Match-up Discussion Bad Matchups: How to Deal with them

[Zoidberg747]

1man3letters I think the OP is too big to put another guide in, could you edit it into your second post?

 

[AYSAMO]

The best way to deal with bad matchups in this game is to just go Kabal so you don't have any.

Then when you lose matches as Kabal you can know it's because you got out-played in some capacity and work on it from there.

What about Kabal Mirrors when you're not p1?

 

[MortySeinfeld]

What about Kabal Mirrors when you're not p1?

This is Kabal's only bad matchup.

 

[1man3letters]

1man3letters I think the OP is too big to put another guide in, could you edit it into your second post?

even with the spoliers??? thats odd
yea ill just edit the 2nd post in thread then,
nice write up on cyrax btw and to answer you question, you can only spin a jip after command grab if the cyrax mis-times it, it is possible to armor it though which ive never seen anyone do, tried in practice with one my training buddys and was no easy task to do so maybe thats why lol

 

[1man3letters]

Zoidberg747 edited in a small summary of the kang MU in the 2nd post, will add more to it later(will do that cage one aswell).
also i was able to edit your cyrax one into the OP for you

 

[TotteryManx]

I have to ask, why is the Raiden MU considered 3-7? Raiden's key strings can be interrupted. The last time I checked Raka has a 7 frame spin.

Is his telelport considered a problem? The teleport can easily be punished. I usually d4 a teleporting raiden, which leads to f44 pressure. Or if they try to cross me over after a tele I'll cancel whatever to a spin and such....I'm curious...

 

[1man3letters]

I have to ask, why is the Raiden MU considered 3-7? Raiden's key strings can be interrupted. The last time I checked Raka has a 7 frame spin.

Is his telelport considered a problem? The teleport can easily be punished. I usually d4 a teleporting raiden, which leads to f44 pressure. Or if they try to cross me over after a tele I'll cancel whatever to a spin and such....I'm curious...

post #85 has my views on the tele.
defensive tele is more of a problem than radien teleing to get it.
yes they are interruptable but barakas armor is unsafe and radien can bait it to whiff also.
baraka cant frame trap him, he has a OS to deal with the throw mixup after 221+2 so you cant even throw his tele attempts out of frame trap.
slighty outdamages baraka, out footsies baraka (imo) and meterless escapes of frametraps/reset follow up and can punish any and all charges.
its pretty bad when the radien knows how to play it,not unwinnable though

also you shouldnt be able to d4, f44 radien(unless radiens back agaisnt corner) midscreenn d4 even at closest touching distance on hit gives too much pushback if u were to use the +13 and f4 right away the f4 would whiff, a mini dash would be needed giving radien time to tele

hope that helps anyways

 

[TotteryManx]

post #85 has my views on the tele.
defensive tele is more of a problem than radien teleing to get it.
yes they are interruptable but barakas armor is unsafe and radien can bait it to whiff also.
baraka cant frame trap him, he has a OS to deal with the throw mixup after 221+2 so you cant even throw his tele attempts out of frame trap.
slighty outdamages baraka, out footsies baraka (imo) and meterless escapes of frametraps/reset follow up and can punish any and all charges.
its pretty bad when the radien knows how to play it,not unwinnable though

also you shouldnt be able to d4, f44 radien ever(unless radiens back agaisnt corner) midscreenn d4 even at closest touching distance on hit gives too much pushback if u were to use the +13 and f4 right away the f4 would whiff, a mini dash would be needed giving radien time to tele

hope that helps anyways

It helps actually. I don't have that much MU experience against good Raiden players. The only experience I have is against a mediocre one, which explains my confusion I'd say.

 

[Gh0sty]

Just a quick question for all you raka players: what do you think the MU numbers are vs Ermac? I was recently told that it's advantage mac, but I'd like to hear the Baraka communities stance on it.

Tan
Toxic
Rampage254
Zoidberg747


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[Zoidberg747]

Just a quick question for all you raka players: what do you think the MU numbers are vs Ermac? I was recently told that it's advantage mac, but I'd like to hear the Baraka communities stance on it.

Tan
Toxic
Rampage254
Zoidberg747


Sent from my jailbroken iPhone using a pirated copy of Tapatalk

It is 5-5 for sure

 

[TheTetraSpirit]

Just a quick question for all you raka players: what do you think the MU numbers are vs Ermac? I was recently told that it's advantage mac, but I'd like to hear the Baraka communities stance on it.

Tan
Toxic
Rampage254
Zoidberg747


Sent from my jailbroken iPhone using a pirated copy of Tapatalk

I'm of the opinion that it's 6-4 Baraka.
He punishes all blocked TKPs which is huge, out-ranges him in pokes, and can freely pummel him in the corner due to Ermac's lack of any sort of armor.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I'm of the opinion that it's 6-4 Baraka.
He punishes all blocked TKPs which is huge, out-ranges him in pokes, and can freely pummel him in the corner due to Ermac's lack of any sort of armor.

Nope. Max ranged TKP(Dash into TKP) can only be punished with EX blade charge.

The rest is true, but you also have to remember the damage difference. Ermac touches you once and you lose 40%. You cant cross him up and you can't AA him either(iAB).

Definite 5-5 imo.

 

[TheTetraSpirit]

Nope. Max ranged TKP(Dash into TKP) can only be punished with EX blade charge.

The rest is true, but you also have to remember the damage difference. Ermac touches you once and you lose 40%. You cant cross him up and you can't AA him either(iAB).

Definite 5-5 imo.

The slightest pixel off a max range TKP will get punished, so I'd feel safe betting on them messing it up more than getting it right, especially in the heat of a match.
He also can't cross you over and I'm not entirely sure if Spin would win if he does his iAB too late.

 

[Zoidberg747]

The slightest pixel off a max range TKP will get punished, so I'd feel safe betting on them messing it up more than getting it right, especially in the heat of a match.
He also can't cross you over and I'm not entirely sure if Spin would win if he does his iAB too late.

Why would he want to cross you over? He is going to be spacing out with max ranged TKP. And if he knows the blade charge range, he will space it out. You and I both know that Baraka players can space out max range blade charge pretty damn well, so can Ermacs. iAB would win because he could do the iAB before the spin hits him.

Ermac has the advantage just outside of max blade charge range, Baraka has advantage in blade charge range. It is a huge spacing battle.

 

[TheTetraSpirit]

Why would he want to cross you over? He is going to be spacing out with max ranged TKP. And if he knows the blade charge range, he will space it out. You and I both know that Baraka players can space out max range blade charge pretty damn well, so can Ermacs. iAB would win because he could do the iAB before the spin hits him.

Ermac has the advantage just outside of max blade charge range, Baraka has advantage in blade charge range. It is a huge spacing battle.

And it's much easier for Baraka to be in further than TKP's max range than it is Ermac to keep him there.
He might squeeze off a handful of safe ones, but it's not gonna be something to rely on. He's gonna have to play some sort of close game very carefully to really get at you.

 

[Zoidberg747]

And it's much easier for Baraka to be in further than TKP's max range than it is Ermac to keep him there.
He might squeeze off a handful of safe ones, but it's not gonna be something to rely on. He's gonna have to play some sort of close game very carefully to really get at you.

If the ermac can space correctly, not really. If ermac sits at full screen or so, he can also throw fireballs to build meter and force you to come to him. Then when you start getting into range, he just has to dash tkp to check you. After that you will be in blade charge range so he wont throw any more, but he can still throw fireballs until you get in his face.

Up close you have an advantage against Ermac, but he is not useless. His d3 has decent range, 312 can lead to throw, mixups, etc. 121 has decent range. Any whiffed string can be punished by f2 into a combo.

I think you are underestimating Ermac's zoning game. Yeah he wont stay away forever, but he will build enough meter for a breaker or 50% combo to end the round.

 

[TheTetraSpirit]

If the ermac can space correctly, not really. If ermac sits at full screen or so, he can also throw fireballs to build meter and force you to come to him. Then when you start getting into range, he just has to dash tkp to check you. After that you will be in blade charge range so he wont throw any more, but he can still throw fireballs until you get in his face.

Up close you have an advantage against Ermac, but he is not useless. His d3 has decent range, 312 can lead to throw, mixups, etc. 121 has decent range. Any whiffed string can be punished by f2 into a combo.

I think you are underestimating Ermac's zoning game. Yeah he wont stay away forever, but he will build enough meter for a breaker or 50% combo to end the round.

Not really. His projectile is eh and will be ducked on reaction every time and push is always a risk if you slightly mis-space it.
He's certainly not helpless, he just has to be a bit more aggressive than he might otherwise.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Not really. His projectile is eh and will be ducked on reaction every time and push is always a risk if you slightly mis-space it.
He's certainly not helpless, he just has to be a bit more aggressive than he might otherwise.

Metzos can probably explain it better than me.

Whether you duck the projectile or not, it builds meter. Also, if you slightly mis-space it you get one blade charge. That isnt game over at that point. Not to mention the fact that again, at the HIGHEST level you do not mis-space attacks.

Also If I am just within sweep range and you try and advance, I can iAB which will either push you back or knock you down and give me free pressure.

 

[Gh0sty]

Thanks for the replies gents. From what I understand, this MU boils down to spacing quite a bit. Also at full screen, Ermac can mix it up with ex fireball, which can't be ducked.


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[TheTetraSpirit]

Metzos can probably explain it better than me.

Whether you duck the projectile or not, it builds meter. Also, if you slightly mis-space it you get one blade charge. That isnt game over at that point. Not to mention the fact that again, at the HIGHEST level you do not mis-space attacks.

Also If I am just within sweep range and you try and advance, I can iAB which will either push you back or knock you down and give me free pressure.

'Course it builds meter, but is anyone really gonna notice the tiny bit a naked special builds? Even if he throws 3-4 before you get within range again it's nothing. He needs blockstrings and blocked iAB for the majority of his meter here, which is certainly doable.

 

[Zoidberg747]

'Course it builds meter, but is anyone really gonna notice the tiny bit a naked special builds? Even if he throws 3-4 before you get within range again it's nothing. He needs blockstrings and blocked iAB for the majority of his meter here, which is certainly doable.

No but again, if he spaces it right he could also get tkps off as well.

Not to mention the fact that really any hit blockstring or normal leads to 50% combos. That has to be a factor taken into account.

 

[TheTetraSpirit]

No but again, if he spaces it right he could also get tkps off as well.

Not to mention the fact that really any hit blockstring or normal leads to 50% combos. That has to be a factor taken into account.

How often is he going to land a JiP? Really? It just doesn't happen often.
Whiff punishing shouldn't be happening much because there's not much need for Baraka to be super aggressive. He can back him into the corner and knock him closer with pokes and counters.

 

[Zoidberg747]

How often is he going to land a JiP? Really? It just doesn't happen often.
Whiff punishing shouldn't be happening much because there's not much need for Baraka to be super aggressive. He can back him into the corner and knock him closer with pokes and counters.

You don't necessarily have to have a jip. I would say most of his combos without a jip are still 40% meterless, up to 50% with meter.

But if you back him into a corner he can make use of iAB to keep you away. Can't he also punish a D4 if he dashes back and makes it whiff? I think he could even lift it, but not sure really.

 

[TheTetraSpirit]

You don't necessarily have to have a jip. I would say most of his combos without a jip are still 40% meterless, up to 50% with meter.

But if you back him into a corner he can make use of iAB to keep you away. Can't he also punish a D4 if he dashes back and makes it whiff? I think he could even lift it, but not sure really.

What I'm saying is, he doesn't get many combo opportunities outside of hard punishes and JiPs.
And if he wants to keep popping iAB in the corner he's going to get whiff punished by F44 or at the very least a charge.
Also yes, he can whiff punish D4s, but he'd need very good reactions as long as you're not constantly fishing for them.

 

[Zoidberg747]

What I'm saying is, he doesn't get many combo opportunities outside of hard punishes and JiPs.
And if he wants to keep popping iAB in the corner he's going to get whiff punished by F44 or at the very least a charge.
Also yes, he can whiff punish D4s, but he'd need very good reactions as long as you're not constantly fishing for them.

He gets a combo off of:
B34
312
F2
121
Naked lift
B12F1
B114
B2(Also fully charged one)

I see your point about iAB, but he only has to hit it once before he gets a free b2 mixup.

And with D4 my point is if you think he is going to d4, you can backdash to make it whiff.

He has plenty of combo opportunities