MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

[Felipe_Gewehr]

Nitara being S is surprising as I feel she's rarely seen, at least competitively. Call me crazy but Mileena could replace her there. This is based off strictly tournament results and what I see in brackets on a normal basis. Shao and Rains placements look good speaking on who I play, I think Rain could arguably be A but really needs a throw combo it seems to be that effective.

I main both Nitara and Mileena - Mileena has better buttons, decent damage and more health, but Nitara is a non-stop 50/50 machine with the best mobility AND damage in the game. Mileena has to work much smarter to actually make people open up, while Nitara is just piling up mental stacks at every second and doing blitzkriege tactics until the opponent makes a SINGLE mistake and gets punished by 47% into another mix.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

I main both Nitara and Mileena - Mileena has better buttons, decent damage and more health, but Nitara is a non-stop 50/50 machine with the best mobility AND damage in the game. Mileena has to work much smarter to actually make people open up, while Nitara is just piling up mental stacks at every second and doing blitzkriege tactics until the opponent makes a SINGLE mistake and gets punished by 47% into another mix.

I don't see how much smarter you need to be to open someone up with Mileena. Lao Hat + F4 has been one of if not thee most single effective mix in Mortal Kombat 1 competitively. It's beaten every top player at some point, including as recent as hourglass beating both NinjaKilla and Unjust back to back over the weekend. I ain't seeing Nitara do anything really competitively, which is why I say that.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

I don't see how much smarter you need to be to open someone up with Mileena. Lao Hat + F4 has been one of if not thee most single effective mix in Mortal Kombat 1 competitively. It's beaten every top player at some point, including as recent as hourglass beating both NinjaKilla and Unjust back to back over the weekend. I ain't seeing Nitara do anything really competitively, which is why I say that.

Yes, but the rewards for lao hat into F4 are also minimal, where Nitara's S3 into Sonya overhead S34 into square wave are a half health bar depleted - both options fully safe and unfuzzyable, mind you.

Mileena needs to space herself much more precisely to whiff punish and must have reactions on point, while Nitara just needs to air dash back into divekick and is instantly in your face mixing, from anywhere on screen.

Flawless blocking Mileena's 12 will neuter half her gameplan, and while Upblocking Nitara might do the same, she can bait those much more consistently.

Tl;dr: Nitara can start her gameplan much faster and safer than Mileena, which needs to have at least some degree of methodic positioning before enforcing her tools (even though yolo ballroll is a thing).

There about as many Nitaras in top8 in R1P's Arena as there are Mileenas there, from what I can recall, too - which is to say: few ones. It might be the case of there simply being less interest in playing her at higher levels, though that doesn't necessarily mean she is worse than Mileena. Sindel/Tremor is certainly not, and we also see few ones beating the famous top players.

At the end of the day, I can offer only insight on what I know considering these are my 2 most played characters, but tier lists are of course subjective at the end of the day.

 

[Eldriken]

I figured tier lists were more centered around potential than tournament placings.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

I figured tier lists were more centered around potential than tournament placings.

I think historically that is the case, but I would personally find tier lists centered around actual tournament placings VERY interesting as well.

Remember, no Kabal ever won EVO during MK9!!! Consistent top 8s, sure, but winning? Nope. This feels like it should have some weight, somehow. So I perfectly understand maybe swapping Nitara for Mileena, I just need more nerd data to ponder upon.

 

[NHDR]

I figured tier lists were more centered around potential than tournament placings.

Yeah, agreed. I've always understood character placement to be based on tools and matchups. The thing with relying on tourney placings is that sometimes you can have a good player who takes a weaker character far because they are just that damn good (ex. Kuroda's Q in SF3). Does that mean the character is high on the tier or that the player is just able to compensate for it better?

 

[Eldriken]

I think historically that is the case, but I would personally find tier lists centered around actual tournament placings VERY interesting as well.

Remember, no Kabal ever won EVO during MK9!!! Consistent top 8s, sure, but winning? Nope. This feels like it should have some weight, somehow. So I perfectly understand maybe swapping Nitara for Mileena, I just need more nerd data to ponder upon.

Yeah, agreed. I've always understood character placement to be based on tools and matchups. The thing with relying on tourney placings is that sometimes you can have a good player who takes a weaker character far because they are just that damn good (ex. Kuroda's Q in SF3). Does that mean the character is high on the tier or that the player is just able to compensate for it better?

I'm replying to you both in the same quote 'cause NHDR answered exactly how I was going to. This is why I don't think tournament wins should hold any weight at all.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

I think historically that is the case, but I would personally find tier lists centered around actual tournament placings VERY interesting as well.

Remember, no Kabal ever won EVO during MK9!!! Consistent top 8s, sure, but winning? Nope. This feels like it should have some weight, somehow. So I perfectly understand maybe swapping Nitara for Mileena, I just need more nerd data to ponder upon.

Agreed and great points. I am also taking into consideration certain kameos, if this tier list was based on being kameoless then I don't think I would say that. With Lao/Kham I still think she could have an argument as I don't think those teams have to play neutral really at all. Her gameplan is always on. Hitting 400+ into looping armor breaking pressure etc.

I definitely feel part of it may be that tournament players just don't want to either put the effort in or are scared of getting 2 shot by most teams with Nitara. I think you might be right at the end of the day because that character is a menace and I have been seeing the Nitara/Sonya wave recently. The S3 mix sounds nasty

 

[Eldriken]

Agreed and great points. I am also taking into consideration certain kameos, if this tier list was based on being kameoless then I don't think I would say that. With Lao/Kham I still think she could have an argument as I don't think those teams have to play neutral really at all. Her gameplan is always on. Hitting 400+ into looping armor breaking pressure etc.

I definitely feel part of it may be that tournament players just don't want to either put the effort in or are scared of getting 2 shot by most teams with Nitara. I think you might be right at the end of the day because that character is a menace and I have been seeing the Nitara/Sonya wave recently. The S3 mix sounds nasty

I see Nitara/Sonya waaaaay more than I see Nitara/Ferra now. It's sickening. I do not enjoy playing against Nitara under any circumstances, but Sonya and Ferra make it infinitely worse.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

I see Nitara/Sonya waaaaay more than I see Nitara/Ferra now. It's sickening. I do not enjoy playing against Nitara under any circumstances, but Sonya and Ferra make it infinitely worse.

Nitara/Sonya is the easiest way to deal massive damage with the least risk - aaand you get a great projectile too! Which is why my dumb lazy ass loves this pair so much.

Ferra can give you even better damage, though at the cost of being interruptable on most strings.

DARRIUS is surprisingly good as well, at least for mixups on knockdown - though not much else, and requires some effort to learn the mechanics (something I am, again, too lazy to do).

Khameleon can get some things going on, but makes her an even more glassy canon - barely worth it, IMO. It was her best kameo before Sonya got buffed, though.

Tremor seems like he has some synergy but I've seen very few examples of it.

Shujinko is also not a bad kameo at all for her, as he gives good damage confirms, a health boost and some unorthodox bonus.

There is no justifiable reason to use any other kameos beside these 6 with Nitara, unless you just want to have fun.

 

[LEGEND]

I think historically that is the case, but I would personally find tier lists centered around actual tournament placings VERY interesting as well.

Remember, no Kabal ever won EVO during MK9!!! Consistent top 8s, sure, but winning? Nope. This feels like it should have some weight, somehow. So I perfectly understand maybe swapping Nitara for Mileena, I just need more nerd data to ponder upon.

Its interesting to think about if tier lists should be more about potential, or who's more likely to win you a tournament.

Good point about MK9 Kabal. How many times have we seen even top Kabal players mess up a NDC, bonk there head against the opponent then die? Whereas characters like Cyrax, Lao and others can be played with much less execution and have an unproblematic matchup spread as well.
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You can extend this line of thinking into matchups as well. Sure a matchup can be 5-5 at the highest level, but often one character has to be piloted with more precision to achieve that.

 

[M2Dave]

Nitara being S is surprising as I feel she's rarely seen, at least competitively. Call me crazy but Mileena could replace her there. This is based off strictly tournament results and what I see in brackets on a normal basis.

Good point.

Dexy and Hourglass perform very well in online tournaments.

By comparison, Nitara's representation is less common while her results are less consistent.

^ agreed… why is Ashrah this low I wonder?

She is an uncommon tournament character who lacks perfect synergy with any one kameo.

Sareena is essentially the space control "variation", but you have no access to meta-defining aspects (i.e., launching armor, combos from your throw, upgraded combo conversions, etc.)

Mavado provides access to those aspects, but you lose your space control.

Ashrah players overly rely on f+3 in Kombat League, but this overhead is gimmicky. When I fought the Kings offline, they blocked f+3 almost every time. I struggled breaking them down defensively.

I suspect that Mavado is probably Ashrah's best kameo in most match ups while Sareena remains useful in certain others.

You could theoretically argue that Ashrah/Mavado could be in A tier in place of a character like General Shao. The issue is that General Shao is a more common and more successful tournament character.

 

[Eldriken]

Good point.

Dexy and Hourglass perform very well in online tournaments.

By comparison, Nitara's representation is less common while her results are less consistent.



She is an uncommon tournament character who lacks perfect synergy with any one kameo.

Sareena is essentially the space control "variation", but you have no access to meta-defining aspects (i.e., launching armor, combos from your throw, upgraded combo conversions, etc.)

Mavado provides access to those aspects, but you lose your space control.

Ashrah players overly rely on f+3 in Kombat League, but this overhead is gimmicky. When I fought the Kings offline, they blocked f+3 almost every time. I struggled breaking them down defensively.

I suspect that Mavado is probably Ashrah's best kameo in most match ups while Sareena remains useful in certain others.

You could theoretically argue that Ashrah/Mavado could be in A tier in place of a character like General Shao. The issue is that General Shao is a more common and more successful tournament character.

Fuck. Ashrah.

She's such an "I can do whatever I want on wakeup" character with that stupid super armor shit she's got going on.

 

[Trickywizard]

She is an uncommon tournament character who lacks perfect synergy with any one kameo.

Sareena is essentially the space control "variation", but you have no access to meta-defining aspects (i.e., launching armor, combos from your throw, upgraded combo conversions, etc.)

Mavado provides access to those aspects, but you lose your space control.

Ashrah players overly rely on f+3 in Kombat League, but this overhead is gimmicky. When I fought the Kings offline, they blocked f+3 almost every time. I struggled breaking them down defensively.

I suspect that Mavado is probably Ashrah's best kameo in most match ups while Sareena remains useful in certain others.

You could theoretically argue that Ashrah/Mavado could be in A tier in place of a character like General Shao. The issue is that General Shao is a more common and more successful tournament character.

What buffs would you give her?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Good point.

Dexy and Hourglass perform very well in online tournaments.

By comparison, Nitara's representation is less common while her results are less consistent.

I would argue that Dexy and Hourglass are also two of the smarter players we have, though. And two players who both stuck with their characters the entire way through, took lots of lumps, and put in the maximum amount of work to figure out every MU.

It's kind of the equivalent of PL sticking with Lao the entire way through MK9. It didn't mean that Lao was Top 3, but when you have a great player who puts that much work into a good character, they can compete with just about everyone.

 

[Eldriken]

I would argue that Dexy and Hourglass are also two of the smarter players we have, though. And two players who both stuck with their characters the entire way through, took lots of lumps, and put in the maximum amount of work to figure out every MU.

It's kind of the equivalent of PL sticking with Lao the entire way through MK9. It didn't mean that Lao was Top 3, but when you have a great player who puts that much work into a good character, they can compete with just about everyone.

Character loyalty and being on that grind can go a looooong way. We've seen that with PL (like you said), Dexy, Hourglass, etc. I can't stand Mileena, but I'm always, always impressed by Dexy's and Hourglass' performances.

 

[Trickywizard]

Character loyalty and being on that grind can go a looooong way. We've seen that with PL (like you said), Dexy, Hourglass, etc. I can't stand Mileena, but I'm always, always impressed by Dexy's and Hourglass' performances.

PL mained Lao but he tried diff chars he just couldn’t make them work…. Let’s not change history here.

 

[M2Dave]

What buffs would you give her?

I mostly use Sektor and Kung Lao now, so I am not qualified to say which buffs, if any, she needs.

However, more stance transitions from light to dark and vice versa would make sense.

I would like to see buffs for more kameos, though.

 

[OldManFGC]

I enjoyed listening to your match up video as well as watching your sets against top players.

While I agree that Sub Zero is downplayed, your appraisal of the character is highly optimistic, in my humble opinion.

I have watched players like Sikander and Train fight Kenshi players of Red Nose's caliber, and I fail to see how Sub Zero wins this match up, especially when Kenshi's kameo is Sub Zero.

If you remove pre-patch Peacemaker from the equation, the game's meta has not been known to allow zoning and/or defensive and/or hit-and-run characters to flourish at the highest level.

You did accurately indicate Kung Lao and Online Cale's success in online tournaments. There are multiple reasons why Kung Lao's hit-and-run strategy works, one of which is the ability to set up safe, sometimes even advantageous, un-reactable 50/50 mix ups after damaging combos that carry to the corner.

Sub Zero's offensive options by comparison are more limited.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply and for checking out my videos--I greatly appreciate both. Also, sorry for my delayed response.

I've definitely been called "optimistic" about Sub, lol, and I'll be the first to agree that rating Kenshi in MK 1 is quite challenging since he goes from being a relatively mid-tier character without Sento to easily the best character in the game when you're stuck in the corner against him. Due to that, I don't mind calling the MU even if someone has strong opinions to the contrary.

However, I wouldn't go beyond that because Sub can:

• Full combo punish zoning after up blocking.
• Full combo punish Kenshi's main footsie string through the gap.
• Full combo punish any random Sento call from range that Kenshi is normally safe against other characters. The same is true even if Kenshi uses Mavado trap to hide behind.
• Klone can be placed on top of Sento to delay Sento's return.
• With Sento out in neutral, besides sword throw, Kenshi has little hope of approaching through the Klone.
• In Sento sandwich, due to the speed of Sub's armor, Kenshi has to commit to an immediate armor break or wait to see if you use armor. If waiting, jump into klone will escape and hit Sento. If Kenshi attacks right away, this can create a gap to escape. And, if Sub is using Scorpion, there's even more of a mindgame about escaping with Spear Pull.
• Slide switching sides now allows Sub to quickly escape the corner on any hit. So too does jumping over Kenshi and using enhanced Klone, which will put you full screen.
• Lastly, Slide pushes Kenshi on hit, moving him away from Sento, which often lets you maul him while he has no armor options. This is especially true if you are playing a kameo that provides mix like Khameleon or Sonya. And even when Kenshi has armor, it leads to nothing, so gaps in strings/mix isn't very concerning.

In contrast, the only counterplay Kenshi has against Sub is:

• Footsie buttons outrange Sub (but those can be Slide punished).
• Sword throw going through Klone.
• Run going through Klone.
• And with Sub Kameo, like you mention, he can walk/jump through Klone, so you have have to anti-air, punish whiffed normals, or armor break gaps.

Of course, if Kenshi gets you in the corner or a sandwich + a good guess, you explode, but that's the same against any character. However, Sub unlike most characters, has many options for dealing with Kenshi, and I find that fact notable.

I'm also familiar with the matches you mention, and while I understand why you would reference them, those Subs weren't playing a kameo that let them Slide punish at any time, which is important for putting Kenshi on the back foot. Honestly, from the beginning, I think most of us were playing Sub wrong. Time will tell though, assuming the game lasts long enough. Thanks for the chat!

 

[OldManFGC]

To the Mileena chat, honestly, I think she's been an amazing character since the beginning due to her kit + Low Hat. True, Hourglass & Dexy are great players and committed to their main, but that doesn't take away from Mileena's many strengths.

The Nitara 34 mix is interesting since Sub has a similar 50/50 with Sonya. Ntara's sounds better, but the difference in frames should make it fuzzyable and thus not as scary as Mileena's hard to blockables. Also, Nitara has some bad MUs and low health, while I can't think of any bad MUs for Mileena. Scorpion maybe?

 

[Eji1700]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply and for checking out my videos--I greatly appreciate both. Also, sorry for my delayed response.

I've definitely been called "optimistic" about Sub, lol, and I'll be the first to agree that rating Kenshi in MK 1 is quite challenging since he goes from being a relatively mid-tier character without Sento to easily the best character in the game when you're stuck in the corner against him. Due to that, I don't mind calling the MU even if someone has strong opinions to the contrary.

However, I wouldn't go beyond that because Sub can:

• Full combo punish zoning after up blocking.
• Full combo punish Kenshi's main footsie string through the gap.
• Full combo punish any random Sento call from range that Kenshi is normally safe against other characters. The same is true even if Kenshi uses Mavado trap to hide behind.
• Klone can be placed on top of Sento to delay Sento's return.
• With Sento out in neutral, besides sword throw, Kenshi has little hope of approaching through the Klone.
• In Sento sandwich, due to the speed of Sub's armor, Kenshi has to commit to an immediate armor break or wait to see if you use armor. If waiting, jump into klone will escape and hit Sento. If Kenshi attacks right away, this can create a gap to escape. And, if Sub is using Scorpion, there's even more of a mindgame about escaping with Spear Pull.
• Slide switching sides now allows Sub to quickly escape the corner on any hit. So too does jumping over Kenshi and using enhanced Klone, which will put you full screen.
• Lastly, Slide pushes Kenshi on hit, moving him away from Sento, which often lets you maul him while he has no armor options. This is especially true if you are playing a kameo that provides mix like Khameleon or Sonya. And even when Kenshi has armor, it leads to nothing, so gaps in strings/mix isn't very concerning.

In contrast, the only counterplay Kenshi has against Sub is:

• Footsie buttons outrange Sub (but those can be Slide punished).
• Sword throw going through Klone.
• Run going through Klone.
• And with Sub Kameo, like you mention, he can walk/jump through Klone, so you have have to anti-air, punish whiffed normals, or armor break gaps.

Of course, if Kenshi gets you in the corner or a sandwich + a good guess, you explode, but that's the same against any character. However, Sub unlike most characters, has many options for dealing with Kenshi, and I find that fact notable.

I'm also familiar with the matches you mention, and while I understand why you would reference them, those Subs weren't playing a kameo that let them Slide punish at any time, which is important for putting Kenshi on the back foot. Honestly, from the beginning, I think most of us were playing Sub wrong. Time will tell though, assuming the game lasts long enough. Thanks for the chat!

For some reference, here's recent footage of sik using cyrax

It's interesting how much it can change your gameplan. Obviously not vs kenshi though.

 

[M2Dave]

 

[Krasiox]

I like that one with the smoke exception I think he's pretty good now

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

This has got to be one of the worst tier lists I've ever seen.

 

[Mikemetroid]

here is my current tierlist: