MK9: Unofficial Tier List Speculation, and/or Character Shenanigans Discussion!

[lobo]

ROFL d_matt_ma...lemme guess you are playing baraka and sheeva? two games in a row...you are such a masochist.

 

[MKF30]

I think Baraka and Stryker need to be buffed.

 

[Gast]

I kind of agree with d_matt_ma´s opinions on Sheeva. I´m no Sheeva master, but I have some opinions on her. I think her corner game is strong, but her mid-screen game is really bad. Jump Stomp is unreliable and Ground Pound is just asking to get teleported or get hit by a fast projectile.

In the corner, Sheeva has a (theoretically) flawless offense and an answer to everything. Combos ending with DF1 ensures that the opponent gets NO wake-up in the corner and Sheeva gets a free first hit with the opponent being unable to do anything but block. The only real way for the opponent to counters Sheevas corner offense is to sweep or with crouching attacks and thats where the low grab comes in.

And of course, almost nothing of her corner game works mid-screen where she is horribly gimped. If you can stay out of the corner (which shouldnt be too har because Sheeva can´t put you in the corner outside of tag) then she is not a threat. While she can get good damage off some of her lows, they aren´t a serious threat since they are sooooo slooooooooow you can easily react to them.

Almost all her EX moves are terrible and doesent do much except add a few percent of damage. The only EX moves actually worth using are the EX low grab and BF3. Low grab has armor and with BF3 you get to pick in what direction you will toss the opponent afterwards. All other EX moves just seem like a waste of meter.

It seems like she has some neat tricks, only problem is she can´t really employ them. Mutantmagnet also made a really good point about how ridiculously stance dependant Sheeva is. Also some of her bnb´s whiff against Kitana and Mileena which is also pretty bad.

 

[Dandy J]

So after a long set of [irl] Kung Lao mirrors yesterday, I'm even more convinced that his spin needs to have Kabal's runpast recoil on block. And please don't say I'm a whiner because I won 99% of the matches lol! On whiff it's fine but when the blockstun comes into play that shit is stupid. Spin recoil on block, xray damage+gravity, little more recovery on low hat = fixed kung lao.

 

[RWDY Nori]

I punish it pretty consistently and I'm sure others who play against KL more often do also. You said you played a "long set of KL mirrors" and that's a good start. He's not as scary as people make him out to be, just have to get used to punishing it on reaction.

 

[Dandy J]

But what character do you use? Some characters have good strings that are fast with long range, while others have a fast move they can use+low damage, and some are just regulated to having to time dash up jabs perfectly if they want good damage. With Kung Lao I was just using dash up spin for a consistent punish, but not everyone has that luxury. IMO it's just a move that should be universally punishable with dash up jabs or a standard punish bnb combo with any character, without requiring perfect timing. I don't see the problem with thinking that, since every teleport attack in the game, Raiden's superman, Kabal's runpast, Kano's ball etc. have huge recoil animations or flip off you and spin in the air for 5 years. Kung Lao's spin is at least as good as any of those moves, and thus should be treated similarly on block.

 

[lobo]

i get 50% damage for free off a blocked KL spin.

spam it more plz.

^^^^

if i can punish it with an i18 launcher, it isn't broke...period...

 

[RWDY Nori]

But what character do you use? Some characters have good strings that are fast with long range, while others have a fast move they can use+low damage, and some are just regulated to having to time dash up jabs perfectly if they want good damage. With Kung Lao I was just using dash up spin for a consistent punish, but not everyone has that luxury. IMO it's just a move that should be universally punishable with dash up jabs or a standard punish bnb combo with any character, without requiring perfect timing. I don't see the problem with thinking that, since every teleport attack in the game, Raiden's superman, Kabal's runpast, Kano's ball etc. have huge recoil animations or flip off you and spin in the air for 5 years. Kung Lao's spin is at least as good as any of those moves, and thus should be treated similarly on block.

My main in Shang, so believe me it is a HUGE pain in the ass to punish it on reaction. My other 2 chars I use for tournaments (cause I'm not convinced Shang sucks against anybody with a teleport) is Reptile/NW, who as you probably know have zero issues punishing it. I get what you are saying, but when you see it after a while, it does have a unique animation. He stops all this sudden like he's drunk and IMO, you can't just react to it, you have to LOOK for it. I guess I feel more rewarded when I punish it now then if they make it easier

 

[Action Kungfu]

^^^^

if i can punish it with an i18 launcher, it isn't broke...period...

I don't think he even said it was broke in the first place.

But what character do you use? Some characters have good strings that are fast with long range, while others have a fast move they can use+low damage, and some are just regulated to having to time dash up jabs perfectly if they want good damage. With Kung Lao I was just using dash up spin for a consistent punish, but not everyone has that luxury. IMO it's just a move that should be universally punishable with dash up jabs or a standard punish bnb combo with any character, without requiring perfect timing. I don't see the problem with thinking that, since every teleport attack in the game, Raiden's superman, Kabal's runpast, Kano's ball etc. have huge recoil animations or flip off you and spin in the air for 5 years. Kung Lao's spin is at least as good as any of those moves, and thus should be treated similarly on block.

I totally agree with you, and I think that's also because we have a different(just different, not better or worse) understanding of risk/rewards based on utility, start up speed, and damage reward from it, from playing and understanding games like VF to an increased level. I've come to the conclusion that some people love exploiting skewed odds, and enjoy barriers to certain gameplay aspects to include character selection barriers.

 

[dookieagain]

^^^^

if i can punish it with an i18 launcher, it isn't broke...period...

But what if you're one of those characters who can only punish it with either a very low damage special or a single hit normal. Isn't it kind of ridiculous that he gets 40% damage if it hits and you get 8% if you make a tight punish? If they sped up Stryker's dash to let him get a full combo punish on that or reptile dash I'd say for sure that it's fair. But as it stands if you're playing a character who is lower tier why not risk spinning against them when they're working to punish you for 1/5 the damage you'll get if it hits?

 

[RWDY Nori]

If you are playing a low tier char, aren't you going to have a lot more problems than just KL's spin?

 

[lobo]

If you are playing a low tier char, aren't you going to have a lot more problems than just KL's spin?

pretty much this.

the matchup between every set of two characters is NEVER going to be even. learn to counterpick. if you can only get 8% as a punisher and that move is raping you...well maybe it is time to play someone else for that matchup.

 

[dookieagain]

If you are playing a low tier char, aren't you going to have a lot more problems than just KL's spin?

Sure but if I get a good read as any character shouldn't I get a full punish? I mean whatever my character is I blocked an unsafe move that seems like it's supposed to reward me with a combo, should my character choice dictate that I don't get it because they made the punish window weirdly small on two moves?

 

[Sutter Pain]

If you are playing a low tier char, aren't you going to have a lot more problems than just KL's spin?

I think he is speaking in terms of general character balance then in terms of a straight matchup. I have like zero kung lao experience so I cant comment on the ease of punishing his spin.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Sure but if I get a good read as any character shouldn't I get a full punish? I mean whatever my character is I blocked an unsafe move that seems like it's supposed to reward me with a combo, should my character choice dictate that I don't get it because they made the punish window weirdly small on two moves?

Every char can get something. Which char specifically only gets 8%? When you see the move often enough, you can dash up and punish it. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed/fixed/made easier.

What people are not realizing about KL is that's really all he has. If anybody has ever played SF, you will realize the window to punish a SRK is small and some chars can really destroy it, some can't. You can get quite ridiculous things off of a simple SRK and if it's punished, it's usually nowhere near a 3rd of a shoto's life gone.

KL needs his spin to win w/out he is not as scary as everybody makes him out to be. Teleport is not that great. His hats are good, not great. His divekick is HIGHLY punishable and you have 2 hours to do it. With his spin, yes, it's harder to punish but you CAN punish it and get great damage if you pay attention. His overhead is not good, it's pretty slow actually. If more people spent time paying attention to when to block the spin, we wouldn't be even having this debate

 

[dookieagain]

Every char can get something. Which char specifically only gets 8%? When you see the move often enough, you can dash up and punish it. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed/fixed/made easier.

What people are not realizing about KL is that's really all he has. If anybody has ever played SF, you will realize the window to punish a SRK is small and some chars can really destroy it, some can't. You can get quite ridiculous things off of a simple SRK and if it's punished, it's usually nowhere near a 3rd of a shoto's life gone.

KL needs his spin to win w/out he is not as scary as everybody makes him out to be. Teleport is not that great. His hats are good, not great. His divekick is HIGHLY punishable and you have 2 hours to do it. With his spin, yes, it's harder to punish but you CAN punish it and get great damage if you pay attention. His overhead is not good, it's pretty slow actually. If more people spent time paying attention to when to block the spin, we wouldn't be even having this debate

Stryker's only options for punishing the spin are dash up or Sweep. The max damage he gets from that is 8%.

Secondly any character in SSFIV can punish any blocked SRK with raw ultra among other things. The fastest blocked Shoryuken is -14 the ex is -41. Saying a shoto isn't losing 1/3 their health on a blocked jab Shoryuken is completely wrong. They should always take maximum punishment. There's a reason no good player Shoryukens without two meters to make it safe.

Also I am not saying they should take away or change spin at all. Merely make it so the window for punishment is large enough that every character can get a full combo if they block it.

As I said I would be fine with them making Stryker's combo starter faster so it could punish in line with other members of the cast. But as it stands it is a matchup destroying element that even when you block what is supposed to be a high risk move the punishment is not commensurate to the reward.

 

[RWDY Nori]

I can name at least 2 moves in every game where some chars can punish a move hard and some can't. It's why we have matchups. Based on what you are saying, that sucks for Stryker players, yet I'm sure he has tools that other chars would kill for.

As for SSF4, not ever char will always have access to ultra. And Gief cannot ultra after a block SRK and many can't. Hence, it's matchup based, just as this game is.

 

[DanCock]

kung needs a buff, hes missing a 100% combo and a infinite.

 

[RWDY Nori]

kung needs a buff, hes missing a 100% combo and a infinite.

You don't have to agree w/me, but mindless sarcasm isn't cool

 

[dookieagain]

Default

I can name at least 2 moves in every game where some chars can punish a move hard and some can't. It's why we have matchups. Based on what you are saying, that sucks for Stryker players, yet I'm sure he has tools that other chars would kill for.

As for SSF4, not ever char will always have access to ultra. And Gief cannot ultra after a block SRK and many can't. Hence, it's matchup based, just as this game is.

Gief's ultra is a zero frame grab. He can Ultra a blocked SRK, he can focus crumple then Ultra. Did you even play SSFIV?

And I'm not arguing there shouldn't be bad matchups, but I cannot think of any balanced fighter where a move with as much reward as Spin has as little risk as it does against certain cast members. But I guess MK should have characters who are useless. It makes a game more fun when only 6 characters are tournament viable.

Secondly every character in this game has X-ray, and I think they can all naked X-ray punish most combo starting specials. Why should a move that rewards full combo on hit only be punishable with full combo by some of the cast?

Also this is not restricted to Kung Lao, Reptile's dash has the same issue.

 

[Dandy J]

if i can punish it with an i18 launcher, it isn't broke...period...

So because you can punish it with the easiest+best move to punish it with in the game, it's fine? Okay, lol.

My main in Shang, so believe me it is a HUGE pain in the ass to punish it on reaction.

I wouldn't put Shang on the list of characters that have a problem punishing it, dash f+4,3,4 isn't nearly as bad as others. At least he gets an actual combo.

Every char can get something.

Yes, everyone gets 'something', but if that something is a 10% special or string from Stryker, Scorp, Jax, etc., you might as well be giving him back life. That's assuming you are actually 100% ready for it. Even chars that do get full combos, a lot require reacting and executing the dash accurately and is easily missable. There are certain moves that should be only punishable this way, but Kung Lao's spin isn't one of them.

What people are not realizing about KL is that's really all he has.

WTF? Ground hat pressure? One of the best throws in the game and a million ways to mix up into it? One of the best x-ray's in the game? One of the best + safest ways to get in in the game (en body slide!)?

the matchup between every set of two characters is NEVER going to be even. learn to counterpick. if you can only get 8% as a punisher and that move is raping you...well maybe it is time to play someone else for that matchup.

The point of this conversation is the analyzation of a move and its risk/reward. Yes, when it comes down to it, people will counter-pick. That's not the point. The point is, in an ideal game, there is a basic semblance of balance. That's fine that you accept the game, with it's flaws or inconsistencies intact, I do to. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to suggest changes that I think will make the game better. Imagine if no one complained about the button config, or the netcode. If no one speaks up, nothing changes. It's not the biggest deal in the world but I think the move should have recoil on block, that's all.

If anybody has ever played SF, you will realize the window to punish a SRK is small and some chars can really destroy it, some can't. You can get quite ridiculous things off of a simple SRK and if it's punished, it's usually nowhere near a 3rd of a shoto's life gone.

I have followed SF, but it doesn't sound like you have. Whiff or blocked DP = full combo from whoever the other character is, unless you're talking about SF2 series, in which case I hope you are not because there is no sense in comparing a modern game to SF2 where the simplest 2 hit combo does 30%.

 

[DanCock]

You don't have to agree w/me, but mindless sarcasm isn't cool

its not directed at you sir.. sorry if you took it that way..

if you look at the thread i been posting randomly about kung..

 

[lobo]

i think that a lot of this goes back to someone's earlier observation about 2d vs 3d players coming to MK.

as someone who has never played any 2d game competitively before this one, i still view it through my "soul calibur shaded glasses.

the way i am going about learning the game is by knowing my character's punishers, learning exactly how to punish all of the other characters and what i percieve to be their strong moves. i am used to the idea of some characters being great at punishing as their strength, which is why i choose them. i think nori is looking at it the same way. you 2d guys seem to be used to punishment being roughly equal among characters, and base your strategy more around forcing offensive mixups then studying punishment capabilities.

it is two completely different, yet equally valid approaches to learning the game. the fact that you can play it either way is, i believe, the reason why so many of us from the calibur/tekken scenes have taken such a strong liking to this game.

just because your usual methodology doesn't work on KL, does not mean he needs a nerf AT ALL. look into punishing characters, and explore your options beginning there. don't expect all of them to have the same, or even similar capabilities.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Gief's ultra is a zero frame grab. He can Ultra a blocked SRK, he can focus crumple then Ultra. Did you even play SSFIV?

And I'm not arguing there shouldn't be bad matchups, but I cannot think of any balanced fighter where a move with as much reward as Spin has as little risk as it does against certain cast members. But I guess MK should have characters who are useless. It makes a game more fun when only 6 characters are tournament viable.

Secondly every character in this game has X-ray, and I think they can all naked X-ray punish most combo starting specials. Why should a move that rewards full combo on hit only be punishable with full combo by some of the cast?

I said BLOCKED SRK, not focus. Obviously, you can focus to Ultra, but that's not what I said. If you are going to be sarcastic, at least pay attention to what I'm saying. Again, you cannot BLOCK a SRK and dash up and ultra.

And now you are going off the deep end here about 6 chars tourney viable. Who, besides you, thinks this? Matter of fact, I don't even think you think this, you are saying it just exaggerate your point. There are 2-3 chars that will have a very hard time winning a tournament right now. Yet, the game is out 3 weeks. Again, 3 weeks, not 4 months.

With your logic, nothing should be safe if you can do big damage off of it. Nightwolf's hatchet leads to half life sometimes and is 100% safe. Are we asking NRS to patch this also?

In tekken if you block a hopkick, you get jabs. JABS, not 30-50% combos like this game. If you get HIT by a hopkick, especially if you are near a wall, most of the time you just lost half life.

 

[RWDY Nori]

I have followed SF, but it doesn't sound like you have. Whiff or blocked DP = full combo from whoever the other character is, unless you're talking about SF2 series, in which case I hope you are not because there is no sense in comparing a modern game to SF2 where the simplest 2 hit combo does 30%.

I played SSF4 since it came out and played in tournaments for it since it came out. Not every char can get 40-50%, especially gief.

I guess I should be more specific: LIGHT SRK. Heavy SRK, then sure pick your poison. Light? No, not every char can and you know that