MK Matchup charts lists etc

[Gesture Required Ahead]

First of all i play skartlet and after a reset i dont get free chip damage like sonya does that is safe if blocked. Ex dagger cancels can be stopped easily by crouch blocking the dagger cancel then do d3 cause the f2 will whiff everyone. Plus is have to burn meter in order to keep up pressure. Her armor is great tho. I can d4 to red slide mix up u (u can poke my slide) but i love d4 to ms way better. Almost everything skarlet does is full combo punishable if blocked and all of her good strings are slow as hell and way negative on block if you dont cancel with a slide or daggers. Who else is the game has a -10 to -27 on block normals? Lastly why dont you see not one skarlet play at any tournament except for emp_scar who used her a few weeks ago but you see sonyas with your 4?

Well you were completely missing my point.But if you want to know why Skarlet would do Dagger after a reset is because if the opponent respects the everhead too much it's not worth to do Red Slide all the time which will do a mere 3% after a reset no one knows why but that's how it is. If you do a dagger cancel you get a shit load of chip untill they crouch block then you could overhead into a full combo again.

All of this is stated in @Used4Glue 's Skarlet guide.I suggest you check it out.

 

[Bildslash]

Yeah all of sonya strings whiff and only jail on JIP. But keep in mind sonya does land a lot of JIP cuz ppl are scared to AA her cuz of the dive kick. But if sonya is just doing 114 the person can armor through it or poke out before MS even comes out.

Poking out before MS comes out is a stretch.

MS has a 10 frame startup. 114 has +16 frame cancel advantage on block. Doing 114 xx MS by itself puts you at +6 frame, at that point grab or sweep go from 12 to 6 frames of execution. F1 turns to 9 frame (pokeable) and dash cancel leaves you at -5.

P.S.: I hope I got the frame numbers/formulas right.

 

[Khaotic_xShangx]

Well you were completely missing my point.But if you want to know why Skarlet would do Dagger after a reset is because if the opponent respects the everhead too much it's not worth to do Red Slide all the time which will do a mere 3% after a reset no one knows why but that's how it is. If you do a dagger cancel you get a shit load of chip untill they crouch block then you could overhead into a full combo again.

All of this is stated in @Used4Glue 's Skarlet guide.I suggest you check it out.

i got your point but the fact that you are wasting a bar of meter even doing the dagger cancel after a reset against a high level player is ridiculous because they will crouch block after the 112 hits and poke as soon as u come with the f2 or any of her strings matter of fact. They can say if you press if fast enough all they want. If they block low you are getting poked. Everyone at a high level knows how to get out of this ex dagger cancel now but with sonya you get a free 3% and +1 on block with f1 and space to do another d4 to ms or a possible cartwheel reset that is safe. I dont need to check a guide out for something i already know. go to the training room and put the cpu on crouch block and it will show all of what i am saying.

 

[Perfect Legend]

Yeah all of sonya strings whiff and only jail on JIP. But keep in mind sonya does land a lot of JIP cuz ppl are scared to AA her cuz of the dive kick. But if sonya is just doing 114 the person can armor through it or poke out before MS even comes out.

@PL why are you blocking MS F+1. Take the 2nd hit and reset the position. Sonya gets like 4-5 options of a blocked MSF+1.

Its dumb that I have to take the hit in general. There is never an instance in that matchup where Kung Lao should even hit sonya because of hit box nonsense but it is better than blocking that shit and dealing with hella shit.

 

[Perfect Legend]

We don't know for sure how bad/good Low Hat was. I'm merely talking on how the game performed back then. In that same vein, in the past Lao too had a 6 frame safe launcher until it was nerfed.

The post I quoted you mentioned Cartwheel, hence why I said a poke as a way out. I know MS F1 has advantage on block.

A safe launcher?

No

A bunch of chars could dash up and punish but the MK community is lazy. And the chars that couldnt dash up and punish could punish it with a fast special. For example ermac got 35% anytime he blocked it from anywhere on the screen.

 

[M2Dave]

Obviously, Kung Lao never had Cage's or Sonya's offensive options, but the fact that low hat was +20 on hit was ridiculous. Kung Lao has too much mobility to have good offense. He whiffs a dive kick and/or does a tele 3 and he is in vs. almost all zoning characters in the game. I do think low hat should have been made a little safer to help in the Cage and Sonya match up.

 

[Perfect Legend]

Obviously, Kung Lao never had Cage's or Sonya's offensive options, but the fact that low hat was +20 on hit was ridiculous. Kung Lao has too much mobility to have good offense. He whiffs a dive kick and/or does a tele 3 and he is in vs. almost all zoning characters in the game. I do think low hat should have been made a little safer to help in the Cage and Sonya match up.

KL's mobility means nothing when he can't physically hit a character =\. I wish people would stop over hyping him dive kicking. And its not even mobility all you have to do is stand at one spot of the screen and block and now he can now longer dive kick cause you will block it and he dies. Teleport don't let me get started. This one tool has so many different counters to it one being just crouch and he can't even touch you like wtf seriously NRS?

As I told Paulo. Low hat should have been unsafe like it is now but kept its advantage on hit or give him something that is quick and hits mid so he can play better footsies. Cause crouching eliminates kung laos offense.

Whats funny is the way KL was initially was designed was perfect for his char design. Spin pushed back but if it whiffed he died and a bunch of chars could dash up and punish him on block or do quick specials and really hurt him. Spin was also his answer for people who want to do d4's all day without having to worry about much. And he had good damage, but now nope his damage is ass and his risk reward is terrible now on pretty much everything besides doing overheads that don't do anything but give a slap on the wrist.

AND THEY STILL HAVE NOT FUCKING FIXED THE THROW GLITCH.

Kung Lao can throw you and if he dashes and tries to block he is block disabled and can't even block a wake up attack he has to walk then block thus losing his pressure smfh.

This game........

 

[Death]

+18 on hit is ridiculous. KL got 2 safe overhead options with the low hat nerf. Ill agree with Low hat being -7 on block like it used to be but +18 is ridiculous.

 

[NKZero]

KL's mobility means nothing when he can't physically hit a character =\. I wish people would stop over hyping him dive kicking. And its not even mobility all you have to do is stand at one spot of the screen and block and now he can now longer dive kick cause you will block it and he dies. Teleport don't let me get started. This one tool has so many different counters to it one being just crouch and he can't even touch you like wtf seriously NRS?

As I told Paulo. Low hat should have been unsafe like it is now but kept its advantage on hit or give him something that is quick and hits mid so he can play better footsies. Cause crouching eliminates kung laos offense.

I don't know Kung Lao so this is an honest question....what's the hit-level for standing 2? Can you not make contact with crouch blocking opponents? Also what d'you think about F2?

 

[Perfect Legend]

I don't know Kung Lao so this is an honest question....what's the hit-level for standing 2? Can you not make contact with crouch blocking opponents? Also what d'you think about F2?

2 hits high on crouch blocking opponents depending on how low their hit box is when they crouch block and he also has to space it properly or it will totally whiff.

f2 is good however its not like he gets a combo from his overhead and his overhead is unsafe its like -9. But freddy has a safe b2 that can combo. Cage has a safe over head, Sonya's overhead gives a safe jump, Raiden has a safe but slow as hella overhead. Mileenas overhead is +9.

You see my point here.

 

[Perfect Legend]

+18 on hit is ridiculous. KL got 2 safe overhead options with the low hat nerf. Ill agree with Low hat being -7 on block like it used to be but +18 is ridiculous.

He can't even pressure from his overheads. f2 is only +2 wtf am I going to do? d3? i'm not going to do 2 because everyone is going to mash d3 and since my d3 is 9 frames it doesnt mean shit you will randomly win. I have to always take a defensive position.

How is +18 ridiculous when you have a safe over head with Sonya and Mileena (mileena's being +9 on block) that guarantees more pressure or a combo (sonya pressure, mileena combo) but me all I get is pressure and all you have to do is block it low? Lol what?

And sonya has pretty much Kung Lao's roll but launches on hit and has armor? lol what? are you serious. All I get is pressure for a mixup but you get a full combo yea ok I see your logic

 

[M2Dave]

Perfect Legend, if I am Freddy or Noob and I throw a projectile full screen away, Kung Lao dive kicks over the projectile on reaction and is already in my face. How is that not a big advantage? Tele 3 has weaknesses, but it is still one of the better anti-zoning tools in the game. You said zoning is not strong in this game. Kung Lao is one of the reasons why. LOL.

 

[Perfect Legend]

Perfect Legend, if I am Freddy or Noob and I throw a projectile full screen away, Kung Lao dive kicks over the projectile on reaction and is already in my face. How is that not a big advantage? Tele 3 has weaknesses, but it is still one of the better anti-zoning tools in the game. You said zoning is not strong in this game. Kung Lao is one of the reasons why. LOL.

I watched you vs KL on stream at console combat. It looks like you don't know NS totally avoids all of his Teleport stuff =\. Whenever I fight KL they can't ever hit me when I am freddy. And he cant just blindly react to a projectile and dive kick over it only if you are just throwing shit out.

 

[M2Dave]

I watched you vs KL on stream at console combat. It looks like you don't know NS totally avoids all of his Teleport stuff =\. Whenever I fight KL they can't ever hit me when I am freddy. And he cant just blindly react to a projectile and dive kick over it only if you are just throwing shit out.

You cannot enter NMS in reaction to tele 3 because NMS is not instant and has start up frames. And nothing in NMS auto-corrects to hit tele 3 while you are already in NMS. Freddy's best anti-tele 3 option is forward dashing in advance and punishing with EX spike or using Pig's d+1 strategy. I do well vs. Kung Lao. I just do not play the match up often any more because Master D. quit the character after the patch. LOL.

 

[Perfect Legend]

It doesn't need to auto correct. NS avoids teleport just throw a claw then go into nightmare stance just incase he teleports or dive kicks. And NS 1 hits him out of dive kick lol

 

[MortySeinfeld]

this man has a good point here. sonya up close is dangerous. Hey morty, why do yall never start anything with 31 string? Are the frames too slow on the 3 to come out?

It has slow startup and is crouchable (Can be poked during the 1). I mostly use this string after a jump-in punch to jail them standing.

The 312 string is a good replacement for the 114 string when players start to adapt to the idea of poking in the 114 xx ms holes. However there are enough mix-up options with the JIP 114 string that it is still very useful for block damage.

312 xx ms is +15 so you can get an overhead tackle attempt or f1; dash throw; etc.

If you catch your opponent respecting the 312 string you can somewhat cut it short by doing things like: 31, 31, 312 xx ms (etc.) Although the follow-up 31 and 312 would be crouchable because you've ended the standing jail after the 1st JIP block string attempt so I try not to use this that much.

I have also been experimenting with using 31 as a combo starter doing the following:

- 31, dash, 11 xx cartwheel, dash 112 xx ms (reset options)
- 31, dash 1, dash, 21 xx cartwheel, dash 2 xx leg grab (positional advantage)

She also has some shenanigans in the corner with the 31 and 312 string.

- 31, d1, 1, 21 xx cartwheel, 1, 1, 112 xx ms (reset options)

This is the best i've come up with off the top of my head, i'm sure someone else could squeeze out an extra 1% or more here or there. I still need to mess with it a bit more.

 

[MortySeinfeld]

It's not so much what you can poke out of that matters, but having to make the read itself from a wide array of options. I mean, you can poke out of Cage's pressure at several points, the problem is figuring out when.

The thing with those characters is that in most cases if you guess wrong the put you back in the same guessing/reading scenario.

The problem with fighting Cage is our best players on these forums are telling everyone to stand block against him out of fear of the random advantage bug.

When you are standing, you have slower strings at your disposal.

d1's and d3's are universally your fastest normals in the game, and you need to break up Cage's pressure.

People as of late also do not account for hitboxes since we're so absorbed in the idea of understanding frame-data (as the MK community grows). There are a lot of characters that have d3's that lower their hitboxes which makes counter-poking Cage's F3 much more reasonable.

Online Cage is a monster, I believe people are also reading into the lag a lot because it's very difficult for most people to escape pressure.

Most players also tend to hold the 'up' direction too much to escape pressure which doesn't fare well when attempting to defend against Cage.

 

[MortySeinfeld]

It doesn't need to auto correct. NS avoids teleport just throw a claw then go into nightmare stance just incase he teleports or dive kicks. And NS 1 hits him out of dive kick lol

NMS xx 1 will whiff against teleport (Freddy ends up behind Kung Lao).

 

[1man3letters]

Who else is the game has a -10 to -27 on block normals?

have u ever looked at the baraka frame data?
4 -20
b11 -14
b2 -20
b31 -11
b31f1 -15
b32 - 18
b322 -14
f22 -22
u4 -29 (thats on a move with 33 frames start up!)

and im not even counting all the normals -10 and below

 

[bipolar_shango]

A character has to be fun to use. Sonya is really boring because of how braindead she is. Cartwheel shouldn't be Safe on block and have armor =\

Cage is not boring? And FYI after cartwheel Sonya looses all pressure. IIRC its -4.

EDIT: Its -3 so unless your fastest normal/poke is more than 9 frames cartwheel = get out of jail free card for opponent. It can be njp for crying out loud! Your character has an armour teleport! An armour teleport that you can combo off!! And a meterless 6 FRAME move to get out of pressure. Mannn GTFO!

 

[Perfect Legend]

Cage is not boring? And FYI after cartwheel Sonya looses all pressure. IIRC its -4.

EDIT: Its -3 so unless your fastest normal/poke is more than 9 frames cartwheel = get out of jail free card for opponent. It can be njp for crying out loud! Your character has an armour teleport! An armour teleport that you can combo off!! And a meterless 6 FRAME move to get out of pressure. Mannn GTFO!

Oh you mean an armored teleport you can easily jump away from? lol nice try. You can only neutral jump punch if you know the cartwheel is coming. God forbid you try to rush sonya down its not like you can even hit her anyways because of her low hit box. Thank you d4

 

[UsedForGlue]

The best characters to pick vs. Cage are:

1) Kabal
2) Kenshi
3) Freddy/Sektor

Hey man, I was wondering, does Freddy have the same problem as Noob once Cage gets in? Does he have anything other than and breaker to get him off?

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

This certainly sounds like a crybaby thread to me.

 

[NKZero]

Cage is not boring? And FYI after cartwheel Sonya looses all pressure. IIRC its -4.

EDIT: Its -3 so unless your fastest normal/poke is more than 9 frames cartwheel = get out of jail free card for opponent. It can be njp for crying out loud! Your character has an armour teleport! An armour teleport that you can combo off!! And a meterless 6 FRAME move to get out of pressure. Mannn GTFO!

please tell me you aren't comparing Kung Lao to Sonya because it's no contest at the moment. Pre-patch yes but now? Kung Lao is basically Sektor at this point in time. Two surefire top 10 characters but nothing else. They are based on fundamentals and are thus hard to master and they don't have too much bullshit unlike a real top tier character such as Sonya, Kenshi, Kabal and I still maintain Raiden (except he doesn't have bullshit he's just good as he is). I don't buy Cage being there though.

 

[bipolar_shango]

please tell me you aren't comparing Kung Lao to Sonya because it's no contest at the moment. Pre-patch yes but now? Kung Lao is basically Sektor at this point in time. Two surefire top 10 characters but nothing else. They are based on fundamentals and are thus hard to master and they don't have too much bullshit unlike a real top tier character such as Sonya, Kenshi, Kabal and I still maintain Raiden (except he doesn't have bullshit he's just good as he is). I don't buy Cage being there though.

IMO Kung lao is still Bs. The problem is that OG Lao players don't want to adjust and forget about 2,4 low hat. Very little has changed for Lao apart from that. His spin was always punishable and his overhead got buffed so I think he's still very good. You just need to think (a bit) now.