comic book history, since he is such a bad, plot-driven character and most of the people still love him.

Joker is a skinny man, who would die instantly after taking a serious beating by Batman or most of the Gotham Villains who have brute force to back it up, yet Joker is allowed to continue, simply because he is an iconic character, for some reason.
Joker kills 1000 people and while being caught no one kills him, simply for the sake of saving thousands of other lives. He breaks out and kills some more people. Batman doesn't do anything about it. It really is pathetic and Batman and the Joker are - in my own opinion - the two worst comic book characters ever.

But I do like Red Hood and Nightwing, since for me - they're more believable. Especially Red Hood, since he doesn't shy away from using guns and actually killing the bad guys, since that's the way it should be, but then again ... someone like the Joker would die instantly, if the writing in these comic books would be any good at all (and such writing often happens in Marvel comics, and that's why I prefer them).

The only good writing I ever saw in Batman comics, was when Nightwing actually killed the Joker, by beating the shit out of him.
And what happened? More bad writing. Batgod came along and resurrected the Joker. "I DON'T WANT YOU TO BE LIKE HIM, DICK!"
Nightwing is a good character. He actually really has a dark side up to him. He let Tarantula (I think that was her name) kill Blockbuster and he didn't do much to stop her from raping him later on B-) Nightwing is my boy!

/RANT OVER!

And since you also tend to write a lot I think you won't have much against such a long post
But yeah, keep in mind that I'm a Marvel guy all the way, so you can explain some parts of my post by biasm if you want so.

 

[Reedoms]

The only good writing I ever saw in Batman comics, was when Nightwing actually killed the Joker, by beating the shit out of him.
And what happened? More bad writing. Batgod came along and resurrected the Joker. "I DON'T WANT YOU TO BE LIKE HIM, DICK!"

Did you read Morrison's Batman and Robin run a few years ago? That shit was amazingly written.

Nightwing is a good character. He actually really has a dark side up to him. He let Tarantula (I think that was her name) kill Blockbuster and he didn't do much to stop her from raping him later on B-) Nightwing is my boy

He tried to stop her but he had the living fuck beat out of him and was poisoned. He sorta just passed out and Tarantula raped him while talking in terrible spanglish.

 

[Killzone]

Did you read Morrison's Batman and Robin run a few years ago? That shit was amazingly written.

Yeah, I did - but at that point the entire Batuniverse was already ruined for me.
What worked for me was the whole Nightwing run. I had basically over 130 comics and also the Red Hood stuff, because of his methods.

He tried to stop her but he had the living fuck beat out of him and was poisoned. He sorta just passed out and Tarantula raped him while talking in terrible spanglish.

Is it actually possible to have an erection, while being passed out ?_? Never thought about that.
But yeah, you're right. He was not in the position to do that much about it. It was still strange how they interacted with each other afterwards. He didn't beat the living fuck out of her either.

 

[Reedoms]

Is it actually possible to have an erection, while being passed out ?_? Never thought about that.
But yeah, you're right. He was not in the position to do that much about it. It was still strange how they interacted with each other afterwards. He didn't beat the living fuck out of her either.

Because Tarantula was a self insert of the writer at the time of that.

 

[shaowebb]

Because Tarantula was a self insert of the writer at the time of that.

;_; Self insertion characters in comics...

 

[Playpal]

Wolverine does have super agility or some shit. I remember the first comic I read was an Uncanny X-men TPB. I bought it completely by accident when I was in Gr. 4. I saw the book in a school magazine and thought it was a novel. I was disappointed when I found out it was a comic (strict parents brainwashing me into thinking novels are the ultimate art form). I read it and actually liked it. Anyways, Storm and Wolverine were in the Danger Room (this was when storm had her mohawk). She'd fly right past him at super fast speed and Wolverine would slice off a part of her cape with seemingly little effort. Thought I'd weight in.

 

[Killzone]

Because Tarantula was a self insert of the writer at the time of that.

Can't comment on that one, because of the Sentry, LOL! :-D

 

[shaowebb]

Wolverine does have super agility or some shit. I remember the first comic I read was an Uncanny X-men TPB. I bought it completely by accident when I was in Gr. 4. I saw the book in a school magazine and thought it was a novel. I was disappointed when I found out it was a comic (strict parents brainwashing me into thinking novels are the ultimate art form). I read it and actually liked it. Anyways, Storm and Wolverine were in the Danger Room (this was when storm had her mohawk). She'd fly right past him at super fast speed and Wolverine would slice off a part of her cape with seemingly little effort. Thought I'd weight in.

I'm thinking that was more due to his heightened senses than any agility boost. Guy has ridiculous sense of his surroundings during a fight due to smell. It does give the guy a sort of Daredevil sensory boost to his agility I suppose, but this sort of boost based on senses giving you greater awareness is still limited by physical ability though. Its not like say how Spiderman suddenly became super humanly flexible, and acrobatic.

Still I guess this puts both Wolverine and Iron Fist both up there in heightened agility if awareness boosts come with it. Iron Fist has the heightened sense of his surroundings thing going on from his Kung Fu training teaching him how to perceive the potential actions of his opponents based on body language as well as his magic boosts to those skills. They explained it in the 90's when he dodged a bullet and Spiderman made a crack about what it must have been like training for that.

 

[Rathalos]

 

[STORMS]

Where in the hell did you find this?