Are The Top Tiers Too Strong?

[Juggs]

Game has been out for 6 months now, so I think it has been enough time to discuss the strength of the top tiers and the issues they pose.

My main issue with some of the top tiers in this game is how good their setplay is on top of everything else that they have going for them. If it was just strong setplay, that’d be one thing, but a lot of the stronger characters also have:
-good meterless damage
-good damage overall
-30%+ damaging combos that also lead to a HTB setup which is essentially loopable (aka if they keep guessing wrong you keep putting them back into the same guessing situation after already having taken 30%+ of their health). And even if you guess right, very rarely is there any type of reward other than just not being stuck in the vortex as most of these setups are safe or can be made to be safe
-fuck neutral tools (full screen or otherwise) that do decent burst damage but also either are safe, cause pushback, or can be made to be safe with Kameos
-can pressure you safely and if they throw out a string or special cancel into something that is normally punishable, can just make it not only safe with their Kameo, but also plus
-just about all of them have good projectile zoning tools other than Cage. But he makes up for it with his full screen super quick fck neutral tool that he can EX for armor or that he can make safe via Kameo
-constant pressure into a ton of chip damage that once again is either safe or can be made safe

And the list goes on and on. All these things make these characters extremely annoying and boring to play against, and definitely boring to watch. And some of these things of course aren’t exclusive to the top tiers, it’s just that the top tiers for the most part have ALL of these things, while the lower tier characters will have 1, maybe 2 of these aspects.

I’ve never been a player that advocates for nerfs. In fact, one of my things is constantly advocating for the exact opposite. I’ve always been a firm believer in buffing far more often than you nerf. And when you do nerf, you do slight nerfs. However, I do think a lot of the top tier characters in this game are so strong, maybe even too strong. Especially in comparison to the rest of the cast. This does NOT mean that the lower tiered characters are “bad”, because I still believe there isn’t any bad characters in this game, especially with the Kameo mechanic. But not being bad is a lot different from possibly being too good.

The problem is I’m not sure what the solution would be. Other than just buffing all the low to mid tier characters to be just as broken, lol. Because it’s hard to “fix” a lot of these issues when you also have to take the Kameos into consideration. And nerfing the Kameos inevitably nerfs the lower tiered characters as well, so that doesn’t change much.

So I’m curious how all of y’all feel about it. Maybe y’all don’t even agree that the top tiers are super strong. But like I said, I’m curious what everyone’s take on this is.

 

[wsj515]

I’d like to see kameos be a little more niche / less generally powerful, and more characters buffed up to the completeness of the top tiers, which I don’t think are too strong (just very strong) without the busted kameos.

As time passes though I think I’m also just not a huge fan of assist fighters, this is my first one and from what I can tell it’s pretty normal for everyone to just use the same busted assist. I hate that Lao just gives everyone absurdly easy to access htbs, and stryker with safety / plus frames, but I guess that’s just what assist fighters are like.

 

[rifraf]

I’ve never been a player that advocates for nerfs. In fact, one of my things is constantly advocating for the exact opposite. I’ve always been a firm believer in buffing far more often than you nerf. And when you do nerf, you do slight nerfs.

That's my attitude towards this game as well. However, some moves/characters cannot be fixed just by tuning frames imo. Some occasions require some kind of rework. I understand this is probably a hot take for fighting games since the approach has always been once the game's out, it's more or less done. Maybe the developers will tune some numbers here and there but reworking moves and characters is completely out of the question.

It's 2024, and MK1 launched as a live-service game. That means the thing I described above is antiquated. As a modern, aggressively monetised game, they need to adhere in those standards and the live product needs to be as competitive as possible. The best example for this type of model I can think of is League of Legends with an ever expanding roster, balance and reworks across the board.

To bring this all to a closure, my point is balance should be a constant thing without the restrictions of the past. We are not responsible for balancing the game, NRS is. Not every character NEEDS to be top tier, but should be fun to play, and be able to execute their unique playstyle successfully while allowing for player creativity.

TL;DR An example would be Raiden's stormcell. This move doesn't belong in Raiden because Raiden has so much utility and power elsewhere in his kit. Nerfs, buffs, reworks should all happen simultaneously across the roster imo.

 

[kabelfritz]

the one thing i dont understand is why nobody plays frost. shes a really good kameo.

 

[Careerpancakes]

What I'm getting from this list is that the top tiers already have good tools and damage, so they can choose a kameo that gives them safety without losing out on much. For example, Raiden has the tools to get in and do good damage on his own, so he can pick an ambush assist to enable his stormcell shenanigans or make his fuck neutrals safe. On the other hand, characters like Sub-Zero, Li-Mei, and Reiko are reliant on combo extender kameos to be a threat and so are forced to play neutral and footsies like plebians.

I could make a post on its own about how most kameos fit into the safe pressure vs combo extender paradigm. For now, I think that buffing the utility moves would help both kameos and fighters find their place. Back to Sub-zero, he's the only one who can consistently force people to sit in Sareena's meter drain; if that meter drain was buffed more, Sub-zero would have the unique game plan of always taking your meter so that you can never break, extend, or even armor through clone or his many gaps. That way, he doesn't end up being another character that just pushes whatever buttons into kameo for flowchart offense.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

I would say that this is probably the most balanced NRS MK so far. There is no Tanya/Alien, no Sonya/Johnny/Kabal/Cyrax and no Cetrion. Yes, Kenshi, Sindel and Raiden can be frustrant to play against, and take almost no effort to enforce their (very effective) tactics, but they IMO still don't feel UNBEATABLE if I'm using a bottom tier. That said, I would nerf the top 6 with minor frame adjustments, and buff the bottoms and mids by giving them new strings/normals and making some strings be special cancellable.

 

[Wigy]

I think kameos that provide/delete zoning have been catastrophic for balance.
li mei is an example because shes clearly balanced around her zoning but the existence of a kameo just deletes that from her kit. Then she has to approach with no tools to do so.

I also have a problem with some characters who arent even broken but holy fuck do they have one tool that ultra carries brainlessly, reikos shurikens and smokes invis etc.

 

[Fatality o]

The fuck neutral meta we are in right now is killing the fun of the game for me unless I’m playing friends in privates. I was guilty of playing it last season to climb to elder god (khameleon) but while playing it I was bored. Trying to play an honest footies character is borderline masochism is the meta we are in.

I do agree I believe kenshi and raiden are the only 2 who need a nerf. And they don’t need to be gutted they just need to be more fair imo.

Kenshi shouldn’t get one touch into 10+ seconds of almost inescapable pressure/chip where he has true mixups and 45-50% dmg combos.

Raiden does not need free storm cell off any poke or any blockstring into chip->mixup->35-40% or loop back into storm cell on block. His kit is already imo #1 in the game, with the storm cell nonsense he just becomes obnoxious and extremely unfun to play against.

I also think peacemakers anti zoning move is ridiculous when he has all that safe zoning. Another seriously unfun thing to play against.

 

[Son ov Timett]

Introduction of defensive mechanics may help some of the bork. The only reason I use Sub Zero as a Kameo is to make the game as neutral as possible while mitigating the bullshit. Wish there were more defensive oriented kameos or mechanics. Why not bring push block to 2-3 Kameo options?

Additional strings for a large swath of the cast would also help things out. As a Kitana main, I legit have no viable overhead option that doesn't result in princessal violation. Give me an overhead splat option and I may be interested in actually playing the game. As of now it's the same as shit. Either zone, throw out some fan bombs, or do up close offense that is no deeper than poke fishing. Derp derp you poked here's my b2 of death

@Fatality o The only footsie heavy mu I've played is Kitana vs Mileena. This is because Mileena can blow her zoning to bits. It's a pretty even ass mu when zoning is limited. Coincidentally ITS THE MOST FUN IVE HAD IN THE GAME. Fooq off neutral bullshit legit sucks the life out of the game. Sorry, fighting Omniderp is not fun, it's just laborious.

Regarding Storm Cell, this should cost far more resources than a Kameo bar. Yes we're treading in the same vein as the Cyrax nerf. Nevertheless, powerful moves should require resources, not be the entire character's game plan. I would like to see Raiden completely reworked in the vein of MKX. Give this bastard lightning cancel pressure and make it execution heavy.

 

[Mikemetroid]

Fuck neutral tools = Ambushes, Kung Lao Low Hat. (The real symptoms)

Microducking = avoiding normals solely because of hit properties, despite literally clipping through people. Also aids

Lower tiers feel like they were simply designed with an outdated way of thinking. They have to rework them lower tiers like Reptile or Scorpion imo

 

[rifraf]

Kung Lao Low Hat.

As time passes, I'm faced with the reality that I wholeheartedly hate Kung Lao's abilities. I hate playing against low hat all the damn time and I hate all the possibilities it creates.

 

[ReD WolF]

The disparity between the top and bottom characters in this game is much closer than in previous NRS titles. Perhaps some slight buffs to the lower tier characters and leave the top alone for the most part. If NRS didn't safeguard certain characters/archetypes, the game would be in a better place imo. As much as I hate fighting Raiden/Kano I don't think he should be touched other than perhaps making kano ball neutral or slightly negative on block after a stormcell.

 

[Fatality o]

What if raidens storm cell could be interrupted with a standing 1 and didn’t jail off anything he does? Is that a decent nerf? Or leave a gap somewhere to armor like baraka barrage?
I think that would be fair and wouldn’t ruin him, you still have to take a risk and guess when he’s gonna storm cell, but then he eats a full combo punish if you guess right.

And fuck neutral isn’t just ambushes it’s also: hold this safe-anywhere on the screen thing I can use that can convert to full combo and not have to play footsies at all.

 

[Arqwart]

The disparity between the top and bottom characters in this game is much closer than in previous NRS titles. Perhaps some slight buffs to the lower tier characters and leave the top alone for the most part. If NRS didn't safeguard certain characters/archetypes, the game would be in a better place imo. As much as I hate fighting Raiden/Kano I don't think he should be touched other than perhaps making kano ball neutral or slightly negative on block after a stormcell.

This is exactly where my mind is at. The top tiers feel less "above" the lower tiers and instead more "whole" than the lower tiers. Someone like Scorpion, Sub, Tanya, or Nitara absolutely have some dirty shit and the ability to play neutral, get damage, go toe to toe with the rest of the cast, pull off gross shenanigans, etc. The issue to me is that these sorts of characters require a good bit more effort to pull off what they need to and are notably more dependent on their kameo selection to even out matchups and/or shore up weaknesses in their kits.

Meanwhile, someone like Raiden can just... play the game. Any kameo works. Any gameplay style works. Damage is great on his own. He's safe as hell. He's great at neutral. I'd argue base kit Raiden with no kameo could hold his own against other characters (with a kameo) pretty damn well. There's no real gaps in his kit requiring specific kameos to help or specific tactics to rely on solely. I dont think Raiden is anything NEAR the realm of the likes of MK9 Kabal / Cyrax or Kobu Jutsu Tanya / Acidic Alien, especially after the damage normalization.

 

[Juggs]

I would say that this is probably the most balanced NRS MK so far. There is no Tanya/Alien, no Sonya/Johnny/Kabal/Cyrax and no Cetrion. Yes, Kenshi, Sindel and Raiden can be frustrant to play against, and take almost no effort to enforce their (very effective) tactics, but they IMO still don't feel UNBEATABLE if I'm using a bottom tier. That said, I would nerf the top 6 with minor frame adjustments, and buff the bottoms and mids by giving them new strings/normals and making some strings be special cancellable.

I definitely don’t think there’s any characters that are as broken as MKX Alien/Tanya, MK9 Kabal, Cyrax, Injustice MMH, Batgirl, etc. And they aren’t “unbeatable”. My issue is how hard you have to work if you’re not using these characters, and how NOT hard you have to work when you do. And this isn’t even talking about using low tiers vs these top tiers, that makes it that much harder. If you’re not using a top tier vs a top tier, you have to play at such a high efficacy level throughout the entire match. Meanwhile the top tiers can throw just about whatever they want out and not get punished for it. Yes, low tiers CAN do this with the aid of Kameos, but the risk/reward is completely imbalanced in favor of the top tiers.

But the broader point is you have to play their game and it just makes the matches incredibly sweaty but not in the good way that sweaty matches typically are. Sweaty as in you have to work so hard and not blink even if you know EXACTLY what the opponent is about to do. I feel like there’s a lack of counterplay to a lot of what the top tiers do unless you’re also using a top tier. But even when you’re using a top tier vs a top tier, it’s still extremely tedious to play.

Maybe I just can’t find the right words or know how to properly explain it. The best way I can describe it in one word is “boring”, but that just sounds like something someone salty would say for not being good at the game or something. But idk how else to describe the meta. And this is coming from someone who played high level UMK3 for over a decade with people constantly glitch jabbing, lol (which is also boring tbf).

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

I definitely don’t think there’s any characters that are as broken as MKX Alien/Tanya, MK9 Kabal, Cyrax, Injustice MMH, Batgirl, etc. And they aren’t “unbeatable”. My issue is how hard you have to work if you’re not using these characters, and how NOT hard you have to work when you do. And this isn’t even talking about using low tiers vs these top tiers, that makes it that much harder. If you’re not using a top tier vs a top tier, you have to play at such a high efficacy level throughout the entire match. Meanwhile the top tiers can throw just about whatever they want out and not get punished for it. Yes, low tiers CAN do this with the aid of Kameos, but the risk/reward is completely imbalanced in favor of the top tiers.

But the broader point is you have to play their game and it just makes the matches incredibly sweaty but not in the good way that sweaty matches typically are. Sweaty as in you have to work so hard and not blink even if you know EXACTLY what the opponent is about to do. I feel like there’s a lack of counterplay to a lot of what the top tiers do unless you’re also using a top tier. But even when you’re using a top tier vs a top tier, it’s still extremely tedious to play.

Maybe I just can’t find the right words or know how to properly explain it. The best way I can describe it in one word is “boring”, but that just sounds like something someone salty would say for not being good at the game or something. But idk how else to describe the meta. And this is coming from someone who played high level UMK3 for over a decade with people constantly glitch jabbing, lol (which is also boring tbf).

I understand the sentiment. Also

Sweaty as in you have to work so hard and not blink even if you know EXACTLY what the opponent is about to do.

Exactly what I feel when playing Mileena vs Kenshi. The moment the Spirit Ancestor is out, I KNOW they will do spirit 2 hits into kenshi low starter - I stop blocking so I can input her armored move and either I get hit by the low before it even comes out (as it is a super tight link) OR kenshi will hit the armor and then take a small step forward in hit low - mid animation and then not get hit by the teleport and I am back at square one, only with one less bar to work with. This is for guessing right in that scenario.

Which is exactly, again, why I think the top tiers DO need nerfs. There are some shits that are just stupid. Same with poke into stormcell into kano for FULL safety, almost half a bar of meter and chip. And why I think the lower tiers need buffs. We are basically in agreement here.

 

[Apock]

the one thing i dont understand is why nobody plays frost. shes a really good kameo.

Why no one was playing Stryker before Cyrax nerf?

 

[Mikemetroid]

Why no one was playing Stryker before Cyrax nerf?

I was so don't say no one lol I was literally the first Cage Stryker AT Pro Komp for ECT. The reason why meta is stagnant is because the top players only play within their "circle" so they play a different meta than the rest of us.

 

[xRantex]

I don't agree with Raiden nerfs mostly because I haven't ran into that many Raidens online.

I think the characters that need nerfs are the characters everyone flock to Smoke, Johnny cage etc. Storm cell is safeish when a Kameo is called out but if I have no Kameo option I get blown up for throwing out storm cell

Please no, don't make him like mkx wth.

 

[xRantex]

People just cry about other characters but down play the character they use. Hopefully they don't change Raiden, they already nerfed his damage.

 

[wsj515]

People just cry about other characters but down play the character they use. Hopefully they don't change Raiden, they already nerfed his damage.

If anyone needs a nerf, its certainly Raiden. He's both top teir / potential top 1, and has a gameplan / tools that are pretty unhealthy for the game. You can't seriously in one breath say Raiden shouldn't be nerfed, then say Smoke should be nerfed.

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

I do think a lot of the top tier characters in this game are so strong, maybe even too strong.

What other fighting games are you playing? Personally, when I started playing other games and came back to MK, everything feels weak by comparison. It think it would be difficult to bring in guest characters from other fighters because their base moveset might break the game. If the top tiers in MK feel weak compared to low tier characters in other games, is the problem that they're too strong, or the majority of the cast is way too weak? I'm inclined to believe the later.

 

[Wigy]

If anyone needs a nerf, its certainly Raiden. He's both top teir / potential top 1, and has a gameplan / tools that are pretty unhealthy for the game. You can't seriously in one breath say Raiden shouldn't be nerfed, then say Smoke should be nerfed.

Fuck pokes into jailing launching special that does tonnes of chip and can be made plus

Fuck armoured teleport jump in punch that makes you invisible for what feels like 20 minutes on a character with mix and cancels


(both can get nerfed)

 

[haketh]

Outside of how overbearing StormcellxAmbush is as a strat, none of the Top tiers feel so overbearing? Maybe some damage tweaks here for some characters, tweak Stryker nades so it's a bit harder to make some things plus, buff a couple weaker Kameos, etc. But things feel pretty compressed as is, would like to some some buffs towards zoning but that's a old and tired topic.

 

[Jynks]

Are The Top Tiers Too Strong?

No they are not.. not at all...

all you have to do is watch competitive play to see massive diversity in the top 24s to Top 8s. MK1 is one of the most "balanced", as in how each character is viable, in MK history.

Tiers are just not a thing as much in fighting games as they used to be. Not with the patching and and so much effort into balancing. Every time you see one of those ridiculous tier lists, the next day you see someone win a major with a bottom tier.

I mean, that staked Brazillion thing was a few days ago was a Baraka (Stryker) vs Scorp (Kamerlon) final and the top 64 only just missed out having the ENTIRE roster represented.

This perceived "top tier" stuff is in peoples heads... the actual events tell the true story.