New Era Podcast

[rifraf]

Funny. In these old MK9 clips Crimson posted, neutral is mostly dashblock in/out then d3, d3, grab or d3, d4, grab or d1, grab/special etc. which is exactly the same in MK1.

Maybe that's why everyone is changing their tune and start asking for MK13 to be like MKX, which I find hilarious. MK9 is all of a sudden not good enough? @M2Dave

 

[CrimsonShadow]

You also didn't address my point at all. You are VERY bad at having real discussions without going off the rails. Like reducing the complexity of playing Quan at max potential to "maybe if he lands a hit he can rune trap" is silly.

I'm doing exactly what you did for MK1. Your point was that for you, character design is linked to balance, and you're only counting the tools that perform best against the rest of the cast. And in MK9, the only thing any decent character would fear from Quan Chi is a situation where they don't have breaker, he has meter, and they get rune trapped.

That's it. The only reason Quan wasn't absolutely bottom one is because there are a few characters in MK9 whose offense literally does not work.

 

[SaltShaker]

My 2 cents.

If the community doesn't put feet to fire then who does it? SF5 was an abomination until the literal last two seasons, 4 and 5. The backlash by the community at all levels was so strong there were mass changes and SF6 came out awesome. Capcom even publicly addressed the backlash being a catalyst. But MK it's "the game is amazing, you're a hater if you criticize", the equivalent of the meme of the basement dweller protecting the million dollar company. This game doesn't even have lobbies online almost a year later and near non-existent communication for other things that were promised pre-launch and the community takes it balls deep for years since MK11. Any outrage no matter how justified is dismissed. This accomplishes nothing.

And there's a lot of evidence that the community, and casuals, did not or do not enjoy the game, because if they did, there would be massive growth because Mortal Kombat might be THEE FG and sales ALWAYS reflect that. Guilty Gear, a game that was very niche with low player counts and viewership forever is now the #3 competitive FG by a wide margin with GGST that came out in 2021, three years ago. There's no excuse, repeat, nooo excuse, for Mortal Kombat to not be solidified in that spot alongside Tekken and SF in 2024 or any year. What should be happening is full acknowledgement that something has went incredibly wrong and what are the best ways to improve it and grow the scene to the numbers that it should be getting, numbers that should be dwarfing GGST. If a game is very fun, people will play it even if they suck at the game. There aren't nearly as many people playing MK1 as there should be.

 

[rifraf]

Any outrage no matter how justified is dismissed.

Certain people feel the need to burn this game down because they just feel like it, and we're not giving them the satisfaction.

Some people just have to hold that.

 

[M2Dave]

Certain people feel the need to burn this game down because they just feel like it, and we're not giving them the satisfaction.

The game continues to burn itself every day.

The most recent controversy...

Some people just have to hold that.

What are we holding? The fact that you are posting isolated clips of a game that you never played, yet you are trying to lecture people who did? LOL.

The saddest part is that all of you forum and Twitter apologists are not making any money defending Mortal Kombat 1 and NRS.

At least certain content creators are, so while I vehemently disagree with them, I understand their incentive.

 

[SaltShaker]

Certain people feel the need to burn this game down because they just feel like it, and we're not giving them the satisfaction.

Some people just have to hold that.

I don't believe that is the case outside of very rare exceptions. Especially a site like this, or places dedicated to MK content. They might have a different reason why they want it to be different, or a different reason why they're upset at the game, but ultimately I think most people want it to be the best version it can be so they "don't" feel like that, rather than them just wanting to be angry at it. No one is here this long or having played so many past games if they didn't wish MK was still their favorite game if they are down on it currently. Like me for example, I've yelled to the moon that having no lobbies is unacceptable, I LOVE lobbies to run sets against same-rank people, but if July 30th there was a "here's a patch adding online lobbies, create your avatar and go matchmake or view matches", I'd give them immediate praise for it. If someone else argues "most characters should be as strong as Cage" and characters were massively buffed across the board those players would very likely praise it, they wouldn't say "no you should have nerfed everyone". This is the part I think gets lost in people arguing with each other.

One thing I always remember is that we are all FG players, not the "beat the story mode" players, but the "play insane hours a month for years" players. We all want to spend our time playing a FG, and sometimes the one you want to play the most doesn't coincidence with the one you think is the most fun which is when voices start elevating. This is what I think happened with GGST. If I would have said pre-GGST launch on 2021 "when a new MK game comes out 3 years from now GGST will be stomping it at Evo", you'd have bet every penny there's no way that happens, but here we are. And it's right, it should never have happened, and I don't think ANY game outsells MK games, so I would always say we need to start conversations yesterday about how to have better retention on players and how to grow the player base. Something is missing, or not right, we need to figure out what and be a Top 3 competitive FG again.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

My 2 cents.

If the community doesn't put feet to fire then who does it? SF5 was an abomination until the literal last two seasons, 4 and 5. The backlash by the community at all levels was so strong there were mass changes and SF6 came out awesome. Capcom even publicly addressed the backlash being a catalyst. But MK it's "the game is amazing, you're a hater if you criticize", the equivalent of the meme of the basement dweller protecting the million dollar company. This game doesn't even have lobbies online almost a year later and near non-existent communication for other things that were promised pre-launch and the community takes it balls deep for years since MK11. Any outrage no matter how justified is dismissed. This accomplishes nothing.

And there's a lot of evidence that the community, and casuals, did not or do not enjoy the game, because if they did, there would be massive growth because Mortal Kombat might be THEE FG and sales ALWAYS reflect that. Guilty Gear, a game that was very niche with low player counts and viewership forever is now the #3 competitive FG by a wide margin with GGST that came out in 2021, three years ago. There's no excuse, repeat, nooo excuse, for Mortal Kombat to not be solidified in that spot alongside Tekken and SF in 2024 or any year. What should be happening is full acknowledgement that something has went incredibly wrong and what are the best ways to improve it and grow the scene to the numbers that it should be getting, numbers that should be dwarfing GGST. If a game is very fun, people will play it even if they suck at the game. There aren't nearly as many people playing MK1 as there should be.

I think most people just want to have a real discussion about the games without all the facts fudged.

For example, Guilty Gear's growth actually started with Xrd, not Strive. That was 10 years ago. In 2015 they were bigger than Tekken. At EVO 2016, if you remove Pokken and Smash, Revelator had the second biggest entrants of any fighting game.

The anime community never disparaged their community because entrants were low. If Blazblue had 49 entrants, they celebrated the top players who showed up and they still promoted hype for their scene. That's how you build a scene rather than tearing it down.

Outside that core anime community, their scene now has a bunch of ex-Marvel casuals who hop from game to game, who were brought in by the idea of a Dragonball fighting game. These people have no loyalty whatsoever, which is why DBFZ had 86 entrants at CEO. Now DBFZ is entered mainly by the people who actually care about that game.

I saw someone say here that no one's ever heard of Under Night In-Birth. UNIST had 1156 entrants at EVO 2019, five years ago. This year they have 785 for UNI2.

So it'd be great to start a discussion about entrants from the actual facts, rather than from people making up whatever they want.

 

[LEGEND]

I'm doing exactly what you did for MK1. Your point was that for you, character design is linked to balance, and you're only counting the tools that perform best against the rest of the cast. And in MK9, the only thing any decent character would fear from Quan Chi is a situation where they don't have breaker, he has meter, and they get rune trapped.

That's it. The only reason Quan wasn't absolutely bottom one is because there are a few characters in MK9 whose offense literally does not work.

I'm not saying it's linked to character's balance or tournament viability (however you want to phrase it), I'm only counting tools that are worth using at all, under any normal circumstance. There is no reason you should be pressing B223 with Shang, there's no reason you should be pressing Stand 3, B12, 24 as Young etc. Don't need to list out the whole move set.

His zoning also doesn't accomplish much vs anyone who knows the MU. But sure, let's say his Ground skull was neutral on block and he's top tier because of it. That doesn't change how limited his kit is for the majority of his gameplay. Do I really need to write a high-level guide for both version of the character and how each move is used in order for you to see the contrast? MK9 Shang has Pressure and a 50/50 at close as well as functional zoning and a REQUIREMENT to know the whole cast because souls steal is an integral part of his neutral and defense. MK1 Shang's complexity only really shines after he's gotten a hit with his lackluster tools. He revolves completely around phishing for a ground skull wiff punish, playing lame and doing delayed F4 string after landing a poke. Which are all things MK9 Shang does but to a lesser extent, more risk and less reward.

Also, for Quan in MK1, there's actually nothing to fear so I guess that's a concession?

 

[SaltShaker]

I think most people just want to have a real discussion about the games without all the facts fudged.

For example, Guilty Gear's growth actually started with Xrd, not Strive. That was 10 years ago. In 2015 they were bigger than Tekken. At EVO 2016, if you remove Pokken and Smash, Revelator had the second biggest entrants of any fighting game.

The anime community never disparaged their community because entrants were low. If Blazblue had 49 entrants, they celebrated the top players who showed up and they still promoted hype for their scene. That's how you build a scene rather than tearing it down.

Outside that core anime community, their scene now has a bunch of casuals who hop from game to game, who were brought in by the idea of a Dragonball fighting game. These people have no loyalty whatsoever, which is why DBFZ had 86 entrants at CEO. Now DBFZ is entered mainly by the people who actually care about that game.

I saw someone say here that no one's ever heard of Under Night In-Birth. UNIST had 1156 entrants at EVO 2019, five years ago.

So it'd be great to start a discussion about entrants from the actual facts, rather than from people making up whatever they want.

I'll respond short and simple to this because there's a lot of missing context in your post.

This simple:

Do you think it makes sense, for GGST, released in 2021, to be stomping MK1, released September 2023, in Evo numbers, in June 2024?

Yes or no?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I'll respond short and simple to this because there's a lot of missing context in your post.

This simple:

Do you think it makes sense, for GGST, released in 2021, to be stomping MK1, released September 2023, in Evo numbers, in June 2024?

Yes or no?

Yes. Because the huge community of Capcom casuals that were looking for something else to play when MVC:I killed the Marvel scene made the jump to DBFZ when it came out. And then jumped to Strive when that came out. They are not anime enthusiats, they're just people who will play whatever the new hot thing is that's closest to that style of game.

The MK scene was never as big as that group of people. And it will never be if we insist on nonstop negativity rather than balancing criticism of the game with actual support of our competitive scene.

 

[SaltShaker]

Yes. Because the huge community of Capcom casuals that were looking for something else to play when MVC:I killed the Marvel scene made the jump to DBFZ when it game out. And then jumped to Strive when that came out. They are not anime enthusiats, they're just people who will play whatever the new hot thing is that's closest to that style of game.

The MK scene was never as big as that group of people. And it will never be if we insist on nonstop negativity rather than balancing criticism of the game with actual support of our competitive scene.

You see, this is just insane to me and why nothing will change. There's no way this inferior, 2+ year older, significantly less sales game should have way more numbers than the literal best selling game ever Mortal Kombat. MK should be crushing these small fry guys less than a year after release, but the player base isn't staying which is why they aren't.

But I'll go one step further, you mentioned 2015 and GG XRD. You know what game had more entrants than XRD? MORTAL KOMBAT X. The growth of the community should have continued to coincidence with the growth of the FG community and the growth of MK Sales but it has not. The reason why it hasn't is what should be discussed, but saying that this is not the case shouldn't be up for debate and does nothing but counteract growth. We want the same thing but are completely opposite ends on how to achieve it.

For that last part, for reference, as you know I HATED MKX and still consider it the stain of the era. Yet I bought multiple copies of the game for community members. I sent Tweedy hundreds of dollars as a gift so he could go to his first major. I bought Coach Steve an extra PlayStation to help run locals in NYC. Etc etc. Being vocal about things you don't like doesn't equal wanting the scene to fail or not supporting it. This is often misconstrued because it's easy to say "oh he's complaining just go home".

 

[CrimsonShadow]

But I'll go one step further, you mentioned 2015 and GG XRD. You know what game had more entrants than XRD? MORTAL KOMBAT X. The growth of the community should have continued to coincidence with the growth of the FG community and the growth of MK Sales but it has not. The reason why it hasn't is what should be discussed, but saying that this is not the case shouldn't be up for debate and does nothing but counteract growth. We want the same thing but are completely opposite ends on how to achieve it.

Let's do it then. If we're going to be honest about Mortal Kombat numbers, then we have to admit that at both EVO 2015 (MKX) and 2019 (MK11), at least 50% of the people who registered those years were just people from other FGC games who play MK for 3-4 months and drop it, every time (like NRS players do for KI/SF6/Strive/T8).

How do we know that? Because if you look at the numbers just 3-4 months after release of both of those games, you're not going to see nearly as many people at tournaments.

I actually went through and counted the number of people who entered EVO for just Mortal Kombat in 2019. It was 533 out of 1577 entrants. If I had the data for MKX I'd do it, and I bet the ratio would be similar. Those are the true hardcore fans. Our actual core community after 3-4 months has never been much bigger than 100-300 for events, and 500 at EVO.

So if we want to grow the core community, we need to do exactly what SF players did during SF5 (and during multiple Capcom games in the past when the meta was controversial or unbalanced). Support the scene even as people give critical feedback, because the scene is what we'll be left with after the current game is gone.

 

[rifraf]

What are we holding?

The fact people love this game and just won't agree with you that it needs to be burned just because you feel like it. Again, you're clearly not interested in joining any constructive discussions on improving the game. Fine. I do like it though. So there's that. lol

You're not being critical. You're being overly sentimental, once again.

Also, I may not have fancy tournaments results like you, but I did play MK9 a lot. I'm also not trying to tutor anyone the clips are for everyone to see and judge for themselves, I was merely pointing out the recent trend and change in optics of MKX. It seems that MK9 is starting to be a subpar game compared to MKX in the circles that hate MK1.

 

[M2Dave]

You see, this is just insane to me and why nothing will change. There's no way this inferior, 2+ year older, significantly less sales game should have way more numbers than the literal best selling game ever Mortal Kombat. MK should be crushing these small fry guys less than a year after release, but the player base isn't staying which is why they aren't.

Remember that the apologists always blame the "negativity", as though it were a virus infecting innocent bystanders who would otherwise cherish the game.

Never mind the fact that the audience for such "negativity" would be scarce if the game contained limited flaws as Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8 do.

Furthermore, the insinuation that the game would flourish in tournaments if only content creators like Mike Hollow, Nickopz, and Tom Brady were less negative is preposterous and void of evidence.

If players enjoy the game, they will sign up and travel to play the game, irrespective of what anyone says on social media.

The community is not the issue. The game is.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Never mind the fact that the audience for such "negativity" would be scarce if the game contained limited flaws as Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8 do.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1780645292964024498

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1777743277061702085

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1780647242871009659

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1775182082295087461

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1773630100057072119

Look at the likes and comments on these tweets. You have to be kidding me.

 

[rifraf]

I don't believe that is the case outside of very rare exceptions. Especially a site like this, or places dedicated to MK content. They might have a different reason why they want it to be different, or a different reason why they're upset at the game, but ultimately I think most people want it to be the best version it can be so they "don't" feel like that, rather than them just wanting to be angry at it. No one is here this long or having played so many past games if they didn't wish MK was still their favorite game if they are down on it currently. Like me for example, I've yelled to the moon that having no lobbies is unacceptable, I LOVE lobbies to run sets against same-rank people, but if July 30th there was a "here's a patch adding online lobbies, create your avatar and go matchmake or view matches", I'd give them immediate praise for it. If someone else argues "most characters should be as strong as Cage" and characters were massively buffed across the board those players would very likely praise it, they wouldn't say "no you should have nerfed everyone". This is the part I think gets lost in people arguing with each other.

One thing I always remember is that we are all FG players, not the "beat the story mode" players, but the "play insane hours a month for years" players. We all want to spend our time playing a FG, and sometimes the one you want to play the most doesn't coincidence with the one you think is the most fun which is when voices start elevating. This is what I think happened with GGST. If I would have said pre-GGST launch on 2021 "when a new MK game comes out 3 years from now GGST will be stomping it at Evo", you'd have bet every penny there's no way that happens, but here we are. And it's right, it should never have happened, and I don't think ANY game outsells MK games, so I would always say we need to start conversations yesterday about how to have better retention on players and how to grow the player base. Something is missing, or not right, we need to figure out what and be a Top 3 competitive FG again.

I can't say I fully understand the anger of some people. There are countless posts were many players, included myself, lamented NRS for the issues on release. I'm pretty sure NRS knows very well what went wrong and what didn't. Other than some very rare occasions, no one really tried to hide any of that.

There have been a few discussions recently on player retention from game to game, and the theories vary. My personal opinion is that MK games having very little legacy between them, constantly create a new pool of fans while also alienate some of the old ones.

 

[M2Dave]

I frequently complain about Tekken 8, too, yet arguably for different reasons than most Tekken 8 players, which is another discussion for another day.

The difference between Mortal Kombat and Tekken is that while Tekken players complain, they still come out and play. According to my research, Tekken 8 has virtually had more participants for a major or a regional tournament than any other fighting game since Combo Breaker. Obviously, the exception is EVO, for which Tekken 8 has the second most participants after Street Fighter 6.

I attended CEO and only signed up for Tekken 8. I do not believe that Mortal Kombat 1 is a bad game. However, the game is inconceivably boring. Some players at CEO expressed the same concern to me. They wish to remain anonymous because of perceived professionalism, sponsorships, QnA opportunities at NRS, etc.

The numbers for tournaments are very low for this reason, not because Tom Brady is talking about the state of Mortal Kombat 1 in a negative manner for the 50th time, and little Johnny, who wishes to become the next Sonic Fox, now refuses to travel.

 

[LEGEND]

My personal opinion is that MK games having very little legacy between them, constantly create a new pool of fans while also alienate some of the old ones.

This is definitely a big factor.

The lack of modes, features, casual content and an engaging ranked mode also play a major role here.

Gameplay is probably like, 15th down the list of reasons why less people are competing than expected.

 

[rifraf]

The numbers for tournaments are very low for this reason, not because Tom Brady is talking about the state of Mortal Kombat 1 in a negative manner for the 50th time.

Obviously. lol

The balance issues of the game have been discussed many many times. There are disagreements, naturally, but we all know what's sour in the current meta. And, if we know, NRS surely must be very well aware too. They have been doing some things to better the game by adding new moves, but they have been very slow and quite hesitant in changing what truly needs to be changed. The ball is in their court.

 

[SaltShaker]

Let's do it then. If we're going to be honest about Mortal Kombat numbers, then we have to admit that at both EVO 2015 (MKX) and 2019 (MK11), at least 50% of the people who registered those years were just people from other FGC games who play MK for 3-4 months and drop it, every time.

How do we know that? Because if you look at the numbers just 3-4 months after release of both of those games, you're not going to see nearly as many people at tournaments.

I actually went through and counted the number of people who entered EVO for just Mortal Kombat in 2019. It was 533 out of 1577 entrants. If I had the data for MKX I'd do it, and I bet the ratio would be similar. Those are the true hardcore fans. Our actual core community has never been very big, and we keep getting that mixed up during the first couple months of each game.

So if we want to grow the core community, we need to do exactly what SF players did during SF5 (and during multiple SF games in the past when the meta was controversial or unbalanced). Show up and support the scene even as people give critical feedback, because the scene is what we'll be left with after the current game is gone.

For the first part, then why is it not growing when the game itself is Legit THEE best seller. Going off 2015 (I googled it because you mentioned it), it shows Tekken 7 had less than 500 people that year at Evo and that was a Year 1 for T7. MKX had more than double the entrants. If this is true then why does Tekken 8 have 4500 people or whatever the number is in 2024 and MK is 600+??? That's a growth at 9x the rate. That's massive. THIS is my biggest complaint here. Why is MK, the most easily recognizable FG in the industry, not experiencing something similar? Maybe not 9x, but say even 5x by now? Let me know if these numbers are wrong, but that's what I saw. I don't understand why we should or would expect differently from MK when they should be at the same standard as Tekken and SF. They're supposed to be the "Big 3", at least in my eyes that's how I always saw it. If the numbers were so close and even leading before and now are massively lower in comparison to them this is the definitive example that something has gone wrong. I don't know what it is, but SOMETHING has gone wrong. That just shouldn't be the case.

The latter of your post. I feel like that was tried already at least by me and some others, and it didn't help anything. I feel like communication used to be much better during the MK9/Inj1/MKX era but at some point they learned the loyal fans aren't going anywhere no matter what you do and stopped treating us as great as they used to years ago. It feels like now they know you, me, TYM members are gonna always buy the game, so there's no real need to accommodate things we may want changed for competition, at least not like the INJ1/MK9/MKX era when we used to praise them for having the best communication in the industry hands down. In fact, being obnoxiously vocal is what got MKX changed in the first place for the better (though I still hated it lol it was objectively much better). And while you say we have to avoid being too negative to keep the community together, I think there's a larger area that would increase the community if some of the changes or game online updates were made. Kind of like losing 3 people, but gaining 6.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

For the first part, then why is it not growing when the game itself is Legit THEE best seller. Going off 2015 (I googled it because you mentioned it), it shows Tekken 7 had less than 500 people that year at Evo and that was a Year 1 for T7. MKX had more than double the entrants. If this is true then why does Tekken 8 have 4500 people or whatever the number is in 2024 and MK is 600+??? That's a growth at 9x the rate. That's massive. THIS is my biggest complaint here. Why is MK, the most easily recognizable FG in the industry, not experiencing something similar? Maybe not 9x, but say even 5x by now? Let me know if these numbers are wrong, but that's what I saw. I don't understand why we should or would expect differently from MK when they should be at the same standard as Tekken and SF. They're supposed to be the "Big 3", at least in my eyes that's how I always saw it. If the numbers were so close and even leading before and now are massively lower in comparison to them this is the definitive example that something has gone wrong. I don't know what it is, but SOMETHING has gone wrong. That just shouldn't be the case.

So I think again, you have to at least understand the reasons for the base numbers.

Tekken 7 only had 500 people at EVO in 2015 because the game wasn't out on console yet. That means most people couldn't play it, and those were basically the "preview" numbers for the game.

The actual first year for T7 as a fully-released game was 2017. That year Tekken had 1278 entrants because everyone actually had the game at home.

As to the other part of the question, that's exactly what I'm talking about. MK has a huge casual fanbase, but the core community spends a lot more time bashing them than reaching out to them. The Melee scene fought through all the years where both the FGC and Nintendo shunned them, put together "The Smash Bros." docuemntary to introduce their best players to the world. The SF scene showed up even when SF5 was released in an massively incomplete state and everyone was angry at Capcom. Content creators like Sajam still did tournament match breakdowns when SF5 was at its worst.

The NRS community is both young and spoiled. We are used to riding the coattails of other games, and haven't yet learned how to build our own scene through tough times. We were doing a better job before MKX brought automatic promotion through ESL, at which point everyone felt entitled to the money and attention. People like Mr. Aquaman actually worked to build MK-only events, but that only works if your community supports it. We need to stop waiting for the "jesus" game and learn to support even through criticism like everyone else.

 

[SaltShaker]

Remember that the apologists always blame the "negativity", as though it were a virus infecting innocent bystanders who would otherwise cherish the game.

Never mind the fact that the audience for such "negativity" would be scarce if the game contained limited flaws as Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8 do.

Furthermore, the insinuation that the game would flourish in tournaments if only content creators like Mike Hollow, Nickopz, and Tom Brady were less negative is preposterous and void of evidence.

If players enjoy the game, they will sign up and travel to play the game, irrespective of what anyone says on social media.

The community is not the issue. The game is.

Mike Hollow, that's the guy I was trying to think of earlier. Say this Mike guy. I don't know him, but I have heard he's like the ultimate hater. No one is gonna buy into that who currently enjoys the game, and he's not gonna "flip anyone" to his side. People who already dislike the game is his audience. I don't think it has much of an impact at all to the actual scene. Someone could start the ultimate SF6 hate campaign right now, it won't make people stop playing it. My expectation is that MK is no different than SF or Tekken. It's not some Unist or GranBlue game, it's MORTAL KOMBAT. My expectation is greatness, 3000 at Evo minimum is what I would think we'd be at by now, not some justification why the numbers are lower than expected and some game that I don't even know has more participation.

I can't say I fully understand the anger of some people. There are countless posts were many players, included myself, lamented NRS for the issues on release. I'm pretty sure NRS knows very well what went wrong and what didn't. Other than some very rare occasions, no one really tried to hide any of that.

There have been a few discussions recently on player retention from game to game, and the theories vary. My personal opinion is that MK games having very little legacy between them, constantly create a new pool of fans while also alienate some of the old ones.

Do they? Do they know what went wrong and what went right? That's a legitimate question. Some of the most basic information we don't get sometimes, or end up hearing days, even weeks later after people have been talking online about a topic. If even just the communication was better I think it would help a lot of strife, but a lot of times we deal with ghosting or radio silence (MK11 #NeverForget) that ends up amplifying people rather than calming them. If we had the pre-MK11 communication back maybe certain things would reach the boiling points they do, that much I think is certain, but now it feels like the 180 where no one is really allowed to criticize that is a content person or player has created our new current environment.

That's the actual topic we should be discussing. It's not debatable, but the reasons are. I'm a strong believer that a few things were dumb:

1. Flipping between MK and Inj for a decade was death. I can write a book on this. Easy #1 for me.
2. No legacy is death. It's creates a situation where the new game is always under microscope to the old one because it's revamped and no one will go back to old games. You also can't build on the last game and perfect things because you're starting from scratch again and having to rectify the new issues even after fixing the old ones.
3. Best out of all FGs communication died with MK11 for reasons I still don't understand. Better communication can always address issues before they become bigger or longer. Lesser communication causes things to fester.
4. The "power level" argument is valid. Example , you know what was godlike and super duper fun? Homelander pre-patch (no infinite of course). You know what is a lot less fun? Forcing meter into the great BnBs he had while removing some pressure and fitting him "in" so he has to be optimal the same way everyone else is. If he was "too strong" in that version others should have been brought up to compensate, not bringing him down to their level. If the characters were strong it would also make the kameos more of a compliment to the character which I'd argue and upgrade.
5. Lack of concentrated effort to retain early players. It would take me too long to write on this one as well, but there's significantly less effort to keep potential competitive players who bought MK1 than there should have been, making it easier for them to walk and forget about the game.

Etc

Many things can be discussed, but it's probably theee topic right now because this is Mortal Kombat, the ultimate FG. We should be outpacing the field. Maybe even smacking the field. Not this.

 

[SaltShaker]

So I think again, you have to at least be accurate about the reasons for the base numbers.

Tekken 7 only had 500 people at EVO in 2015 because the game wasn't out on console yet. That means most people couldn't play it, and those were basically the "preview" numbers for the game.

The actual first year for T7 as a fully-released game was 2017. That year Tekken had 1278 entrants because everyone actually had the game at home.

As to the other part of the question, that's exactly what I'm talking about. MK has a huge casual fanbase, but the core community spends a lot more time bashing them than reaching out to them. The Melee scene fought through all the years where both the FGC and Nintendo shunned them, put together "The Smash Bros." docuemntary to introduce their best players to the world. The SF scene showed up even when SF5 was released in an massively incomplete state and everyone was angry at Capcom. Content creators like Sajam still did tournament match breakdowns when SF5 was at its worst.

The NRS community is both young and spoiled. We are used to riding the coattails of other games, and haven't yet learned how to build our own scene through tough times. We were doing a better job before MKX brought automatic promotion through ESL, at which point everyone felt entitled to the money and attention. People like Mr. Aquaman actually worked to build MK-only events, but that only works if your community supports it. We need to stop waiting for the "jesus" game and learn to build even through criticism like everyone else.

That's why I asked, I wasn't sure. Okay so almost 1300 people, and now like 4500 or 4600 people. That's still a huge, hugeee chunk of an increase. Good for them, but this is no different than what I would expect for MK. THIS is the standard I'd have set for them by the time we got to MK1 in 2024. Or maybe a tiny bit less but close. To be so far away from this type of number is a huge issue to me that I think we all should be trying to do something. Whether it's trying to get things in the game changed, trying to get more people influential to push it, something, anything should be attempted rather than being like "nah this is actually cool".

Yea I agree with some of that. We don't really have people pushing those types of ideas which doesn't help. I'm the first to say I wouldn't have shown up t all for SF5 so they did their part and I remember the Smash. I do feel like people did this during MKX though, but just haven't as much in MK1. I'm still not too certain why but agree with a lot here.

Somewhat. Spoiled because we had a GOAT era with GOAT games lol nothing wrong with that. Injustice is my favorite game but I remember all y'all hating on it because it wasn't MK9 like it was yesterday. But even then there was more engagement from new players than OGs. I went to Cossner's house during peak INJ1 and remember Tom and REO were in the back playing MK9 for what had to be 4 hours straight on the monitor and had no interest in playing Inj and barely talked to anyone there LOL. Using this as an example because over time I think our game has had its veterans not enjoy the newer game. When MKX came, now there's TWO groups (MK9/Inj) that has some people that don't wanna play the new game. Inj2 comes, etc etc. By MK1, a lot of the players outright dislike it, or aged out and don't play often, but we aren't replacing them with a higher amount of new players that are here for MK1. For us, the game needs to be that much better if there isn't going to be free legacy retention because there's no loyalty from an older player base to stick around. When you start adding up the multiple reasons why players might tank then it doesn't really surprise why we're not in the thousands like we should be. Even at the most basic level, MK1 is way better than MK11, we should be stomping, but if we aren't we gotta turn it up more.

 

[ImpostorOak]

The people defending MK1 aren't even good players. They don't understand why MK used to be and is considered "not a real fg." They don't play other games. Yall are really arguing with walls.

Make all the points you want, they're just gonna say "nuh uh!"

I've been coming here to check in on the discourse, and nothing is changing. MK1 is pretty sad. And before someone replies, I call my Kameo so this post is plus on block and a full combo on hit, gg nerds

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Somewhat. Spoiled because we had a GOAT era with GOAT games lol nothing wrong with that. Injustice is my favorite game but I remember all y'all hating on it because it wasn't MK9 like it was yesterday. But even then there was more engagement from new players than OGs. I went to Cossner's house during peak INJ1 and remember Tom and REO were in the back playing MK9 for what had to be 4 hours straight on the monitor and had no interest in playing Inj and barely talked to anyone there LOL. Using this as an example because over time I think our game has had its veterans not enjoy the newer game. When MKX came, now there's TWO groups (MK9/Inj) that has some people that don't wanna play the new game. Inj2 comes, etc etc. By MK1, a lot of the players outright dislike it, or aged out and don't play often, but we aren't replacing them with a higher amount of new players that are here for MK1. For us, the game needs to be that much better if there isn't going to be free legacy retention because there's no loyalty from an older player base to stick around. When you start adding up the multiple reasons why players might tank then it doesn't really surprise why we're not in the thousands like we should be. Even at the most basic level, MK1 is way better than MK11, we should be stomping, but if we aren't we gotta turn it up more.

I'm with you on Injustice.

I don't usually talk about this stuff, but: I paid for KDZ's registration and game fee after EMP screwed him for a major that he ultimately won. Why? Because I wanted to see good competition there. I sent money to one of our scene's best-known players so that they could go to SCR. And when I noticed that WNF and NLBC were putting on great tournaments every week that weren't being talked about, I started writing articles to help being attention to the weeklies. I even sent bread to NLBC for the pot to try to encourage people to come out.

That's what you do to help to build a scene. If our attitude was "this game isn't as big as SF, so the tournaments can't be any good" the Injustice scene would have died after 3 months.

Every game has the "new game different" troubles. When SF4 came out, a number of notable 3rd Strike players refused to play it. A bunch of people called it scrubby and criticized everything from the comeback mechanics, to option selects. The game was broken, and that's when the whole "pick a top tier" meme started. We forget all this in hindsight. Likewise with T7 > T8 there's been heavy criticism, and top players who just aren't feeling the new game. Growing pains are normal.

When all the MKX money came in (riding the Injustice hype), a lot of people forgot that scenes need to be built from the ground up. Criticising is fine, but you don't need to go overboard to the point that you are only putting out negative content, not promoting any of your events, and literally trying to discourage people from showing up. If the SF5 community didn't make excuses for SF5, we have none for MK1.