MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

[LEGEND]

Thanks for the reply!

I don't think Geras being negative on strings matters much since Motaro makes you plus, and with Motaro's buffed recharge time, you should always have him. When you don't, you should be zoning/charging clocks. For the Command Grab, true, it's not the best, and if that was the only mix he had it would be pretty ass. However, since he has a very good Low and an improved OH, the Command Grab being an option too is very hard for the opponent to predict due to the mental stack going on. And his Low Sand move is just a great footsie tool all around which doesn't expose him to punishment. 100% agree on the lame play being a necessity though, which isn't for a lot a people, and also agree that a fair number of the character designs in MK1, while cool., aren't the best from a gameplay perspective (I'm looking at you no pushblock against Kenshi in the corner).

For Sub, yeah, I think Sub's just had a weird history with this game, being so much better in the beta to that point that people really wrote him off early on. Also, his way of winning isn't the most intuitive, kind of like Geras, so if people only try him for a bit, it can seem like he sucks, especially since he often needs to vary his kameos heavily based on the MU (see my other post). However, due to the nature of the kameo system, he's extremely viable. Khameleon was the beginning of this being more obvious for sure, and you can see very deep runs in tournaments, including Evo, from Arrona using this pairing. But with the release of other kameos too and the improvements to klone (it's range is actually kind of insane now), Sub has a number of good options in MUs. This mainly stems from either him having a really good armored launcher (Janet, Sonya), good safe mix (Sonya), or meterless Slide combos (Scorpion, Jane), which serves as an amazing whiff punish, btw. And that's not even getting into his many setplay options (Janet, Sonya, Darrius, bit of Lao from before).

Anyway, like I said in my first post, I know the feelings on Sub can run deep for many, so not looking to convert, just sharing what I've found from maining him since release while also playing most of the rest of the cast. I should make a tier list myself here soon, or at least a Sub Zero MU chart, to put my money where my mouth is, but either way, like I said before, good chatting!

Good to hear an in-depth perspective on Sub. I might be alittle biased because I feel like Shang shits on him. (particularly Shang/Mavado with easy conversions when punishing ice clone and zoning) and I haven't seen or played against a Scoprion or Janet pairing which does actually sounds scary to zone against. A ranged threat is something I really feel he lacks, so if that slide can be used to wiff punish reliably for good damage than that is something I need to consider. But then he loses all up close threat so idk.
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Back to Geras: I don't think any of his strings cancel into Motaro without a punishable gap, could be wrong. But more importantly is how bad he is on wiff and how exposed he is when doing anything. His B4 is good but doesn't lead to much, and at least some matchups can punish out-spaced B4 use very hard. His damage output and high functional health pool are his saving graces, idk how to really evaluate that in comparison to just straight up lacking tools to play the game. He could be alittle better than I give him credit for, but I don't see any scenario where he's better than anyone in the "has everything" tier.

 

[wsj515]

Back to Geras: I don't think any of his strings cancel into Motaro without a punishable gap, could be wrong. But more importantly is how bad he is on wiff and how exposed he is when doing anything. His B4 is good but doesn't lead to much, and at least some matchups can punish out-spaced B4 use very hard. His damage output and high functional health pool are his saving graces, idk how to really evaluate that in comparison to just straight up lacking tools to play the game. He could be alittle better than I give him credit for, but I don't see any scenario where he's better than anyone in the "has everything" tier.

b1 and f24 don't have punishable gaps canceled into motaro, without committing to armor - but still I think Geras struggles, and I think the "high functioning health pool" thing is really overblown as a strength. Some character / kameo pairings don't have great combo gaps to rewind out of, and every throw / non-combo mix situation is just that much scarier since you have base 900hp.

 

[OldManFGC]

Good to hear an in-depth perspective on Sub. I might be alittle biased because I feel like Shang shits on him. (particularly Shang/Mavado with easy conversions when punishing ice clone and zoning) and I haven't seen or played against a Scoprion or Janet pairing which does actually sounds scary to zone against. A ranged threat is something I really feel he lacks, so if that slide can be used to wiff punish reliably for good damage than that is something I need to consider. But then he loses all up close threat so idk.
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Back to Geras: I don't think any of his strings cancel into Motaro without a punishable gap, could be wrong. But more importantly is how bad he is on wiff and how exposed he is when doing anything. His B4 is good but doesn't lead to much, and at least some matchups can punish out-spaced B4 use very hard. His damage output and high functional health pool are his saving graces, idk how to really evaluate that in comparison to just straight up lacking tools to play the game. He could be alittle better than I give him credit for, but I don't see any scenario where he's better than anyone in the "has everything" tier.

As a Shang + Mavado player myself , totally agree: old Shang shits on Klone when used as part of block pressure. But yeah, with Slide, Sub can beat out all Shang's zoning. Also, after the Slide combo, Sub is in a really good place with meaties, safe jumps, armor breaks, and safe 50/50s, some of which don't even have armorable gaps.

For Geras, I see somebody already answered about gaps (thanks fellow Kotal lover!), but maybe I am overestimating him. I think Motaro being able to teleport full screen now is huge, but I'll play him some more and see before making that tier list of my own. I tried Reptile recently and was like, oh, this poor character, lol, which is why I responded the way I did about him. Not that any character is actually bad in MK1, which is a nice change from previous games.