Match-up Discussion Bad Matchups: How to Deal with them

[1man3letters]

very nice work again SomeCubanGuy

i did not know about b1 hitting kenshi in neutral crouch,i knew it could hit big hitbox chars like radien and freddy at certain distances when there crouch blocking, so this pretty good news for the MU
i member u saying u like using those b1 traps aswell so even better for you

only really think id have a issue with it is prasing d4 in the matchup, i know u stated it only comes into play when u make opp not want to SC but that kenshi has no problem with sonya's d4 and destroys not just mileenas d4 but mileenas footsies in general, barakas d4 isnt going to be too much of a threat to kenshi

thats the problem with kenshi really, fucks with our footsies and can knock us fullscreen to deal with his

 

[EVB SomeCubanGuy]

very nice work again SomeCubanGuy

i did not know about b1 hitting kenshi in neutral crouch,i knew it could hit big hitbox chars like radien and freddy at certain distances when there crouch blocking, so this pretty good news for the MU
i member u saying u like using those b1 traps aswell so even better for you

only really think id have a issue with it is prasing d4 in the matchup, i know u stated it only comes into play when u make opp not want to SC but that kenshi has no problem with sonya's d4 and destroys not just mileenas d4 but mileenas footsies in general, barakas d4 isnt going to be too much of a threat to kenshi

thats the problem with kenshi really, fucks with our footsies and can knock us fullscreen to deal with his

Yeah but both Mileena and Sonya don't have the constant threat of a 10 frame advancing special that can only be punished by a Spirit Charge. The reason Kenshi doesn't have a problem with Sonya or Mileena's D+4s is because he can simply walk back and avoid. Kenshi can't walk back against Baraka because he has to respect Blade Charge. If he starts crouch blocking and then immediately checks with SC, he's open to a jump-in.

 

[1man3letters]

Yeah but both Mileena and Sonya don't have the constant threat of a 10 frame advancing special that can only be punished by a Spirit Charge. The reason Kenshi doesn't have a problem with Sonya or Mileena's D+4s is because he can simply walk back and avoid. Kenshi can't walk back against Baraka because he has to respect Blade Charge. If he starts crouch blocking and then immediately checks with SC, he's open to a jump-in.

valid points my friend, and kenshi must use meter to punish the max range blade charge

 

[Zoidberg747]

Vs. Freddy 4-6

Starting the match
The most important thing here is to move forward. Whether it be walking forward or dashing forward, you need to go forward. If for some reason the Freddy decides to start with NMS you can blade charge on reaction. You want to be near Freddy as much as possible, as that will make the matchup much easier on you.

Understanding Freddy's Zoning
Most of the Freddy's you have faced probably like to zone. It is what the character excels at, so this makes sense. If you dont know what you are doing you will likely get blown up by his zoning, so hopefully after this explanation you will get it better. So first thing is first, most Freddy's like to start by throwing a glove toss. What you need to understand is if you block a glove toss, you then MUST block a fullscreen ground claw. They dont always have to do a ground claw after, but if you move at all you will get hit, so it is a good idea to block the first few. The good thing is that far ground claw is unsafe on block, so this lands you a free walk or dash forward. Freddy fingers is the same, you must block the far ground claw. So the key here is to wait for him to ground claw so you can dash forward. Obviously if he just chucks glove toss' all the time then obviously continue to walk forward, just realize that he can catch you with Far Ground claw if he wants. Some of you may wonder about when or when not to use EX blade charge. Like I said before, Far Ground Claw is unsafe on block so when he does that you can EX Blade charge to get in. If he uses his EX Far Ground Claw he is -13 on block, so once again you can dash forward. But according to m2dave the best defense for this move is just to jump forward. The other tool Freddy has for zoning is his Sweet Dreams. Now I dont think most Freddy players will use this unless it is enhanced, because it is 59 frame execution. So you can walk a considerable ways forward while he is recovering from this. Again, dont think most will use it. EX is slightly faster but it still can be dashed I believe.

At Midscreen
At Midscreen you have to watch a few more of his options. If he ground claws he is at negative frames so you can blade charge if in range or dash forward. If you block a glove toss you can get a free dash, but watch out for ground calw because if a mid one hits he can combo into a fullscreen one and you are back where you started. If Freddy goes into NMS he can do either 1 or 2 to catch you at this range. However you can always blade charge when he goes into NMS. However if you dont, just block high as NMS 2 is an overhead. He can also B+2 if you get in close enough, but once this is blocked you can poke into pressure(ill go into that later). If you get close to Freddy he may try to teleport out. You can in my experience hit him out of it with blade charge or EX blade charge. If he tries to freddy fingers you can do a JIP into 2,2 1+2.

Up close
Yeah, I will be honest with you here, this will not happen often. When you do get up close, you want to know what you are doing. This will probably needed to be updated once Somberness gets the Freddy block advantages done, so for now I can only go with what M2dave has posted and some general guesstimates. Once you get in close you need to apply your pressure while watching out for his. 2,2 jails freddy on block so 2,2 1+2 into frametraps or slices for meter is your best option. This is why when you get up close you need to realize when to jump in, if Freddy tries to ground claw up close and you block it, jump in into 2,2. If he tries to Freddy Fingers, JIP into 2,2. If he glove tosses he would still have enough time to AA you, so that is better to just try and dash. D3 or D1 to try and stay in on him, cancel into slices if you have to. Be warned that it is a 13 frame gap so it gives him JUST enough time to 2,2 into a combo. A better approach here would be to d3 multiple times until he tries to either backdash or teleport out, then you can hit him with a blade charge. If you can d3 enough to where he blocks low, you can sweep which leaves you at +11 and can dash in or slices to continue pressure and gain a lot of meter. D4 can be used sparingly but once again you want to be in on him and make sure he doesnt have a chance to escape back to fullscreen. Another thing thanks to @1man3letters is b11 and b1f1 will hit because of his hitbox. These can be used to jail and continue pressure.

Instead of trying to ream out a bunch of possible scenarios, I am going to just show some of Freddy's strings and how to punish them/react to them:

F4,2,1: This is one of his better strings and will be used a lot. The last hit is -6 so you can d3 out of this one, but you have to watch and see if he pokes as well. He can cancel it though into teleport or NMS, however this does not hurt us because blade charge takes away those options.

B+2: High combo starter. When blocked I am going to guess you can poke him, again there is no solid frame data yet. This is an overhead and cannot be fuzzy guarded. You can also punish with f44 f4 if you think he is going to attack again.

B+3: His low which can also be canceled into specials for combos. Once again cannot be fuzzy guarded, but I think it is minus frames on block but you should be able to poke out into pressure(or F44 into F4 if you think he may attack again).

B+1, 2, u+1: It has a bad speed and hitbox so I would punish with a string of your own like f44. Not really going to be used outside combos, but if it is then try and punish it.

Oki(Preventing wakeup)

Freddy has 3 main options for waking up:

Teleport and EX teleport: If he tele's just dash forward, he will be near the corner anyway. Same thing with EX tele(You can't blade charge it because of invincibility frames). However, this could be a good time to use sweep as an oki move, and if he teleports you can then blade charge to stop Freddy from trying to whiff punish.

EX Sweet Dreams: Dont know much about this except that it has armor. If you sweep you should be able to block this in time.

NMS: He can do this on wakeup but he is not blocking and that is a free blade charge for you. It will make sweep whiff I believe but again you can blade charge if he goes for a whiff punish.

Wakeup
When Freddy knocks you down you need to see what he does. If he is throwing a glove toss, get up and block it and dash forward(see Fullscreen). If he tries to NMS or Sweet Dreams blade charge will hit him because of the invincibility. Same for EX Sweet Dreams. If he tries to Freddy Fingers or Glove toss really close, and you have meter, you can EX blade charge him. If he tries to Teleport EX blade charge him as well(or blade charge if you can).

In the corner(Baraka):
Once you get him in the corner, it is pretty bad for him. What you want to try and do is JIP into 2,2 so he is jailed. You can end the string and do the frametrap to try and get him to block high. Once there you can do a b3, now of course you have two options here. You can either hit it into b31 b31 b31 F4 or if he blocks it do either b3, 2 slices for meter build or b3,2 2 to knock him down. Once you reset him you can either go for the 2,2 1+2 or the b31 again. He cannot teleport out or anything like that, although he will most likely try and poke out. If he does just poke him back and be patient, he is in a bad position, dont give him a mistake here. F44 F4 can also be used in the corner, but if he blocks the F44 it is better to go into a poke or something instead of F4 because F44 is only -3 on block while F4 is worse(blanking atm sorry). You can also chop chop in case you think he will try to teleport, and of course reset him. He can punish this though so that is a risky move. The key here is to keep mixing it up with b3 and 2,2 because of his big hitbox. If you need to use U+3 to gain some advantage into more pressure, but I personally just mix it up with 2,2 1+2 slices(for meter) 2,2 1+2 b31 b31 F4 or b31 b31 b31 F4(for reset) or b3,2 slices or b3,2 2 for when he blocks the F4.

In the corner(Freddy):
There are times when Freddy may try to corner you, and the key here is to get out and try and reverse it if you can. See the string section up there to see what to do against certain strings. If he knocks you down he might try to EX sweet Dreams to make you stand up and block. If he does get up and try to jump out if possible, he will most likely still be in recovery frames and it will put him in the corner instead. You can also blade charge but that will knock him away so that is not ideal. But yeah, just know when to punish and how to punish his strings and you should be good. The one thing you need to look out for is him with meter. If he has meter he has a safe 50/50 with either B+2 EX Spike or B+3 EX Spike. If you block and guess right, you can poke out with d3. You just have to guess right, but it isnt the end of the world because he has to have meter to do it.

Poking and Counter Poking
Again without block advantage some of this is guessing, but some I am sure about. His D1 is as good as our D3 so you need to watch out for that. His D+2 is 10 frames so it can punish things like d3 slices. His D3 is 7 frames so it is still very solid. His d4 is meh because it is 13 frames and not too great of a range. You have to watch out because of his good pokes. You cannot d1 because if it gets blocked he can d1(it is -7). D3 is a much safer option and can get you some pressure(albeit it only has like +2 frame advantage on hit). D4 can be used also because it grants +13 on hit. However the danger of this is it has a slower startup, so it could allow Freddy to backdash(which is not what you want).

Keys to the matchup

• Know his zoning(Read the section up above)
• Know when to dash in
• Know when it is safe to jump in
• Use frame traps and 2,2
• Get him into the corner
• Stay in his face

I cant think of anything else at the moment. Big props to m2dave, I used a lot of his posted knowledge to help me with this. I hope this helps you guys out, I will put this and the Kenshi guide from SomeCubanGuy in the OP shortly.

 

[1man3letters]

very nice Zoidberg747, like that u adopted something kinda like cubans layout aswell,fits well.
maybe in time change the chars youve already done small parts on to this?

both you and SomeCubanGuy are doing great work with this, i better pull my blade out and get on helping also

i didnt really see it mentioned beond 22 jail how that baraka should make use of freddy's huge hitbox,
b11/b1f1 hits him crouch blocking(sometimes not at extreme touching distant though )

one thing that u didnt mention maybe it could go in the "in the corner(freddy)" section is freddys safe 50/50 game with meter, b2~exspike (overhead) or b3~exspike (low) is a pretty fucking sweet option for him, big damage in corner aswell

 

[Zoidberg747]

Ill get to the other characters eventually. That one took me about 2 and a half hours lol. Thanks for the stuff to add, ill do it shortly.

 

[1man3letters]

Ill get to the other characters eventually. That one took me about 2 and a half hours lol. Thanks for the stuff to add, ill do it shortly.

well your work is much appreciated...
by all others tarkatans aswell im sure

 

[M2Dave]

Zoidberg747, good write up. Regular spikes are -13 on block. The EX version is -6 with push back.

The way you fight Freddy is by neutral-crouching gloves on reaction. That is, you hold crouch block and release block when you see Freddy toss a glove. Finger hits low but the start up is slower than the glove. You can react and jump forward, but if you are slightly late, you get spiked on the way down.

I have actually never fought a high level Baraka player, but Freddy should win 6:4 based on the tools. The vast majority of Baraka players have no experience in this match, so it may seem 7:3 or worse.

 

[1man3letters]

Zoidberg747, good write up. Regular spikes are -13 on block. The EX version is -6 with push back.

The way you fight Freddy is by neutral-crouching gloves on reaction. That is, you hold crouch block and release block when you see Freddy toss a glove. Finger hits low but the start up is slower than the glove. You can react and jump forward, but if you are slightly late, you get spiked on the way down.

I have actually never fought a high level Baraka player, but Freddy should win 6:4 based on the tools. The vast majority of Baraka players have no experience in this match, so it may seem 7:3 or worse.

thank you very much for your input sir, much appreciated.

yea its one of the few MUs i dont get to play as often as id like, we do have a guy over here who uses him as a secondary but i can only take so much from that as hes not a out n out freddy main

 

[Zoidberg747]

Vs. Kung Lao 4-6

At the start
Let him make the first move. The key to this matchup is to bait and punish. If he decides to teleport, neutral duck. If he rolls forward deal with that(see up close and midscreen). The key here is to be patient and not get yourself combo'd right off the bat.

At Fullscreen
Kung Lao is usually very mobile, so you have to watch out for that. Unless he does an instant air dive kick, you should be able to chop chop on reaction. If he teleports, usually they don't go for the overhead. If you block the teleport 3 you can blade spin him away. If he throws it is not a huge deal, but he does require you to make a guess. In my personal experience, the best thing to do is try to neutral duck on reaction. Then the next time he teleports stand block and he will have to grab, and if he does he is throwing you away. He also has his F+3 which can travel the whole screen. Depending on how far he does it you can chop chop on reaction so he runs right into it. As far as zoning goes it is the same for any other character. If he throws a hat block it and dash. If he throws a low hat fuzzy block and dash. Nothing horrible here.

ADHD Kung Lao's
Some Kung Lao's really like to move. A lot of online KLs are like this, but there are a few in the offline scene as well. This is much more manageable imo. If they like to F+3 a lot, try to make a good read and chop chop at midscreen. The worst they could do is teleport, but you will have enough time to block. If they dive kick a bunch, try and dash backward and make him come to you. When you see him go into the air chop chop, because you spaced it correctly if he divekicks or JIPs he will be hit. These guys are much more manageable, because you just have to make good reads and be patient.

At Midscreen
This is the best place to be in this matchup. Here is a good place to play footsies and whiff punish. I like to be tricky with my movement in this matchup. If I am at midscreen I like to sweep into blade charge. Even if it is blocked he cannot spin because you are still not on him. I would assume most KL's would F3 to get in your face and start pressure. However, after a few times blade charging, whiff the sweep and dash back. If they decide to f3 it will whiff and they will be wide open for a punish. Another good tactic is to dash in just before D4 range and whiff a D4. Most KL's that know the matchup will spin D4 on reaction, and then you will have another punish. That brings me to my next point, D4 is a MOOT tool in this matchup. Kung Lao can spin it on reaction for a full combo. A much better tool is faking like you are about to D4. If Kung Lao does F3 on you remember to dash backwards, this prevents him from getting pressure(His F3 is -4 which gives you time for a backdash). If you feel lucky you can chop chop to try and read a dash or F3. If he tries to F1(hat swipe) just block it and he is -11 on block. This gives you time to b11 which jails or F44 F4 which resets them for more pressure.

Up close
This is where the matchup gets tricky. Kung Lao's meter building revolves around 2 into 2,1,2,1,2,1,2(-26) or 2,1,2,1,2. Most of them only do this when they hit confirm, but if you block it you can actually 1,2,1 into slices for meter build of your own(or just blade charge). If they try and mix it up by going 2,1 or 2 he will be neutral on block. This is where you need to try and poke to get some of your pressure going. If they 1 or 1,2 or 1,1,2,1 they will be neutral on block, again the best strategy here is to try and d3 out. If the d3 hits you can either backdash to try and whiff punish or follow it with pressure(F44 F4 would be a safe option). Dont try and d3, d3, d3 though, because he can catch on and spin on reaction for a full combo. The other problem is with 2,1 command grab, you have to respect this option. He can also use his regular throw after 1,1 or other variations of 1 or 2. The good thing about that one is it can be neutral ducked or you can be throw breaked. The command grab is worse but does not lead to an insane amount of damage. Oh and if they 2,4 low hat, blow that shit up(no good KL does this anymore lol).

Oki
This section is short because of his spin, you can't do anything lol. D4 gets blown up, sweep gets blown up. If you get him into a combo, end it with the reset. If you want to try and bait the spin or teleport, you can try. However, a lot of times the KL player is going to get smart and just get up and start attacking you while you are blocking. This is why sometimes it is better to just backdash if you knock KL down. Then he might teleport but you should know how to deal with that(See Fullscreen).

Waking Up
If KL knocks you down you do not have too many options. When you see him try and do anything you can EX blade charge on reaction. If he tries something stupid like low hat to try and prevent you from waking up(know smart player would do this in blade charge range) you can blade range through it.

In the corner
KL is still at a disadvantage when he is in the corner. He can spin out of some of Baraka's stuff, but he is still vulnerable to some corner pressure. A good tactic is to follow a b31 combo into reset with an F44 F4 follow up. This catches a lot of people off guard because most Baraka players follow with 2,2 1+2 or F2 after the reset. If the F44 F4 is blocked you need to block to prevent a spin. If he does you are going to have a free punish. If he blocks your b3 you can end it with 2,2 instead of 1 for an overhead or end it with 2 into slices for meter build. If you hit him with a b31 he will most likely duck when you reset, and this is where you either want to f2 into slices for damage or F2 into EX slices for a full combo. If you think he is going to try and teleport out, you can chop chop into f4, but if it is blocked your pressure is over. Then again, you cant always win playing 100% safe, and he can spin out of most of your stuff anyway.

When Cornered
KL is devastating in the corner, especially with his corner combos. the best thing to do here is wait for him to make a move and counter poke. The block again and see if they spin. If they do that is your chance to full combo punish, and this time end the combo in blade charge so your are away from the corner. If he tries to 2,4 or do a low into command grab or throw, take the knockdown and get back up and block. If he tries to do 2 or 1 pressure let them hit and punish accordingly(see up close). The most important thing though is to be patient and not try to jump out. Because while being chipped to death sucks, being hit by a 45-50% corner combo sucks even worse.

Poking
Considering KL can blow up any poke with a full combo if you get too predictable, you need to mix it up. This is probably a matchup where I really think d3 into slices can be tried, because while he can blow it up, he can also blow up another poke. This way you are mixing him up and keeping him on his toes. Another good tip is when a poke hits(Especially D4) backdash to try and either whiff punish a spin or make him try to get in with f1 or f3 that can be backdashed again or punished. Once again he can spin D4 on reaction because of its execution frames, so use it at your own risk.

Countering his pokes
Kl's pokes are actually not that great if you block them. If you block a d1 of his you can automatically F4 into frametraps. If he d3's then you can poke back yourself and either backdash or start pressure. Keep in mind that he cannot punish our d3 with his d3 because his has a 9 frame execution. So this means that when you d3, he can only counter with a d1. If you block the d1 you put him at -13 and have a window to start pressure(You can do slices here to build meter and put yourself in the neutral game). If his d1 or d3 hits he is at no more than +3 frames advantage so just try and block the next one. His D4 is exactly like Baraka's in that it is neutral on block and +12 on hit, but it has a much shorter range and is not as effective.

Meter Usage
You want to save meter for breaker. While doing f2 EX slices combos and getting a get in free card with EX blade charge sounds nice, you want to save it. Kung Lao has a very high damage output, and you will need that breaker later. Especially if you are in the corner, the breaker can save you from taking a lot of damage. If you have a full bar then you can maybe do one EX blade charge, but dont do the F2 into EX slices. Even though that resets it is much more effickient to save that bar and try to F2 slices instead for a knockdown. If he teleports out or gets out, you have meter to get back in. If he doesn't, you keep him in the corner without sacrificing a bar.

Meter Building
Same as always, but you have to be careful. Jumping in on Kung Lao is a big no no and should almost never be done. High risk medium reward there. Like I said above the best thing is to try and whiff punish and make good reads. If a chop chop whiffs you still gain a bit of meter. If you have him in the corner and see he has X-ray or think he is going to get out, chop chop may be the best option because at worst you are at least building a lot of meter. However if you end up getting f44 f4 off or even f4 then going into 2,2 1+2 slices is certainly ideal, because that is almost a whole bar. If you can get 1,2,1 b1,1 b3,2 f2 or any string off then canceling into slices will build you some meter. Even when you poke him, if you want to take a risk you can go for the slices and possibly build some meter. Oh, and if you are one of those people who loves fancy corner combos, try to do the triple spin combo. B31 B31 spin spin spin. I have no idea if the last one will hit but it doesnt matter, because you need to gain as much meter as you can and that is the best way to do it.

Anti Airing
Chop Chop. If he jumps at you chop chop. Like I said on whiff it builds you meter. If he tries to dive kick he is getting hit. If you space it correctly he will be hit if he tries to JIP. Blade spin will work but it just hits him away and doesnt get you nearly as much meter. F44 F4 can also work as well but does not work well against the divekick.

Keys to the matchup

• Movement(Back dashing to force a whiff, dashing and back dashing, dashing in for pressure)\
• Good reads(Chop Chop or spin any dive kick, try and chop chop or spin when you think he is going to F3)
• Save your meter for Breaker
• Know how to punish his strings
• Bait out spins and whiff punish
• Build as much meter as you can
• Be as cautious as possible with pokes
• Always end combos with a reset.

 

[1man3letters]

Zoidberg747

only got around to reading this now.
you mention chop chop alot,using chop chop is in this is not advised in this MU and shouldnt be used at all outside chop chop traps and wakeup and even there risky as fuck against lao,
it cant be done on reaction to anything kung does,if you are doing it on reaction to him jumping your either going to eat a dive kick or be teleported behind. while in active frames chop does lower baraka's hitbox enough for intanst 3 to whiff, he can still get in you the recovery frames of with a late 3. big risk, low reward. spin is much better in this MU than chop chop

making the read of doing this against f3s etc also is not worth the risk as the very least you'll be eating is a hat, most being 50% combos, even using the 7 frame spin against kung can be trick with divekicks but you can react to a f3 with spin

also using f4,4 f4 against kung is also a bad idea from how low it resets them and kungs normals being much faster than baraka's,only think f4,4 f4 gives you against kung is a d1/d3, everything else will lose

also dont agree with ending everything in resets,kung can ex tele after a knockdown or reset so you might as well get your max damage, alot of baraka's mix up game/frame trap 50/50s is also very limited against kung because of spin,his normals and ex tele, sure you cant bait but if kung lao sees your respecting his options to much,he's kill you for it

 

[Zoidberg747]

Zoidberg747

only got around to reading this now.
you mention chop chop alot,using chop chop is in this is not advised in this MU and shouldnt be used at all outside chop chop traps and wakeup and even there risky as fuck against lao,
it cant be done on reaction to anything kung does,if you are doing it on reaction to him jumping your either going to eat a dive kick or be teleported behind. while in active frames chop does lower baraka's hitbox enough for intanst 3 to whiff, he can still get in you the recovery frames of with a late 3. big risk, low reward. spin is much better in this MU than chop chop

making the read of doing this against f3s etc also is not worth the risk as the very least you'll be eating is a hat, most being 50% combos, even using the 7 frame spin against kung can be trick with divekicks but you can react to a f3 with spin

also using f4,4 f4 against kung is also a bad idea from how low it resets them and kungs normals being much faster than baraka's,only think f4,4 f4 gives you against kung is a d1/d3, everything else will lose

also dont agree with ending everything in resets,kung can ex tele after a knockdown or reset so you might as well get your max damage, alot of baraka's mix up game/frame trap 50/50s is also very limited against kung because of spin,his normals and ex tele, sure you cant bait but if kung lao sees your respecting his options to much,he's kill you for it

If you backdash and do the chop chop the divekick will hit it I believe. I will test it today at casuals and see, but I am pretty sure. Otherwise yes I did forget to mention spin, but you can just replace chop chop with spin if you choose. With baiting F3 I am not talking about smart KLs, only ones that like to move and are unsafe. It is all about reading the other KL, and seeing what moves they are getting predictable with that you can punish. Against a smart KL the F3can still be spun like you said.

See this is where you and I differ. I like to reset KL into that situation, because I can either try and force a blocked spin or poke to try and get into pressure. At the very least you should try and use F44 because it is 6 frames or something like that, so it is good to punish with.

Why is Kung EX teleporting a bad thing? You just made him possibly waste a bar, I would say that is worth resetting him. I do agree with his spin limiting most of Baraka's pressure game, but that just means youu have to be more patient and play better footsies. I find the sweep to do wonders in this matchup as well, because you can either cancel it into chop chop to stop the f3 or blade charge to knock him towards the corner. Yes he could punish it but Baraka has to take some risks in this matchup. However I said in the guide that you need to conserve meter for breakers, and that is why. It allows you to take some risks.

Thank you for your input.

 

[1man3letters]

If you backdash and do the chop chop the divekick will hit it I believe. I will test it today at casuals and see, but I am pretty sure. Otherwise yes I did forget to mention spin, but you can just replace chop chop with spin if you choose. With baiting F3 I am not talking about smart KLs, only ones that like to move and are unsafe. It is all about reading the other KL, and seeing what moves they are getting predictable with that you can punish. Against a smart KL the F3can still be spun like you said.

See this is where you and I differ. I like to reset KL into that situation, because I can either try and force a blocked spin or poke to try and get into pressure. At the very least you should try and use F44 because it is 6 frames or something like that, so it is good to punish with.

Why is Kung EX teleporting a bad thing? You just made him possibly waste a bar, I would say that is worth resetting him. I do agree with his spin limiting most of Baraka's pressure game, but that just means youu have to be more patient and play better footsies. I find the sweep to do wonders in this matchup as well, because you can either cancel it into chop chop to stop the f3 or blade charge to knock him towards the corner. Yes he could punish it but Baraka has to take some risks in this matchup. However I said in the guide that you need to conserve meter for breakers, and that is why. It allows you to take some risks.

Thank you for your input.

backdash chop chop will only hit a divekick if the divekick is done from the highest point of jump, ive already tested this.
well i thought this was to be about matchups played in tourny play,so id assume the kung lao is not a idiot.

baraka pokes gives +2 and your not going to use d3/d1 slices against kung of why lose damage to put kung at nearly no disadvantage? +2 for baraka might as well but neutral against lao because of the difference in normals, kung doesnt need to spin after resets at all either,the threat of spin is far worse than him doing it, his normals or ex tele will do the job depending was it a full corner reset or midscreen f4,4 f4 reset

ex tele from some resets could put baraka in the corner against a armored kung lao coming out of the ground, and unlike midscreen he can still combo you if he hits you while jumping,if you dont jump then he builds the whole baraka back with 3 into 2121,not that kung has a problem building meter in this MU anyway,
also with the tricks some kung like to use to keep the armor the extra frames if you try hit him you will eat big damage.
so imo its better to get your full damage and take a step or two back so if kung doesnt wakeup ex tele you both wont be pressed right against the corner, thats why i dont agree with resetting kung anywhere on the screen 90% of the time

also something else about this matchup ive mentioned before but just thought id bring up again, because of the hitbox of baraka's spin, he can spin kung out of his xray and still give him damage, its pin perfect spacing but it can be done

 

[EVB SomeCubanGuy]

Smh...I still don't know why you guys even use Chop Chop dude. That move is terrible. In high level play that shit gets blown up on whiff and block, and the most you can get from it is a D4 into Blade Charge which does like 20%. In the corner you get a low alt reset which nets you what? +9? Not worth it. It gets beat on wakeup a lot, can be jumped in on. It's just bad. Only time I EVER use is off hit confirms (and even then it's usually better just to spend the meter for EN Slices.

If Lao Divekicks just block that shit and combo. Simple as that.

The whole reason this matchup is bad is not because of Lao's normals or even spin, it's because of his Teleport and the guess between an instant 3 and a delayed 3. Baraka's best punishment against both is just a F44 combo and the timing is very strict and dependent on which he does. If he does a delayed 3, you can only uppercut or D1. Lao can pretty much Teleport on Baraka all day because of his big hitbox, and his mobility is what kills. And I agree with 1man3letters to a point. If you have Lao near the corner at all, reset him. If not, go for damage then back away a bit, go into neutral duck and see what he does. The way you win is not be afraid of Spin, but to make him more afraid of throwing it out.

 

[1man3letters]

Smh...I still don't know why you guys even use Chop Chop dude. That move is terrible. In high level play that shit gets blown up on whiff and block, and the most you can get from it is a D4 into Blade Charge which does like 20%. In the corner you get a low alt reset which nets you what? +9? Not worth it. It gets beat on wakeup a lot, can be jumped in on. It's just bad. Only time I EVER use is off hit confirms (and even then it's usually better just to spend the meter for EN Slices.

If Lao Divekicks just block that shit and combo. Simple as that.

The whole reason this matchup is bad is not because of Lao's normals or even spin, it's because of his Teleport and the guess between an instant 3 and a delayed 3. Baraka's best punishment against both is just a F44 combo and the timing is very strict and dependent on which he does. If he does a delayed 3, you can only uppercut or D1. Lao can pretty much Teleport on Baraka all day because of his big hitbox, and his mobility is what kills. And I agree with 1man3letters to a point. If you have Lao near the corner at all, reset him. If not, go for damage then back away a bit, go into neutral duck and see what he does. The way you win is not be afraid of Spin, but to make him more afraid of throwing it out.

yea im trying to keep chop to hit confirms or in xray combos because of the scaling on the move, am guility of throwing it out outside those times though,especially after a blocked spin because of the pushback

with kungs normal tele spin in a pretty good answer to all his options, sure its only 9% but stop him getting his damage.
wont work so well with ex tele though.

IF baraka chooses to d1 normal tele,d2 can be linked after because of the huge hitbox also which nice little sidenote while were talking about the tele

 

[Island Bwoy]

Hmm, As Far as resets go, it depends on how high you reset them. I have found that if you reset the opponent at the highest possible point in the combo, You actually get more advantage than +9 (I believe Somberness said +13 in one of his postings). Depending on height of reset, I will go for 4-slices if low or b3 or f2 combos if high. 4-slices leaves you with +3 frames (+7 high) to work with as Kung's spin is 6 frames (raka's 4 is 12). F44 - f4 reset is not worth it to me because the advantage seems to be less than +9 (more like +4). I mostly f44, 4-charge for 25% damage

As far as teleport, I practice to forward dash on reaction the instant I notice a teleport and then blade charge or f44, 4-charge to punish or if I expect a non instant kick teleport or delayed kick, F44 on reaction will knock him out of teleport 90% of the time. I also practice to return a spark the instant I see a hat toss (depending on life lead and spacing), It will trade most of the time.

A well placed spark will knock Kung out of the air. Then a lot of Kung's will teleport on anticipation of another spark. For me, I find that good defense, quick reflexes and reactions is the key to defeating high level Kung players. If you practice to dash away from teleport and punish, then a lot of the difficulty in this match-up is eliminated as a grounded Lao is much easier to defeat.

I saw a Pig of the hut video on TYM, where he shows that a straight down block will cause Kung Tele-Instant kick to whiff. He was using kenshi who has one of the biggest hitboxes on MK9. He also said this works for Shiva as well. Once instant kick whiffs punish with uppercut.

 

[Squeaker101]

Nothing on Liu?

 

[Island Bwoy]

Nothing on Liu?

Lol, Liu is a bitch and a half to deal with. I'll take on Kung Lao any day over Liu Kang

 

[1man3letters]

Hmm, As Far as resets go, it depends on how high you reset them. I have found that if you reset the opponent at the highest possible point in the combo, You actually get more advantage than +9 (I believe Somberness said +13 in one of his postings). Depending on height of reset, I will go for 4-slices if low or b3 or f2 combos if high. 4-slices leaves you with +3 frames (+7 high) to work with as Kung's spin is 6 frames (raka's 4 is 12). F44 - f4 reset is not worth it to me because the advantage seems to be less than +9 (more like +4). I mostly f44, 4-charge for 25% damage

As far as teleport, I practice to forward dash on reaction the instant I notice a teleport and then blade charge or f44, 4-charge to punish or if I expect a non instant kick teleport or delayed kick, F44 on reaction will knock him out of teleport 90% of the time. I also practice to return a spark the instant I see a hat toss (depending on life lead and spacing), It will trade most of the time.

A well placed spark will knock Kung out of the air. Then a lot of Kung's will teleport on anticipation of another spark. For me, I find that good defense, quick reflexes and reactions is the key to defeating high level Kung players. If you practice to dash away from teleport and punish, then a lot of the difficulty in this match-up is eliminated as a grounded Lao is much easier to defeat.

I saw a Pig of the hut video on TYM, where he shows that a straight down block will cause Kung Tele-Instant kick to whiff. He was using kenshi who has one of the biggest hitboxes on MK9. He also said this works for Shiva as well. Once instant kick whiffs punish with uppercut.

i dont understand what your talking about with 4~slices puttin baraka at +3 (+7 high)???
but as far as reset advantage goes, after two b3,1s its +16 after three b3,1s its +12

im sorry but saying that f44 with beat kung lao's teleport 90% of the time on reaction is totally untrue, i dont care how good your timing is

yea spark is good for dealings with those divekicks but if he teles past a spark its big trouble in little china

 

[Island Bwoy]

i dont understand what your talking about with 4~slices puttin baraka at +3 (+7 high)???
but as far as reset advantage goes, after two b3,1s its +16 after three b3,1s its +12

im sorry but saying that f44 with beat kung lao's teleport 90% of the time on reaction is totally untrue, i dont care how good your timing is

yea spark is good for dealings with those divekicks but if he teles past a spark its big trouble in little china

CubanGuy mentioned +9 in his comment and I thought the frame data said the same. If adv is +9 then 4 comes out in 3 frames kungs spin is 6 frames = +3 adv. If reset at highest point (+13 adv) 4 will execute 7 frames faster than spin.

Ive practiced this for hours in training mode. f44 will beat all non instant kick teleports on reaction asides from EX. This is also true for cyrax and cyber sub zero. If you train your mind to react the instant you see the teleport animation, it will beat the tele. This is also true for Raiden as demonstrated by Pig of the hut but his teleport requires the most concentration to punish and a move 12 frames or less (charge for raka works best). Pig should raiden teleport can be punished even had his sparing mate block right after teleport to prove his point.

f44 will punish a purposely whiffed smoke teleport on reaction also. Just takes practice.


Using any move recklessly will be punished at high level play but, a well timed and read spark is very useful in high level play to keep kung lao grounded.

 

[1man3letters]

CubanGuy mentioned +9 in his comment and I thought the frame data said the same. If adv is +9 then 4 comes out in 3 frames kungs spin is 6 frames = +3 adv. If reset at highest point (+13 adv) 4 will execute 7 frames faster than spin.

Ive practiced this for hours in training mode. f44 will beat all non instant kick teleports on reaction asides from EX. This is also true for cyrax and cyber sub zero. If you train your mind to react the instant you see the teleport animation, it will beat the tele. This is also true for Raiden as demonstrated by Pig of the hut but his teleport requires the most concentration to punish and a move 12 frames or less (charge for raka works best). Pig should raiden teleport can be punished even had his sparing mate block right after teleport to prove his point.

f44 will punish a purposely whiffed smoke teleport on reaction also. Just takes practice.


Using any move recklessly will be punished at high level play but, a well timed and read spark is very useful in high level play to keep kung lao grounded.

training mode?? seriously? you cant get kung to do normals on wakeup and against the cpu u cant tell what they did either.
cyrax's and CSZ's teles are totally different all together aswell.

again saying f4 can punish tele 90% of the time is a totally untrue statement, same with punishing radiens tele at that percentage, doing things in training mode and in game and two very different things

 

[Zoidberg747]

Nothing on Liu?

It is a work in progress. I am going to do Johnny Cage next, no idea when I will do liu since I never play the matchup.

 

[1man3letters]

It is a work in progress. I am going to do Johnny Cage next, no idea when I will do liu since I never play the matchup.

well i play the kang MU alot (to much) offline so i could help with that?

ps. maybe in upcoming things leave out making reads as a strat to get damage like with KL , guessing right and reading your opp its not a gamplan for a certain match, making reads fall under every MU in the game

 

[AYSAMO]

Since I play both Kang and Baraka, I can tell you Baraka's best tool in this matchup is his d1. He can outpressure kang if you poke and counterpoke correctly. You want to stay about 2 character distances away from Kang so you can stuff any jump attempts and punish zoning. If you manage to get Kang in the corner don't be scared to pressure, his only wakeup options are low ex fireball for a stun, or risk an ex bicycle kick to try and get out. This is where Kang is the most vulnerable, try to push him towards the corner as best you can and keep him there. It's a very workable matchup.

 

[1man3letters]

Since I play both Kang and Baraka, I can tell you Baraka's best tool in this matchup is his d1. He can outpressure kang if you poke and counterpoke correctly. You want to stay about 2 character distances away from Kang so you can stuff any jump attempts and punish zoning. If you manage to get Kang in the corner don't be scared to pressure, his only wakeup options are low ex fireball for a stun, or risk an ex bicycle kick to try and get out. This is where Kang is the most vulnerable, try to push him towards the corner as best you can and keep him there. It's a very workable matchup.

i agree with everything bar the D1, why use baraka's 7 frame D1 while kang has a 7 frame D3??
baraka has a 6 frame D3 and it less punishable on block and with more hit advantage than D1