MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

[LEGEND]

This IMO makes much more sense than Kanimani's tier list. I'd maybe only swap Mileena with Ashrah.


As for fixing Nitara, removing her ability to cancel from low would kill her immediately lol.

Why is Reptile in "has everything" tier?

I fully expected both of these replies lol

Answer 1) good.

Answer 2) Hes at the bottom of "has everything".I really think he's kinda crazy, Hard to balance around always having to compete with dash and his long range B3, alot of character have to play the game by initiating with a low poke, and Reptile eats that style of play alive. Didn't want to make an awkward tier of "might be missing something but his current toolset makes up for it?".

 

[Krasiox]

Fair point, i think Scorpion and Havik do everything he does but better besides invis shenanigans.
Hes just a character in a vacuum "hes decent" but not decent enough as characters listed below him in tierlists usually win their MU ex. with yours - Lao,Tanya,Shang,Quan.

 

[LEGEND]

Fair point, i think Scorpion and Havik do everything he does but better besides invis shenanigans.
Hes just a character in a vacuum "hes decent" but not decent enough as characters listed below him in tierlists usually win their MU ex. with yours - Lao,Tanya,Shang,Quan.

I would likely agree that Shang wins more matchups than Reptile. But Shang is a weird case for many reasons and part of why I didn't want to make a tier list based on matchups.

I would say that Reptile gets to play his game more frequently than all characters below him, and his game plan is just fine. But that's just my opinion

 

[OldManFGC]

View attachment 22118

Here is my unserious, not-so-rigid tier list on how I feel about the cast. Each tier in order. All characters assumed to be using their best Kameos. This list is more grounded in what is "known" level of play and not so focused on hypothetical "highest level gameplay" or matchup spread.

I feel like nobody in the "Has Everything" tier should be buffed/nerfed in a significant way.

low effort opinions on how the rest of the cast could be rebalanced:

Spoiler: Suggested Changes

Sektor - Make all rockets splat on hit, not launch-able with Mavado. B3 could be a frame faster and easier to hit confirm.

Cyrax - Make both hits of the Buzzsaw string vacuum to the opponent on block. This makes her more consistently punishable by -7 punishes and keeps her from back dashing to safety vs others that would only be able to pressure with a mid afterwards (less brainless disjointed normals please). Teleport should leave her at point blank range and have slightly more recovery. To compensate, Give her another hit of Her B3 string and make the ender safe on block and hard knockdown on hit. (Bonus, Combos after command grab cannot link into net and combo damage scales properly, ie no 30%+ damage with Sektor or starting the vortex off of a grab.)

Johnny Cage - No more safe jump off of every combo. Finally nerf his Jump Kick, either more recovery on hit to lessen combo potential, or make it more consistent to anti-air. (He'll still be top tier)

Kenshi - Heavy re-work (Sorry Kenshi players, you picked the dumbest gameplay design ever to hitch your wagon to).

Reiko - Increased Command Grab damage (14% min on non-EX, EX could be faster start-up and/or more damage). Scale down the Command grab + Kameo combo damage (make it questionable to even use, so that other Kameos are more appealing). Make his F1 mid at least 1 frame faster so that it beats all pokes after a blocked B2 (F2?, the high that is +8 OB)

Mileena - I think she is really strong and well designed. Maybe less damage output
_

Homelander - Delete his command grab. Add another Laser or something idc.

Scorpion - Special cancelable B3 is questionable (maybe just make it safe on block), otherwise his kit is kinda perfect. He just has too great of synergy with Jax and Ferra.

Nitara - No cancel on her low.

Sindel - F1 raw is now heavily punishable on block and has less cancel advantage. D3 more negative on block.

Havik - Revert his Neck Snap change. EX dive kick no longer exists. Give him a fast mid or better hit advantage off of D4.

_
Shang - Another projectile option (Upskull or soul steal PLEASE!) or something to play footsies with that isn't just D4/D3 all the time. (F3 is doo-doo, please give me a reason to not touch that button.)

Shao - FFS give this guy a mid.

Takeda - Make B3 a couple frames faster and/or make it hit confirmable into decent damage without Kameo.

Raiden - Faster mid string or something to poke/threaten with outside of D4 range. Could just make his uncharged projectile much faster.

_
Lao - Safe hit confirmable mid, sub 14 frames. Buff divekick so that it actually beats out AA options, the thing constantly loses to jabs. No frame difference for B3(3) and B3(4), less negative on block.

Tanya - What is this character even supposed to be doing?

Geras - Full screen projectile that is + on block but slow startup. Hard to account for all his existing tools when considering changes.(Buff this guy's outfits please)

Sub Zero - Give this guy a better mid and something disjointed to poke with. B2 is mis-designed, he needs more offensive options to make it threatening to scout. Or just make it faster, safe and not combo on hit.

Quan - Let him play the game. . . Fix his pokes and give him a mid worth pressing.

Smoke - More mix, or give him the needed tools to play the base game like every other good character (disjointed footsie tool and a good mid)
_

Peacemaker - I wasn't playing when this character was broke tier. Haven't ran into a single one since his big nerf. No interest in labbing. No idea.

Appreciate you sharing this as it gives something to discuss. Agree with most of the upper portion, especially the top 5 (those seem pretty set for most folks). I'd maybe still throw Johnny in there but that's probably just because he's a tough MU for my main and I play against a really good one frequently.

As for other reactions, I'll go with some of the bigger ones:

• As another person said, I don't think Reptile has it all. He's got some really brutal MUs against the top tiers, and even if we're not looking at MUs, just tools, his armored move is awful, and his footsie string isn't great either with that big ol gap, plus his projectiles lacking range means he really can't play a zoning game. Agree that his B3 is amazing with Mavado but it nets you low damage. All in all, I think he's one of the worst right now.
• Tanya is still incredible. In fact, in some ways she's better. Sure, people that just wanted to armor for free all day and be covered by Goro are SOL but being able to 0 meter bar, 0 kameo bar combos as long as you're charged? Or speed up projectiles? Or combo off parry easier? Or parry projectiles? All that stuff is great and her buttons are still some of the best in the game. I'd put her in the tier right under the top 5-6.
• Lastly, as anyone who has seen me post before knows, I'm gonna say Sub is solid, really solid actually since he has good MUs against some of the top tiers. Most of his buffs haven't meant much but the Klone change was great and the kameos he uses getting better makes him all the better too. I think it's harder to see his placement since you do need to change kameo based on MU, but I'd say he's solid middle of the pack, if not a touch higher since he has very few losing MU.
• Oh, and I'd put Geras much higher. Grrr is a great player, but there are a lot of really strong tools Geras + Motaro give you. He just has to be more careful, like Sub in some ways, instead of being so rushdown like a lot of the top tiers.

Anyway, not expecting anyone to agree or anything, just fun to chat about. Again, thanks for making the list!

 

[Eji1700]

• Lastly, as anyone who has seen me post before knows, I'm gonna say Sub is solid, really solid actually since he has good MUs against some of the top tiers. Most of his buffs haven't meant much but the Klone change was great and the kameos he uses getting better makes him all the better too. I think it's harder to see his placement since you do need to change kameo based on MU, but I'd say he's solid middle of the pack, if not a touch higher since he has very few losing MU.

Curious which matchups you have him good in? I've seen that clone can give nitara fits, which is nice. Just curious how else he can screw with the higher tiers.

 

[LEGEND]

Appreciate you sharing this as it gives something to discuss. Agree with most of the upper portion, especially the top 5 (those seem pretty set for most folks). I'd maybe still throw Johnny in there but that's probably just because he's a tough MU for my main and I play against a really good one frequently.

As for other reactions, I'll go with some of the bigger ones:

• As another person said, I don't think Reptile has it all. He's got some really brutal MUs against the top tiers, and even if we're not looking at MUs, just tools, his armored move is awful, and his footsie string isn't great either with that big ol gap, plus his projectiles lacking range means he really can't play a zoning game. Agree that his B3 is amazing with Mavado but it nets you low damage. All in all, I think he's one of the worst right now.
• Tanya is still incredible. In fact, in some ways she's better. Sure, people that just wanted to armor for free all day and be covered by Goro are SOL but being able to 0 meter bar, 0 kameo bar combos as long as you're charged? Or speed up projectiles? Or combo off parry easier? Or parry projectiles? All that stuff is great and her buttons are still some of the best in the game. I'd put her in the tier right under the top 5-6.
• Lastly, as anyone who has seen me post before knows, I'm gonna say Sub is solid, really solid actually since he has good MUs against some of the top tiers. Most of his buffs haven't meant much but the Klone change was great and the kameos he uses getting better makes him all the better too. I think it's harder to see his placement since you do need to change kameo based on MU, but I'd say he's solid middle of the pack, if not a touch higher since he has very few losing MU.
• Oh, and I'd put Geras much higher. Grrr is a great player, but there are a lot of really strong tools Geras + Motaro give you. He just has to be more careful, like Sub in some ways, instead of being so rushdown like a lot of the top tiers.

Anyway, not expecting anyone to agree or anything, just fun to chat about. Again, thanks for making the list!

I need to see more from Tanya. I haven't had to worry against any I've played, and haven't seen anyone on a stream or tournament run.

Geras gameplay wise is unsafe on block for nearly everything and really bad on wiff, while also sticking his body out during his attacks, leaving himself exposed. His command grab is slow and high risk / low reward. His only viable means of plays is to be extremely lame and sit on a life leads from an early sandstorm or 50/50. The threat of snap is very dumb game design imo. Grrr is a top talent that would be dominating if he played nearly any other character.

Sub Zero doesn't seem to have anything going for him. I feel like Khameleon is his only viable option, and he plays as just a vehicle for that Kameo. No good wiff punish button, clone is unusable, 50/50 is rarely worth going for. He's gotta use glaive for +frames and wiff punishment, Kitana for safety and Mileena for real mix. Which in that case you can say pretty much everyone is better cause everyone can be a vehicle for Khameleon, + their own stuff. I think there is a good reason this character has had zero competitive success.

Reptile is my hot take I guess. I'd be careful to give him anything

 

[John_NX]

I personally don't see how kitana has "everything". She has useless strings, and is missing some tools in my opinion / some sauce.

 

[Eldriken]

I personally don't see how kitana has "everything". She has useless strings, and is missing some tools in my opinion / some sauce.

Don't most characters have some useless strings? And what exactly is Kitana missing? I don't think she's busted, but she doesn't seem to be lacking.

 

[M2Dave]

View attachment 22118

If you listen to what top level players say and do, Havik, Homelander, and Sindel are top 3 and in a tier of their own.

If you have not already done so, I highly recommend checking out Xombat's YouTube Channel. He explains in detail why these three characters are the best.

I rarely played Mortal Kombat 1 before Khaos Reigns, so Xombat's channel was a great place to catch up on the current meta.

I personally don't see how kitana has "everything". She has useless strings, and is missing some tools in my opinion / some sauce.

In my opinion, she is a solid footsies and zoning character.

Unfortunately, zoning is the least relevant strength in this game because the counterplay is abundant and simple.

Because Kitana has no plus strings or overhead attacks, she vehemently relies on kameos to create offense.

I keep emphasizing offense because I believe that the game revolves around this category followed by footsies, defense, damage, and zoning/anti-zoning.

This evaluative system is imperfect, but it does accurately reveal which characters are top tier and which ones are low tier.

 

[NHDR]

What makes Scorpion so good now? He really shot up in placement since the last balance patch.

 

[LEGEND]

If you listen to what top level players say and do, Havik, Homelander, and Sindel are top 3 and in a tier of their own.

That could very well be the case, but I do think that Scorpion and Nitara are above the rest of the cast as well.
-
I personally think that Scorpion is the quintessential S+ tier character, lacking nothing and has busted tools on top of it, could actually be the best character in the game. HL is cheap and easy to play and isn't even "playing MK1" 90% of the time, his kit doesn't really map onto how I think MK1 is played at a high level, could very well be a step higher than everyone else. Sindel could be argued as number 1 same as Scorp. Havik still has problems with lacking good hit advantage on his pokes and not having a fast mid, as well as no disjointed poke, footsie tool or wiff punish. Although the touch of death and constant mix-up threats could easily make up for all of that, kinda similar to evaluating Homelander, cheap no-fundamentals-required character with overpowering tools but missing what makes the rest of the cast playable.

 

[LEGEND]

What makes Scorpion so good now? He really shot up in placement since the last balance patch.

I think he was always a solid pick. He always had the chip option and disjoined footsie / wiff punish string that lead to great meterless damage. A good mid that led to meterless damage (though before F34 existed it was more risky). People like Javier weren't doing so well on the backs of a low tier character.

B3 now being cancelable is pretty huge.
F34 can now combo into 40%+ with Jax (so he has a fast, safe, hit confirmable mid) and Jax also enables free damage and meter gain off of every button thanks to the whip spin + ground pound. As well as high damage combos from armor, extra damage on regular BnBs, extra 100 health and the new Anti Kameo move from Jax. The team is insane.
Ferra also just grants him safe 50/50s off of B3 and Teleport, as well as throw combos.

 

[Juggs]

I think he was always a solid pick. He always had the chip option and disjoined footsie / wiff punish string that lead to great meterless damage. A good mid that led to meterless damage (though before F34 existed it was more risky). People like Javier weren't doing so well on the backs of a low tier character.

B3 now being cancelable is pretty huge.
F34 can now combo into 40%+ with Jax (so he has a fast, safe, hit confirmable mid) and Jax also enables free damage and meter gain off of every button thanks to the whip spin + ground pound. As well as high damage combos from armor, extra damage on regular BnBs, extra 100 health and the new Anti Kameo move from Jax. The team is insane.
Ferra also just grants him safe 50/50s off of B3 and Teleport, as well as throw combos.

Scorpion absolutely was low tier. Javier indeed was doing well on the back of a low tier character. This is no different than saying Nitara or Havik weren’t low tier. But as several people have said including myself pretty much since launch, there aren’t really many (if any) “bad” characters in this game.

 

[LEGEND]

Scorpion absolutely was low tier. Javier indeed was doing well on the back of a low tier character. This is no different than saying Nitara or Havik weren’t low tier. But as several people have said including myself pretty much since launch, there aren’t really many (if any) “bad” characters in this game.

I'll respectfully disagree. That was just the understanding at the time before people knew what was good.

He always had a functional mid, chip string, armored launcher and disjointed standing 2. I'd argue he'd be better than about a dozen characters in their current state if he never got his changes, and even without any of the Kameo changes.

 

[M2Dave]

Havik still has problems with lacking good hit advantage on his pokes and not having a fast mid, as well as no disjointed poke, footsie tool or whiff punish.

Havik is like this game's Mortal Kombat 9 Cyrax. He kills you in two combos. These so-called weaknesses honestly do not matter.

Sonic Fox has been annihilating everyone, including the top of the crop.

By the way, I stand corrected on Sektor. I now believe that she is very strong and better than Reiko.

Instant aerial projectiles have Guile's Sonic Boom recovery.

The zoning seems legit as long as cowards do not switch to the Sub Zero kameo. LOL.

 

[Juggs]

I'll respectfully disagree. That was just the understanding at the time before people knew what was good.

He always had a functional mid, chip string, armored launcher and disjointed standing 2. I'd argue he'd be better than about a dozen characters in their current state if he never got his changes, and even without any of the Kameo changes.

What “functional mid”, “chip string”, and “armored launcher” are you referring to?

The only ones that I can think of are f3, ending a block string with chain spin (db2), and ex blazing charge (bf2). But there’s no way you’d be referring to these moves, right?

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

What “functional mid”, “chip string”, and “armored launcher” are you referring to?

The only ones that I can think of are f3, ending a block string with chain spin (db2), and ex blazing charge (bf2). But there’s no way you’d be referring to these moves, right?

Db2 was a chip string since day 1 when cyrax/scorpion was a thing. It still was something when they nerfed cyrax, in the form of spin into jax ground pound and still is to this day (as seen from Javier in R1ps arena).

EX bf2 became an armored launcher into combo ever since Janet came out.

F3, afaik, didnt receive any changes by itself since day 1, save for the new f3,4 string.

You may argue these tools are not useful on their own or whatever, but they have indeed been present since at least the Janet patch.

 

[LEGEND]

What “functional mid”, “chip string”, and “armored launcher” are you referring to?

The only ones that I can think of are f3, ending a block string with chain spin (db2), and ex blazing charge (bf2). But there’s no way you’d be referring to these moves, right?

I think Scopion/Jax was probably very solid for the entire life of the game.

F3 Stagger, F3 -> Energy wave and just Raw F32 occasionally. Energy Wave also used to have a 2 second recovery so you always had access to a safe (plus with pushback) cancel.

Jax launches off of Armor

Jax + Spin off of every string and normal.

 

[LEGEND]

Havik is like this game's Mortal Kombat 9 Cyrax. He kills you in two combos. These so-called weaknesses honestly do not matter.

That could easily be true

 

[Juggs]

Db2 was a chip string since day 1 when cyrax/scorpion was a thing. It still was something when they nerfed cyrax, in the form of spin into jax ground pound and still is to this day (as seen from Javier in R1ps arena).

EX bf2 became an armored launcher into combo ever since Janet came out.

F3, afaik, didnt receive any changes by itself since day 1, save for the new f3,4 string.

You may argue these tools are not useful on their own or whatever, but they have indeed been present since at least the Janet patch.

Yeah, after Cyrax nerf, the chain spin string ender was only really “safe” if you paired Scorpion with Jax, but almost no one even used Jax back then. And those that did, they didn’t really use him that way with Scorpion. It wasn’t really until after the DLC Kameos dropped and all the Kameo changes that you saw more people using Jax with Scorpion and using his ground pound with chain spin on block. I could have sworn that Jax received some sort of change that allowed this to happen where it previously didn’t work, but again, hardly anyone used Jax for the chain spin on block iirc. People used it with Stryker bombs but it wasn’t actually “real”, people just didn’t know the MU.

And yeah that’s why I said before the DLC Kameos (Janet, Khameleon, Ferra, etc) and any subsequent changes. Regardless, labeling ex bf2 as an “armored launcher” is a bit disingenuous even with the current Kameos who can actually take advantage of it. F3,2 has a large duckable gap, and f3 by itself is stubby. If by “functional mid” you just mean a mid that functions then I guess so.

I think Scopion/Jax was probably very solid for the entire life of the game.

F3 Stagger, F3 -> Energy wave and just Raw F32 occasionally. Energy Wave also used to have a 2 second recovery so you always had access to a safe (plus with pushback) cancel.

Jax launches off of Armor

Jax + Spin off of every string and normal.

Regardless of the things I said above, you didn’t say “Scorpion & Jax”, you said “Scorpion”. This implies he has these things with all or most kameos, not just 1 (or even a few post DLC). Or even without any Kameos, as in able to do it on his own. Anyway, even if this was possible, it was only to make chain spin a threat on block. The only Kameo I can remember being able to combo off of ex bf2 was Cyrax, and the combo didn’t do much damage and was also inconsistent. But maybe I’m forgetting someone else.

 

[NHDR]

Yeah, after Cyrax nerf, the chain spin string ender was only really “safe” if you paired Scorpion with Jax, but almost no one even used Jax back then.

Kano gives you safe spin chain on block. Agreed that nobody used Jax before, that kameo is only coming up as of late. From what I'm seeing, reading, and testing out, he may be Scorpion's best kameo.

 

[LEGEND]

Yeah, after Cyrax nerf, the chain spin string ender was only really “safe” if you paired Scorpion with Jax, but almost no one even used Jax back then. And those that did, they didn’t really use him that way with Scorpion. It wasn’t really until after the DLC Kameos dropped and all the Kameo changes that you saw more people using Jax with Scorpion and using his ground pound with chain spin on block. I could have sworn that Jax received some sort of change that allowed this to happen where it previously didn’t work, but again, hardly anyone used Jax for the chain spin on block iirc. People used it with Stryker bombs but it wasn’t actually “real”, people just didn’t know the MU.

And yeah that’s why I said before the DLC Kameos (Janet, Khameleon, Ferra, etc) and any subsequent changes. Regardless, labeling ex bf2 as an “armored launcher” is a bit disingenuous even with the current Kameos who can actually take advantage of it. F3,2 has a large duckable gap, and f3 by itself is stubby. If by “functional mid” you just mean a mid that functions then I guess so.

Regardless of the things I said above, you didn’t say “Scorpion & Jax”, you said “Scorpion”. This implies he has these things with all or most kameos, not just 1 (or even a few post DLC). Or even without any Kameos, as in able to do it on his own. Anyway, even if this was possible, it was only to make chain spin a threat on block. The only Kameo I can remember being able to combo off of ex bf2 was Cyrax, and the combo didn’t do much damage and was also inconsistent. But maybe I’m forgetting someone else.

I think it should go without saying at this point that when a character is spoken about, all Kameo combinations are considered.

Also it doesn't matter that nobody was playing Jax "at the time". This whole topic is a retrospective

Is Jax comboing off of bf2 a new thing? Can't test it so I just assumed it was always that way

 

[Juggs]

Kano gives you safe spin chain on block. Agreed that nobody used Jax before, that kameo is only coming up as of late. From what I'm seeing, reading, and testing out, he may be Scorpion's best kameo.

Oh that’s true. Now that you mention it, I haven’t seen many players using Kano lately with really any character. And yeah, Scorpion + Jax is a super strong team.

I think it should go without saying at this point that when a character is spoken about, all Kameo combinations are considered.

Also it doesn't matter that nobody was playing Jax "at the time". This whole topic is a retrospective

Is Jax comboing off of bf2 a new thing? Can't test it so I just assumed it was always that way

It does matter though. You said that Javier wasn’t doing well in tournaments off the backs of a low tier character. And he wasn’t using Scorpion + Jax in tournaments. He was mainly using Stryker after the Cyrax nerfs. Unless you’re saying that Scorpion + Stryker wasn’t low tier, and to that I’d disagree. Stryker bombs making chain spin on block safe wasn’t real, meaning they didn’t actually make it safe (ppl just didn’t know the MU as I’ve said). I also don’t think there was a way to combo off ex bf2 with Stryker, at least not after you did ex bf2. And Stryker didn’t really help with Combo damage either. There were some cool unique combos you could do with Scorpion + Stryker, but didn’t provide anywhere close to more damage than other Kameos.

 

[LEGEND]

Oh that’s true. Now that you mention it, I haven’t seen many players using Kano lately with really any character. And yeah, Scorpion + Jax is a super strong team.


It does matter though. You said that Javier wasn’t doing well in tournaments off the backs of a low tier character. And he wasn’t using Scorpion + Jax in tournaments. He was mainly using Stryker after the Cyrax nerfs. Unless you’re saying that Scorpion + Stryker wasn’t low tier, and to that I’d disagree. Stryker bombs making chain spin on block safe wasn’t real, meaning they didn’t actually make it safe (ppl just didn’t know the MU as I’ve said). I also don’t think there was a way to combo off ex bf2 with Stryker, at least not after you did ex bf2. And Stryker didn’t really help with Combo damage either. There were some cool unique combos you could do with Scorpion + Stryker, but didn’t provide anywhere close to more damage than other Kameos.

Thats fair. I'm being too general and not tracking context.

For the Javier statement exactly, I still think Scorpion in the way he was using him is fine. It's a weird hypothetical, because "it wasn't real" but he wouldn't have been using it if it didn't work, and if people caught on fast enough then he probably would have moved on to something else like Jax and maybe would have been even more successful. No way to prove so w/e.

But yeah my bad on the phrasing.

 

[OldManFGC]

Curious which matchups you have him good in? I've seen that clone can give nitara fits, which is nice. Just curious how else he can screw with the higher tiers.

Sure thing, Sub vs Havik is heavily in Sub's favor even though Havik is busted now. It's mainly because Havik players have switched to Motaro instead of Sub kameo so zoning is much easier. Plus, Havik traditionally relies on his projectiles to get in, but with Janet or Scorpion kameo with Sub, you can full combo punish every projectile for 25-40% damage. Havik also can't Roll to get past your projectiles, either getting hit or freezing for a moment letting you punish. Lastly, even with his new Divekick, Havik has extremely limited aerial movement and so can't get past klone. Oh, and using Scorpion can let you dodge the Tether Snap.

Nitara, like you mention, due to the klone. If she hits you, you explode of course, similar to Havik, but Sub counters Ferra users well since with Janet or Sonya (I suggest Sonya for the extra air control), you can full combo punish all the 50/50s with gaps (not Homelander though, since he's generally not using Ferra that way).

Similar to Nitara, you can blow up Scorpion with Ferra and his B3 50/50s. You can also full combo punish Spear in the neutral which they love to use (I suggest Janet against him for both metered and meterless Slide combos). If Scorpion uses Jax, you can full combo punish most of his strings into Spin + Jax attempts, hitting Jax in the process and stopping the Slam. That all said, I wouldn't say Sub has a winning MU against Scorpion like he does Havik and Nitara, because Scorpion being able to teleport behind your defense is a pain, but more that they both have effective tools against each other, so it's a 5:5.

From the tier below that, Sub has always been good against Reiko if using Scorpion or Janet to full combo punish projectiles, and the same against Cyrax who is trying to Goop you. And once Cyrax is scared of doing that from eating near 40% from a slide, they'll have to rely on their buttons which aren't the best.

Lastly, Kenshi you can out zone / punish his zoning, and worse for him, push him away from Sento using Slide. At that point, he has no wakeup and will generally be shredded by 50/50s from Sonya. Plus, Sonya let's you full combo punish the gaps on his main footsie string and some others.

So, favorably MUs against about half of the 10 and most of the rest are 5:5s. Homelander is obviously busted, and a lot of the top tiers can put you in a blender for sure, but the ones I've listed are generally easier to keep away. And, as I'm sure you can tell, a lot depends on the kameo you play. Hope that helps!

P.S. I'm not sure about the MU against Sektor yet. On the one hand, seems similar to Sindel who can be annoying with her tiger knee projectiles, but on the other, using kameos that lock down the air like Sonya or Scorpion from behind seem effective and/or full comboing her with Slide right before she lands. I will say the fact that Sindel has moved away from Sub kameo to Tremor helps us (as long as you don't get hit, lol), and Sektor doesn't seem to use Sub kameo either, so that's good, too, but I need more matches to see for sure.

 

[OldManFGC]

I need to see more from Tanya. I haven't had to worry against any I've played, and haven't seen anyone on a stream or tournament run.

Geras gameplay wise is unsafe on block for nearly everything and really bad on wiff, while also sticking his body out during his attacks, leaving himself exposed. His command grab is slow and high risk / low reward. His only viable means of plays is to be extremely lame and sit on a life leads from an early sandstorm or 50/50. The threat of snap is very dumb game design imo. Grrr is a top talent that would be dominating if he played nearly any other character.

Sub Zero doesn't seem to have anything going for him. I feel like Khameleon is his only viable option, and he plays as just a vehicle for that Kameo. No good wiff punish button, clone is unusable, 50/50 is rarely worth going for. He's gotta use glaive for +frames and wiff punishment, Kitana for safety and Mileena for real mix. Which in that case you can say pretty much everyone is better cause everyone can be a vehicle for Khameleon, + their own stuff. I think there is a good reason this character has had zero competitive success.

Reptile is my hot take I guess. I'd be careful to give him anything

Thanks for the reply!

I don't think Geras being negative on strings matters much since Motaro makes you plus, and with Motaro's buffed recharge time, you should always have him. When you don't, you should be zoning/charging clocks. For the Command Grab, true, it's not the best, and if that was the only mix he had it would be pretty ass. However, since he has a very good Low and an improved OH, the Command Grab being an option too is very hard for the opponent to predict due to the mental stack going on. And his Low Sand move is just a great footsie tool all around which doesn't expose him to punishment. 100% agree on the lame play being a necessity though, which isn't for a lot a people, and also agree that a fair number of the character designs in MK1, while cool., aren't the best from a gameplay perspective (I'm looking at you no pushblock against Kenshi in the corner).

For Sub, yeah, I think Sub's just had a weird history with this game, being so much better in the beta to that point that people really wrote him off early on. Also, his way of winning isn't the most intuitive, kind of like Geras, so if people only try him for a bit, it can seem like he sucks, especially since he often needs to vary his kameos heavily based on the MU (see my other post). However, due to the nature of the kameo system, he's extremely viable. Khameleon was the beginning of this being more obvious for sure, and you can see very deep runs in tournaments, including Evo, from Arrona using this pairing. But with the release of other kameos too and the improvements to klone (it's range is actually kind of insane now), Sub has a number of good options in MUs. This mainly stems from either him having a really good armored launcher (Janet, Sonya), good safe mix (Sonya), or meterless Slide combos (Scorpion, Jane), which serves as an amazing whiff punish, btw. And that's not even getting into his many setplay options (Janet, Sonya, Darrius, bit of Lao from before).

Anyway, like I said in my first post, I know the feelings on Sub can run deep for many, so not looking to convert, just sharing what I've found from maining him since release while also playing most of the rest of the cast. I should make a tier list myself here soon, or at least a Sub Zero MU chart, to put my money where my mouth is, but either way, like I said before, good chatting!