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Continuation Rule has GOT to go

garik16

Apprentice
Denzell was rewarded an extra benefit because of himself! lol He 3-0 PL earlier!! what are you talking about. The Denzell PL match was 10x more hype because of the rule. Yeah PL might have run it back in a first to 3 or 5 w/e...but watching that potential come back was way better. Way better brah
Put it another way. In a double elimination rule, you're eliminated when you lose 2 sets - defined as losing a three out of five match. This is why grand finals can have a reset - the player in winners needs to lose two sets to be eliminated.

Continuation randomly changes that - here for example, PL technically lost two 3 out of 5 sets and STILL ADVANCED! He lost to Denzell 3-0, and then lost the first 3 out of 5 games against CD Jr.* The same goes to Denzell who lost 3-1 to Detroit and then 3-1 to PL. But continuation allowed them to play on. And whether you get continuation or not depends upon the totally out of your control circumstance of whether the guys you beat are the ones who make it out of losers.

*Note I am not arguing that CD Jr would've won if not for continuation, since that changes PL's play in the set, just showing how it doesn't make sense.
 

Relaxedstate

PTH|RM Relaxedstate
You're missing the point. To get into Grand finals, you need to win losers finals. Normally to do that you need to win 3 games before your opponent. That would've been the case had CD Jr beaten PL.

Instead, because CD JR lost to PL, Denzell got to win 3 games before PL could win 6. So Denzell got an edge because CD Jr couldn't run it back against PL.

Remember, winning in winners bracket is its OWN REWARD - you stay in winners bracket. Loser in winners bracket is its own punishment - you have to play additional matches to get to grand finals (double as many actually) with little margin for error. There's no need to pile on an extra punishment to the loser.
I see what your saying. I think it is just different.
MLG feels that there is an extra need to pile on extra punishment to the loser when multiple K$s are on the line. Gotta make every round count. It 'seems' unfair that those players had to climb out of deficits...but really the rule kinda rewards there previous achievements.
It could either kill hype...or totally make it more hype. That goes either way so it is kind of moot. Like I said it is different, but nothing we can't get used to and nothing that would probably have changed the outcome too significantly.
 

garik16

Apprentice
Ok but for arguments sake what about the Columbus Grand Finals when REO almost ran it back? They were actually more hype because of the continuation rule.
Were they? Let's see? If there was no continuation (Note the games wouldn't have stayed the same if there was no continuation for sure - for one CD Jr was locked into first game jax by the rule), REO has to win TWO sets in order to win grand finals. What happened?
REO won game 1
CD Jr won game 2
REO won game 3
CD Jr won game 4
REO won game 5.
In continuation rules, this made it 5-4. But guess what? Had there been normal rules, that would've been a BRACKET RESET.
REO won game 6
CD Jr won Game 7

And thus we end with a 1-1 final set with 3 more games potentially to be played. How is that any less hype? In fact, resets are MORE hype. They're also fair since they involve the same double elimination rules that everyone encounters.
 

garik16

Apprentice
I see what your saying. I think it is just different.
MLG feels that there is an extra need to pile on extra punishment to the loser when multiple K$s are on the line. Gotta make every round count. It 'seems' unfair that those players had to climb out of deficits...but really the rule kinda rewards there previous achievements.
It could either kill hype...or totally make it more hype. That goes either way so it is kind of moot. Like I said it is different, but nothing we can't get used to and nothing that would probably have changed the outcome too significantly.
My issue is also that it essentially kills players for taking time to learn from their mistakes. If you don't learn from your mistakes early in your winners match, you not only go to losers, but if you play that player again, you're in a huge hole.

In a normal double elim tourney, you wind up with a player often running it back in losers because they've had time to think and learn about their mistakes. But with continuation, congrats you've learned from your mistakes....but you better have learned perfectly!
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Only losers would hate this rule.

It makes no sense that someone can advance past you and you beat them 5-3 overall or something of that nature.
Our current Evo rules are best of 3 and 5. So potentially... I could beat you in top 8 2-0. and lose to you in losers finals 3-2, yet WIN the overall set 5-2.
Now I understand what you are saying.

I like it for the fact that if you dominate a set... you are rewarded later on if you have to face the same opponent. As your stratgies are now exposed to that person, and you have to also adapt in a new way.
Just my 2 cents.
PL almost pulled it off.... and how awesome would that of been? There is the flip side to the coin.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
Lead Moderator
Wait, what? Even with the reset rules in place, the same outcome would have happened. Detroit won 6-2, which would have translated to the same 3-2 in the reset scenario. The only difference that the continuation rule makes is that the winning player is given some extra time to dick around, as we saw in the Denzel vs. PL match.
Your missing my point. Had it been regular rules, the match would have started with the feeling of this is anyones match. instead it starts with "this is already over." BORING.
Ok but for arguments sake what about the Columbus Grand Finals when REO almost ran it back? They were actually more hype because of the continuation rule.
Yea their has been some hyped matches with the continuation rule but that doesnt mean its a good thing for the game.
 

G4S Claude VonStroke

@MK_ClaudeVS on twitter
I look at it as, it's 26k or something like that. If they want to have one rule change, they can do it. Also it is more fair to the player who wins the most.
 

Saint

Kombatant
Sure but it doesnt give you that impending doom feeling like this rule gives you. It doesnt every give you that "anything could happen" mentality :/
I partially agree but I think you're being a bit too dramatic

Denzel destroyed PL in their first set, but PL almost ran it back in the second, please tell me that wasn't hype
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
IMO it is nothing more than a way to be different and establish a new way to judge player vs player skill. I think it's garbage in a double elimination style tournament to be honest and I had this conversation with several TOs from different tournaments, all of which agreed it's garbage. There should first, be more focus on preventing Double Jeopardies before the bottle neck, ie: 4th through 1st place, which at times, absolutely cannot be avoided since there is no other player in that bracket to play against. However, this still manages to not happen that often in tournaments I've experienced depending on the program, or if you use paper brackets.

I had it happen twice in one bracket for me in Challonge once and I corrected it manually, but in 10 years I've never experienced expanding a previous set with a player at a DEFICIT other than grand finals, as this is the purpose of a double dip grand finals where the winner of the losers bracket must beat the undefeated player twice, since they merely need to LOSE twice to be eliminated. Typically, if you lose 2 matches in a tournament, you go to losers, and then losers finals, IMO, is the soonest time for two players to re-meet in a tournament, that means BOTH players have lost twice, and they get 3 more losses a piece, again typically based on 2/3, 3/5 increments.

It's really not about beating individual players when it comes to stats relative to tournaments, it's about being better than everyone on that day, collectively. This means if a certain player cannot beat another, they might not have to face that player at all in the tournament depending on other participants who might be able to beat that player. This can also happen in tournaments with a continuation rule, or any tournament for that matter. The individualism is for post tournament chit chat, theory, and what not. If you want to know how every player stacks up to every player, you do a full Round Robin and play over the course of a week...

Of course players need to worry about specific opponents and do their homework for their own benefit if they want to win, but again, IMHO, you shouldn't be eliminated from an entire tournament by one player unless there are no other opponents left that far into losers. You should never have to lose to the same player twice in the tournament unless it's for a single digit placement, which we saw tonight and that was fine, but I didn't catch the whole bracket. Did any other continuation rule match ups happen in the semis, quarter finals, etc?

There are other concepts that players dispute, like, seeding, skill placement and what not, which is done as a courtesy to prevent high level players from being eliminated "early." IMO, there is a very high chance random seeding would still result in the same winner in any given tournament but the landscape can look chaotic. For example, based on a 32 player bracket, a relatively average player could theoretically make it to winners finals if every player of skill 1 - 16 out of 32 possible points were seeded on one side of the bracket.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Lol, whiny thread is whiny. Complaining b/c your VSM guys got beat. SMH

Sure, I don't like the rule either, but it is what it is. You gotta play the game.
 

Relaxedstate

PTH|RM Relaxedstate
My issue is also that it essentially kills players for taking time to learn from their mistakes. If you don't learn from your mistakes early in your winners match, you not only go to losers, but if you play that player again, you're in a huge hole.

In a normal double elim tourney, you wind up with a player often running it back in losers because they've had time to think and learn about their mistakes. But with continuation, congrats you've learned from your mistakes....but you better have learned perfectly!
Yeah but at MLG it best of 5 rather than 3. And c'mon....he had 3 games to adapt but he lost all of them, which fairly put him in the 'hole' he had to come out of. If you want to look at it like that
 

WayoftheFist

Cold day in hell...
Were they? Let's see? If there was no continuation (Note the games wouldn't have stayed the same if there was no continuation for sure - for one CD Jr was locked into first game jax by the rule), REO has to win TWO sets in order to win grand finals. What happened?
REO won game 1
CD Jr won game 2
REO won game 3
CD Jr won game 4
REO won game 5.
In continuation rules, this made it 5-4. But guess what? Had there been normal rules, that would've been a BRACKET RESET.
REO won game 6
CD Jr won Game 7

And thus we end with a 1-1 final set with 3 more games potentially to be played. How is that any less hype? In fact, resets are MORE hype. They're also fair since they involve the same double elimination rules that everyone encounters.
Very good point.
 

Big Frog

Kombatant
Still don't understand why GF can't just be a regular set. Or at least best of 7 or more.

Is there a reason it's not just a regular set? I've never understood this...
 

CJKRattlehead

Two men enter, one man leaves!
Let's say in a standard tournament someone gets put to losers bracket in a close match 3-2 then you come back through losers and win the first set 3-0 and reset than your opponent wins 3-2. That would mean the final score is 7-6. You won 7 games he won 6, why should he get the victory?

My point is both systems have their flaws and one is not better than the other, just quit whining about a stupid ruling that isn't unfair for either party.
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
Round Robin appears to be the best way to go, but you guys need to understand,.......



THERE'S NO FUCKING WAY WE HAVE TIME FOR EVERYONE TO PLAY EVERYONE IN 2 DAYS!!!!

I'm still rolling this whole thing around in my head. I'm a big fan of Detroit and a big fan of Team-NY ...they are also people I consider friends IRL, so don't expect any favoritism when I fully understand and make my decision. It will be Harvey Dent-style, pure unbiased fair.
 

elLesSDee25

Mortal
It makes perfect sense. If you have two sets, and they both trade 3-2 they both end the day with the same results. But who ever won second wins. Why do that when you can prove who ever is best by forcing one of the players to win actual more games. They can't both win 6, only one can. And that person is better that day.