The State of Zoning and Overall Strategy in Mortal Kombat 1

[SixPathsOfHate]

Only one of those "needs" (i.e., pressure on wakeup) is currently relevant to the game's meta.

I can easily think of six gameplay aspects that are significantly more important than zoning in this game.

• high damage output with or without meter
• chip damage and meter building
• safe, armored launcher
• ability to combo from back throws
• set play, especially that breaks armor
• quality of pokes, strings, and jumping attacks

The ideal example at this moment is Sonic Fox's Rain. As a base character, Rain is clearly below average, but with Cyrax, he checks lots of the boxes outlined above. Rain has damaging meter-less combos (i.e., about 33%). Obviously, he has chip damage and meter building thanks to the kopter chopper. Enhanced close geyser is an armored launcher that does around 20% of damage. He can combo from a back throw and has set play in the corner, including an apparently unavoidable throw loop that Sonic Fox discovered a couple of days ago.

Ironically, Rain's zoning, albeit advertised as a "premier" on stream, is the character's least effective gameplay element and strategy. There are characters like Liu Kang, Reiko, and Shang Tsung who have superior projectiles, but ironically yet again, Rain may end up being better than them. The reason being is that he has access to options that are relevant to the game's current meta, of which zoning is not one.

There is no reason to discuss Baraka and Cage, arguably the two best characters in the game, and how they play and win, which ought to be self-explanatory. In a fighting game like Mortal Kombat 9, they would have to close the gap and earn their way in. In this game, they get in for free because the zoning is weak.



No.

You cannot dash through low hat either. However, I honestly could not care less.

The players who try to zone and lame me out on Kombat League only for me to hit them with a 45% combo and then zone and lame them out in return make me laugh.



I still have PTSD because of shake, and I also believe that you Smoke fools are downplaying. The character is good.

I feel like the number one mistake that players make in this game is picking non-optimized or worthless kameos.

I mean I agree but dont expect anything major to change about it.

But, going off of one of Sonic's matches where he was facing Reiko as Rain he couldnt do anything and even suggested swapping to subzero because he just couldnt deal with the zoning. Zoning when too strong completely dominates the game so I understand the fear of making it as important as the other points you've listed.

What do you propose they do to buff zoners?

They could increase the damage and pushback on hit for zoner's projectiles. Make getting hit more punishing. Especially with how most projectiles are high. Not enough projectiles that knock down. Baraka's projectile does as much damage as Shang's double skull while being just as fast.

I will say that as a zoner are at a life deficit in a zoner v non-zoner matchup you should be able to come back through zoning despite the non-zoner having a projectile.

 

[Juggs]

I think when a lot of people hear/read “zoning”, they immediately think of projectile spam. Which that of course IS a type of zoning, but it isn’t the only type. “Zoning” is controlling a certain space(s) on the screen. You can be a great zoner and not even have a projectile or just have 1 (Sim comes to mind). Basically to zone is to be able to stay a certain distance away from your opponent and preventing them from advancing on you. So you technically can “zone” a character out like Gief by standing just outside of his SPD range as long as you have buttons that can cover that distance between you and Gief.

It kinda reminds me of how when people hear the term “camping” in shooters, they immediately only think of a player standing/laying down in one spot and not moving at all. Which of course IS a type of camping. But it’s far more effective to cover (or zone) a specific area on the map and be moving around in this area and “holding it down” compared to just laying down ADS’ing at one spot in front of you.

I know most people already know all of this, but just wanted to throw it out there for those that may not.
¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[M2Dave]

2009 is far away but Freddy Smoke felt fair to me, some would switch to the rushdown and dominate . You would go spikes 3x to keep full screen but other FKs would do the combo that leaves me close, bait wakeup and rinse repeat not blocking low no matter how many sweeps and d3 i spammed. Shake didnt work on the floor spikes only the glove and green drops

Most likely a pre-patch combo before Freddy's damage was normalized.

Besides, 75% is still no 100%, which is what Smoke has.

I am not going to give you the old man's "Well, back in the day..." speech, but few players understand Mortal Kombat 9's subtleties unless they played the game during its heyday. They judge the game by modern standards, yet the game is nothing like Mortal Kombat X or 11.

Freddy lost horrendously to Smoke not because of the teleport or shake but because of the smoke bomb (and its subsequent 100% combos). The move's hit advantage is so high that Smoke can combo even after hitting by every projectile in the game, including the spike. You may then claim "Breh, just don't throw projectiles". The issue is Smoke's footsies, which are essentially 50/50 mix ups that no zoning character is designed to handle (aside from Kenshi perhaps). However, to this day I still believe that Kenshi lost to Smoke too if the Smoke player is capable of resetting consistently.

What do you propose they do to buff zoners?

Nothing. I would focus on the DLCs and/or kameos.

The game's balance is very delicate because of the kameos.

Look at Tweedy's tier list from earlier today. If you removed Cyrax and Kung Lao from the equation, the game's meta would shift.

If a character like Rain can go from low tier to high tier because of one kameo synergy, anything is possible, including enhancements to zoning characters.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Rain was never low tier. The people saying that didn’t understand the character, and mainly wanted him to play a certain way instead of figuring out how he actually plays.

Usually the actual designer of a character rarely appears on a Kombat Kast.. Normally the people showing off the character have to play different ones each day, and have a lot of other responsibilities. So we just shouldn't take a quick read of an unfinished character as gospel.

 

[Syzoth]

Zoning is interesting in this game.

I keep a log of all my ranked matches. It allows me to keep track of statistics the game doesn't track. I make a note to myself everytime a character uses projectile zoning for atleast 30% of their inputs. This allows me to be aware when I match them again - and also allows me to see how often I get stomped by zoners.

As of today, across my ~230 ranked sets. There's been 37 zoners. Of those zoners I beat 24 of them. So.. zoning is somewhat effective against me.

 

[SaladPlateLover]

Rain was never low tier. The people saying that didn’t understand the character, and mainly wanted him to play a certain way instead of figuring out how he actually plays.

Usually the actual designer of a character rarely appears on a Kombat Kast.. Normally the people showing off the character have to play different ones each day, and have a lot of other responsibilities. So we just shouldn't take a quick read of an unfinished character as gospel.

I don't want him to be a zoner and he's still low tier for me. Just gets carried by Cyrax

 

[SixPathsOfHate]

Zoning is interesting in this game.

I keep a log of all my ranked matches. It allows me to keep track of statistics the game doesn't track. I make a note to myself everytime a character uses projectile zoning for atleast 30% of their inputs. This allows me to be aware when I match them again - and also allows me to see how often I get stomped by zoners.

As of today, across my ~230 ranked sets. There's been 37 zoners. Of those zoners I beat 24 of them. So.. zoning is somewhat effective against me.

Who was the most common zoner? I've just hit grandmaster and I havent fought any decent players using zoners but its on PC so ehh. I only faced 1 good shang.

 

[Juggs]

Rain was never low tier. The people saying that didn’t understand the character, and mainly wanted him to play a certain way instead of figuring out how he actually plays.

It’s very rare that the actual designer of a character appears on a Kombat Kast.. Normally the people showing off the character have to play different ones each day, and have a lot of other responsibilities. So people just need to know not to take a quick read of an unfinished character as gospel.

He was considered lower tier at the time though. No one was making a case for him to be high tier. On most tier list discussions, he was placed somewhere in the bottom 10 or so. So basically he was considered low mid at best. Even though none of the characters have changed, the understanding of the characters change, as well as of course MU understanding. And they change a lot especially early on. This is why early tier lists (and tbh tier lists in general) should always be taken with a grain of salt. Just like in the first week when everyone was saying Smoke was probably a top 5 or so character. It was because no one knew the MU and didn’t know how good other characters were yet, and didn’t realize he was all Smoke & mirrors. At this time, even Baraka wasn’t talked about that much and Cyrax wasn’t even considered to be the best Kameo. Hell, this was when everyone was saying that Sareena was by far the best Kameo and some people were even convinced she would be the first Kameo to get nerfed.

This doesn’t mean that Smoke and Sareena were “never top tier”, because they were. Even though there hasn’t been any balance changes. Now Smoke is more accurately placed imo as around bottom 5-10. Sareena is still considered a good Kameo though, but I think most would say she’s not even really a top 5 Kameo anymore. But even though this feels accurate for right now, that doesn’t mean it’ll be accurate a few weeks from now. We could find out a really good strat with Smoke, Shao, Nitara, etc and figure out that a certain Kameo makes them really really good. But for right now, they’re considered lower tier.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

He was considered lower tier at the time though. No one was making a case for him to be high tier. On most tier list discussions, he was placed somewhere in the bottom 10 or so. So basically he was considered low mid at best. Even though none of the characters have changed, the understanding of the characters change, as well as of course MU understanding. And they change a lot especially early on. This is why early tier lists (and tbh tier lists in general) should always be taken with a grain of salt. Just like in the first week when everyone was saying Smoke was probably a top 5 or so character. It was because no one knew the MU and didn’t know how good other characters were yet, and didn’t realize he was all Smoke & mirrors. At this time, even Baraka wasn’t talked about that much and Cyrax wasn’t even considered to be the best Kameo. Hell, this was when everyone was saying that Sareena was by far the best Kameo and some people were even convinced she would be the first Kameo to get nerfed.

This doesn’t mean that Smoke and Sareena were “never top tier”, because they were. Even though there hasn’t been any balance changes. Now Smoke is more accurately placed imo as around bottom 5-10. Sareena is still considered a good Kameo though, but I think most would say she’s not even really a top 5 Kameo anymore. But even though this feels accurate for right now, that doesn’t mean it’ll be accurate a few weeks from now. We could find out a really good strat with Smoke, Shao, Nitara, etc and figure out that a certain Kameo makes them really really good. But for right now, they’re considered lower tier.

I already think it’s not a great idea to be declaring who’s low tier within the first two weeks of release. This is why I don’t give credence to tier lists made a week after a new fighting game comes out.

But in this case, the reasoning was specifically flawed. You can’t assign a value to how good a character is based on a misinterpretation of how you assume they should play. You need to objectively figure out how to use the tools the character has, instead of the ones you wished they would have. So I had no problem saying a while back that I thought this was wrong, and I’ll stand by that.

 

[Syzoth]

Who was the most common zoner? I've just hit grandmaster and I havent fought any decent players using zoners but its on PC so ehh. I only faced 1 good shang.

Sindel. I'm on Xbox so, also not from the primary community.

 

[rifraf]

In terms of tier lists and their value in this point in time, I'd just like to point out Geras is more or less considered mid tier right now.

To me, that signifies how early it still is for this game.

 

[Juggs]

I already think it’s not a great idea to be declaring who’s low tier within the first two weeks of release. This is why I don’t give credence to tier lists made a week after a new fighting game comes out.

But in this case, the reasoning was specifically flawed. You can’t assign a value to how good a character is based on a misinterpretation of how you assume they should play. You need to objectively figure out how to use the tools the character has, instead of the ones you wished they would have. So I had no problem saying a while back that I thought this was wrong, and I’ll stand by that.

Well yeah this is why everyone should take early tier lists with a grain of salt. So many things change as everyone learns more and more about the game, characters, MU’s, etc. The point is no one was saying Rain was high tier until somewhat recently. Some may have been saying they don’t believe he’s low tier, but with early tier lists a lot of people will tend to make it clear that they aren’t really too sure about certain characters or where to place them. And even now, Rain can still end up being mid to low tier as time goes on. Really any character’s perceived tier position can change, however, it seems like there’s some that’ll stay pretty much where they are until a balance patch. But tier lists are constantly changing regardless.

I just hope someone can find some crazy tech with Smoke honestly. Until then, I’ll be rocking Scorpion with easy mode Baraka as a backup lol

 

[SaltShaker]

Rain was never low tier. The people saying that didn’t understand the character, and mainly wanted him to play a certain way instead of figuring out how he actually plays.

Usually the actual designer of a character rarely appears on a Kombat Kast.. Normally the people showing off the character have to play different ones each day, and have a lot of other responsibilities. So we just shouldn't take a quick read of an unfinished character as gospel.

But isn't he actually pretty bad unless you pair him with Cyrax? Which tbh can be said about almost all of the roster. His other main pairings like Stryker, Sub-Zero, etc, are as low tier as what this game allows at the moment. Cyrax shouldn't be the measuring stick as I'm sure he's Numero Uno on the NRS nerf radar, and once he's nerfed we'll be using characters with a real Kameo system rather than a Cyrax-boost Kameo system.

In fact, I have even created my own head cannon. It is "Tiers that don't involve Cyrax". If Cyrax is the Kameo, I don't even acknowledge it anymore. Johnny Cyrax? Baraka Cyrax? Kenshi Cyrax? Ashrah Cyrax? Rain? Raiden Cyrax? Cyrax isn't a real representation of the game imo and very likely the first nerf.

Well yeah this is why everyone should take early tier lists with a grain of salt. So many things change as everyone learns more and more about the game, characters, MU’s, etc. The point is no one was saying Rain was high tier until somewhat recently. Some may have been saying they don’t believe he’s low tier, but with early tier lists a lot of people will tend to make it clear that they aren’t really too sure about certain characters or where to place them. And even now, Rain can still end up being mid to low tier as time goes on. Really any character’s perceived tier position can change, however, it seems like there’s some that’ll stay pretty much where they are until a balance patch. But tier lists are constantly changing regardless.

I just hope someone can find some crazy tech with Smoke honestly. Until then, I’ll be rocking Scorpion with easy mode Baraka as a backup lol

Yea and not only that, but it seems rather it's "Rain is good with Cyrax" rather than "Rain is good". Well yea, pretty much everyone is great with Cyrax. Cyrax is almost a "doesn't count it's Cyrax" Kameo lol.

 

[Juggs]

But isn't he actually pretty bad unless you pair him with Cyrax? Which tbh can be said about almost all of the roster. His other main pairings like Stryker, Sub-Zero, etc, are as low tier as what this game allows at the moment. Cyrax shouldn't be the measuring stick as I'm sure he's Numero Uno on the NRS nerf radar, and once he's nerfed we'll be using characters with a real Kameo system rather than a Cyrax-boost Kameo system.

In fact, I have even created my own head cannon. It is "Tiers that don't involve Cyrax". If Cyrax is the Kameo, I don't even acknowledge it anymore. Johnny Cyrax? Baraka Cyrax? Kenshi Cyrax? Ashrah Cyrax? Rain? Raiden Cyrax? Cyrax isn't a real representation of the game imo and very likely the first nerf.



Yea and not only that, but it seems rather it's "Rain is good with Cyrax" rather than "Rain is good". Well yea, pretty much everyone is great with Cyrax. Cyrax is almost a "doesn't count it's Cyrax" Kameo lol.

This is one of the reasons why I’m not using Cyrax with Scorpion. But I AM using him with Baraka. But I’m not even using Baraka very much. Just figured I’d try and learn him a bit and he turned out to be A LOT easier to learn than I was expecting. So I just kept going a bit so that I can use him just in case my Scorpion can’t get the job done. But I REALLY like Scorpion in this game so probably will be maining him for the foreseeable future.

 

[rifraf]

But isn't he actually pretty bad unless you pair him with Cyrax? Which tbh can be said about almost all of the roster. His other main pairings like Stryker, Sub-Zero, etc, are as low tier as what this game allows at the moment. Cyrax shouldn't be the measuring stick as I'm sure he's Numero Uno on the NRS nerf radar, and once he's nerfed we'll be using characters with a real Kameo system rather than a Cyrax-boost Kameo system.

In fact, I have even created my own head cannon. It is "Tiers that don't involve Cyrax". If Cyrax is the Kameo, I don't even acknowledge it anymore. Johnny Cyrax? Baraka Cyrax? Kenshi Cyrax? Ashrah Cyrax? Rain? Raiden Cyrax? Cyrax isn't a real representation of the game imo and very likely the first nerf.



Yea and not only that, but it seems rather it's "Rain is good with Cyrax" rather than "Rain is good". Well yea, pretty much everyone is great with Cyrax. Cyrax is almost a "doesn't count it's Cyrax" Kameo lol.

I agree with what you're saying but hear me out. I'd just like to play the devil's advocate for a moment because I'm that guy apparently

What if Cyrax, despite his obvious strengths and universal utility, ends up being another flavour of the month like Sareena? We're already seeing how popular Kameo Kung Lao is starting to be. Also Kameo Sub-Zero with his projectile invulnerability.

I'm not allergic to nerfs but I do get a bit icky And, just to be transparent my main character atm is Li Mei/Scorpion.

 

[M2Dave]

But in this case, the reasoning was specifically flawed. You can’t assign a value to how good a character is based on a misinterpretation of how you assume they should play.

The assumptions were made based on comments from developers and testers live on stream. These individuals are initially the authority on the game and its characters. If NRS advertises Rain as the "premier zoning character" of the game, I will assume that he plays like a zoning character. What reason(s) do I have to doubt them? I suppose that I have a reason now, which is another topic for another day.

The mental gymnastics that you go through day after day, thread after thread, post after post to justify some of NRS's nonsense makes me literally laugh out loud., particularly this part.

Usually the actual designer of a character rarely appears on a Kombat Kast.. Normally the people showing off the character have to play different ones each day, and have a lot of other responsibilities. So we just shouldn't take a quick read of an unfinished character as gospel.

Let us shift blame away from NRS employees onto the players and suggest that the players have caused "misinterpretations".

You cannot be serious with this "logic". I have seen middle schoolers come up with better arguments.

 

[SaladPlateLover]

Watch Sonicfox and you'll see what the best thing Cyrax does for Rain to make him from low tier to mid tier. He covers Rain's weakness of not having any string starters with good range except his 28 frame overhead, so instead you go d3 - geyser - helicopter into plus which would otherwise be -16 ending on geyser. I don't even want to mention the safe armored launcher that is enabled because everyone already knows that but what I just mentioned seems heavily overlooked. Raiden and Baraka can manage on their own because they have far reaching string starters, so Cyrax doesn't elevate them on the same level as he does with Rain.

 

[SaltShaker]

This is one of the reasons why I’m not using Cyrax with Scorpion. But I AM using him with Baraka. But I’m not even using Baraka very much. Just figured I’d try and learn him a bit and he turned out to be A LOT easier to learn than I was expecting. So I just kept going a bit so that I can use him just in case my Scorpion can’t get the job done. But I REALLY like Scorpion in this game so probably will be maining him for the foreseeable future.

My bud just started playing Scorpion who originally had no interest in him and is also saying he's really fun to play. It's the first game in a while I enjoy fighting him so I can see it.

I also haven't been using Cyrax. I pretty much "know without proof but know" that there's no way he isn't getting the nerf hammer, so don't want to waste any time investing in him. Out of all characters and Kameos, he's the only one I truly believe needs big adjustments. No Kameo should make other ones obsolete, or just become a lot of the casts best or one of the best pairs by simply existing.

I agree with what you're saying but hear me out. I'd just like to play the devil's advocate for a moment because I'm that guy apparently

What if Cyrax, despite his obvious strengths and universal utility, ends up being another flavour of the month like Sareena? We're already seeing how popular Kameo Kung Lao is starting to be. Also Kameo Sub-Zero with his projectile invulnerability.

I'm not allergic to nerfs but I do get a bit icky And, just to be transparent my main character atm is Li Mei/Scorpion.

I think Cyrax is different. With Sareena it was veryyyy early and a "pick up the easiest tool, extra damage". She's still good, but just not busted.

Cyrax on the other hand is a meta-breaker. He's actually the only meta-breaker character or Kameo combined. No matter what anyone thinks of Cyrax he has all of these:

--One of the few Kameos who turns your grab into full combo
--Will make your unsafe strings, even unsafe specials, safe or plus on block, with many gapless setups
--Will give you high damage combo routes that don't exist with most Kameos
--Has a net that creates opportunities for some characters that no other Kameo can do
--Highest chip damage setups in the game

Cyrax is not only the best Kameo, he's the best Kameo by far. He's the only true definitive conclusion in the game. All of the tools that make a character/Kameo good he has them, and has the best versions of them.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The assumptions were made based on comments from developers and testers live on stream. These individuals are initially the authority on the game and its characters. If NRS advertises Rain as the "premier zoning character" of the game, I will assume that he plays like a zoning character. What reason(s) do I have to doubt them? I suppose that I have a reason now, which is another topic for another day.

The mental gymnastics that you go through day after day, thread after thread, post after post to justify some of NRS's nonsense makes me literally laugh out loud., particularly this part.



Let us shift blame away from NRS employees onto the players and suggest that the players have caused "misinterpretations".

You cannot be serious with this "logic". I have seen middle schoolers come up with better arguments.

QA has to test 5000 things in the lead-up to a game’s release. Anyone who has tested will tell you that things are still in flux until very close to launch, lots of things aren’t set in stone, and will continue to change.

Players we know, who didn’t have any other job, went to the office and tested characters in previous games that ended up playing completely differently on launch. This is normal and nothing to become toxic over.

This is why assessments of characters need to be built starting with an objective look at all their tools post-release. Anything else is just rushing to judgement based on incomplete info.

Otherwise you end up like this or like this

 

[rifraf]

My bud just started playing Scorpion who originally had no interest in him and is also saying he's really fun to play. It's the first game in a while I enjoy fighting him so I can see it.

I also haven't been using Cyrax. I pretty much "know without proof but know" that there's no way he isn't getting the nerf hammer, so don't want to waste any time investing in him. Out of all characters and Kameos, he's the only one I truly believe needs big adjustments. No Kameo should make other ones obsolete, or just become a lot of the casts best or one of the best pairs by simply existing.



I think Cyrax is different. With Sareena it was veryyyy early and a "pick up the easiest tool, extra damage". She's still good, but just not busted.

Cyrax on the other hand is a meta-breaker. He's actually the only meta-breaker character or Kameo combined. No matter what anyone thinks of Cyrax he has all of these:

--One of the few Kameos who turns your grab into full combo
--Will make your unsafe strings, even unsafe specials, safe or plus on block, with many gapless setups
--Will give you high damage combo routes that don't exist with most Kameos
--Has a net that creates opportunities for some characters that no other Kameo can do
--Highest chip damage setups in the game

Cyrax is not only the best Kameo, he's the best Kameo by far. He's the only true definitive conclusion in the game. All of the tools that make a character/Kameo good he has them, and has the best versions of them.

Yeah, I also agree that he provides a lot. Since there's no game breaking stuff found yet, like infinites which I wouldn't want in the game, I wish the NRS Gods would find a way to buff stuff up elsewhere first, before start nerfing things down. The game has the capacity for buffs right now imo.

 

[Juggs]

My bud just started playing Scorpion who originally had no interest in him and is also saying he's really fun to play. It's the first game in a while I enjoy fighting him so I can see it.

I also haven't been using Cyrax. I pretty much "know without proof but know" that there's no way he isn't getting the nerf hammer, so don't want to waste any time investing in him. Out of all characters and Kameos, he's the only one I truly believe needs big adjustments. No Kameo should make other ones obsolete, or just become a lot of the casts best or one of the best pairs by simply existing.



I think Cyrax is different. With Sareena it was veryyyy early and a "pick up the easiest tool, extra damage". She's still good, but just not busted.

Cyrax on the other hand is a meta-breaker. He's actually the only meta-breaker character or Kameo combined. No matter what anyone thinks of Cyrax he has all of these:

--One of the few Kameos who turns your grab into full combo
--Will make your unsafe strings, even unsafe specials, safe or plus on block, with many gapless setups
--Will give you high damage combo routes that don't exist with most Kameos
--Has a net that creates opportunities for some characters that no other Kameo can do
--Highest chip damage setups in the game

Cyrax is not only the best Kameo, he's the best Kameo by far. He's the only true definitive conclusion in the game. All of the tools that make a character/Kameo good he has them, and has the best versions of them.

To be honest, I don’t believe Cyrax really needs a lot of nerfs or any huge nerfs.

But unfortunately I’m pretty sure it’s not very easy to do what would be ideal. Which would be slight nerfs 3 months after release, and then after 3 more months (so 6 months after release), then you can make bigger adjustments rather than slight ones. At least, that would be MY ideal balancing schedule.

Anyway, ideally, I’d want Cyrax’s Kopter Chopper move to both require more Kameo meter, and to make the Kameo meter recharge slower after Kopter Chopper is used. That way you can only use it once in a combo, and also just overall it costs more and you can’t just throw it out all the time to make every single thing you do safe AND do chip (if they don’t FB ofc). That plus making it to where picking him gives you -100 Health. I think just those nerfs would be sufficient. And then after 3 more months if he’s still a big problem, you can go from there.

I feel like this is how they should approach every nerf. Do slight nerfs to the characters and Kameos who need it, while simultaneously doing slight buffs to the characters and Kameos who need it. A big issue I’ve always had with NRS is that they seem to have the philosophy of “if we’re nerfing this character, we’re gonna REALLY nerf them so that we don’t have to nerf them again in the future”. Which I understand that logistically and it makes sense to an extent. The problem is this makes it really hard to main the top tier characters & Kameos. Because you obviously want to use them because they’re good, but you also realize that they’re likely going to get nerfed. And this wouldn’t as big of an issue if they didn’t gut these characters to where they go from really good to borderline unusable. This is also a big reason I’ve continuously advocated for a “buff more than you nerf” approach. I don’t like the idea of training with a certain character, kameo, or team, and then them being nerfed so harshly that all that time you invested into them was wasted.

To reiterate, I am NOT saying that no characters or Kameos should be nerfed. I just hope they realize that they don’t need to overnerf any of these characters/kameos in order to balance them out. Because if you’re also buffing characters/kameos at the same time, you only need to do slight nerfs anyway. A good example of this is Sub-Zero and them nerfing him from the beta to the full game. I still am not sure what the thought process was there or why/what made them make that decision. Just hope that type of thing doesn’t end up being a trend when it comes to their balancing decisions for MK1.

 

[SaltShaker]

Yeah, I also agree that he provides a lot. Since there's no game breaking stuff found yet, like infinites which I wouldn't want in the game, I wish the NRS Gods would find a way to buff stuff up elsewhere first, before start nerfing things down. The game has the capacity for buffs right now imo.

I think so too, but you said it yourself even there they have to be somewhat delicate. As ridiculous as Cyrax is, a lot of the Rain/Cyrax tech wasn't being utilized a week ago so he just seemed trash in general until now. My main fear in buffing too much would be creating a situation where an early "not too great" character actually was pretty decent and we hadn't brought it out yet, only for them to become Uber Tier because they got buffed thinking they were bad. So I lean towards like, really small or "equalizing buffs" like Goro, there's no reason for his combo toss to have the same turtle speed could as his up-punch. Sub-Zero could use a few buffs even if he doesn't return to his original beta form, etc.

But overall, I think this game is easily the deepest NRS has made. I'd rather not risk buffing or nerfing much at all, very minor and specific. Except Cyrax. Screw that guy lol.

 

[SaltShaker]

To be honest, I don’t believe Cyrax really needs a lot of nerfs or any huge nerfs.

But unfortunately I’m pretty sure it’s not very easy to do what would be ideal. Which would be slight nerfs 3 months after release, and then after 3 more months (so 6 months after release), then you can make bigger adjustments rather than slight ones. At least, that would be MY ideal balancing schedule.

Anyway, ideally, I’d want Cyrax’s Kopter Chopper move to both require more Kameo meter, and to make the Kameo meter recharge slower after Kopter Chopper is used. That way you can only use it once in a combo, and also just overall it costs more and you can’t just throw it out all the time to make every single thing you do safe AND do chip (if they don’t FB ofc). That plus making it to where picking him gives you -100 Health. I think just those nerfs would be sufficient. And then after 3 more months if he’s still a big problem, you can go from there.

I feel like this is how they should approach every nerf. Do slight nerfs to the characters and Kameos who need it, while simultaneously doing slight buffs to the characters and Kameos who need it. A big issue I’ve always had with NRS is that they seem to have the philosophy of “if we’re nerfing this character, we’re gonna REALLY nerf them so that we don’t have to nerf them again in the future”. Which I understand that logistically and it makes sense to an extent. The problem is this makes it really hard to main the top tier characters & Kameos. Because you obviously want to use them because they’re good, but you also realize that they’re likely going to get nerfed. And this wouldn’t as big of an issue if they didn’t gut these characters to where they go from really good to borderline unusable. This is also a big reason I’ve continuously advocated for a “buff more than you nerf” approach. I don’t like the idea of training with a certain character, kameo, or team, and then them being nerfed so harshly that all that time you invested into them was wasted.

To reiterate, I am NOT saying that no characters or Kameos should be nerfed. I just hope they realize that they don’t need to overnerf any of these characters/kameos in order to balance them out. Because if you’re also buffing characters/kameos at the same time, you only need to do slight nerfs anyway. A good example of this is Sub-Zero and them nerfing him from the beta to the full game. I still am not sure what the thought process was there or why/what made them make that decision. Just hope that type of thing doesn’t end up being a trend when it comes to their balancing decisions for MK1.

No I actually think you make a lot of sense and would agree with those nerfs. It's ridiculous I can do a Goro combo since last night and I'm still waiting today for it to recharge, but I can use a do-it-all Cyrax with standard cooldown. Things like you suggested such as increasing the cooldown, lowering the health, and seeing how it plays it would be a great option. It would give time to understand if it was a good enough adjustment while keeping value, because ultimately you don't want to give him the Deadshot treatment where the character literally disappeared after the first patch.

 

[rifraf]

I think so too, but you said it yourself even there they have to be somewhat delicate. As ridiculous as Cyrax is, a lot of the Rain/Cyrax tech wasn't being utilized a week ago so he just seemed trash in general until now. My main fear in buffing too much would be creating a situation where an early "not too great" character actually was pretty decent and we hadn't brought it out yet, only for them to become Uber Tier because they got buffed thinking they were bad. So I lean towards like, really small or "equalizing buffs" like Goro, there's no reason for his combo toss to have the same turtle speed could as his up-punch. Sub-Zero could use a few buffs even if he doesn't return to his original beta form, etc.

But overall, I think this game is easily the deepest NRS has made. I'd rather not risk buffing or nerfing much at all, very minor and specific. Except Cyrax. Screw that guy lol.

Yup, totally agree. I'm personally scared in seeing what happened to Beta Sub-Zero being the norm approach moving forward. The guy wasn't even that strong to begin with. I understand nerfing what's broken/bugged, but if they start nerfing the fun out of the game then when do they stop? It is delicate, like you said.

 

[M2Dave]

QA has to test 5000 things in the lead-up to a game’s release. Anyone who has tested will tell you that things are still in flux until very close to launch, lots of things aren’t set in stone, and will continue to change.

Players we know, who didn’t have any other job, went to the office and tested characters in previous games that ended up playing completely differently on launch. This is normal and nothing to become toxic over.

This is why assessments of characters need to be built starting with an objective look at all their tools post-release. Anything else is just rushing to judgement based on incomplete info.

Otherwise you end up like this or like this

If being toxic is quoting the individuals who played a role in creating and/or polishing the game and holding them accountable for their words, I suppose that I am guilty as charged. LOL.

You always seem to give the NRS developers the benefit of the doubt, yet the players, even the ones who clearly preface their opinions as initial reactions, you show little to no compassion. You surreptitiously criticize and take nonstop cheap shots at players, including your most recent comment on "low-tier, unviable Sub Zero". You love cherry picking results in order to make points that are aberrational in nature.

REO and Tom need to bring back the podcast because I have plenty to say.