Sub-Zero General Discussion

[Amplified$hotz]

The big thing to me is that slide just… doesn’t make sense.

If I need to stay half screen and throw clones, fine, but this feels like older fighting game stuff. The kind where they make a grappler which sucks but turns out they’ve got great buttons so you just push those or whatever.

slide leaving you right next to them strikes me as that’s where he’s supposed to be, but as it stands it feels like a trap and you’re better off ending In something else because he’s weak there.

And I mention slide because in literally every other game it pushed them away from you, which is what sub wanted. He might have a viable strat but I don’t think he’s working as intended

If klone stayed up for more than a picosecond, and didn’t have 1000 years of recovery. Slide would be great because you could setup a klone trap afterwards.

This is why I say his frame data needs an overhaul. The moves are okay but the gaps, recovery, and cool downs, keep the character down.

 

[BanTheTesters]

I can agree that BF2 is one of the best projectiles in the game and saying that in a vacuum isn’t a problem but in context it pisses me off as if a half screen projectile excuses why Sub is so ass

I enjoy playing sub in the game and I enjoy a challenge…I understand the “in theory” reason why sub was nerfed but idk man…

Bf2 is alright, but any smart player is going to find that move a Minor annoyance more than anything after they jump over it has hit you for 45%…one wrong bf2 and you could at least in this game lose an entire match…

I feel like sub really doesn’t have any room for error…I’ve seen other characters make a mistake eat a bit o damage then snowball the rest of the match…but with sub? The entire time is spent with your fingers crossed hoping your opponent sneezes and drops the 50% combo so you can dice roll on another possible mistake..

but I’m definitely curious on pro players and the rest of the communities thoughts on him so far

NOTE: this is also a game that a have found bf2 does not work in long sets…sub at least for me is a character that people are getting used to quickly..and then realizing after match 2 that all you have to do is throw a bucket of water on him and your fine…

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I enjoy playing sub in the game and I enjoy a challenge…I understand the “in theory” reason why sub was nerfed but idk man…

Bf2 is alright, but any smart player is going to find that move a Minor annoyance more than anything after they jump over it has hit you for 45%…one wrong bf2 and you could at least in this game lose an entire match…

I feel like sub really doesn’t have any room for error…I’ve seen other characters make a mistake eat a bit o damage then snowball the rest of the match…but with sub? The entire time is spent with your fingers crossed hoping your opponent sneezes and drops the 50% combo so you can dice roll on another possible mistake..

but I’m definitely curious on pro players and the rest of the communities thoughts on him so far

NOTE: this is also a game that a have found bf2 does not work in long sets…sub at least for me is a character that people are getting used to quickly..and then realizing after match 2 that all you have to do is throw a bucket of water on him and your fine…

Everything you said is my experience. For some reason people who don’t play Sub think this character is so great because of what he can do in training mode or against incompetent players.

 

[ConeOnBricks]

Honestly I think Lao assist makes sub a pretty complete character. Neutral low hat really opens up his zoning options and gives him advantage off meaty every time the opponent chooses not to armor. I also think the other subs I've played so far are underutilizing the utility of air klone and divekick. Being able to neutral jump and air klone retreat or divekick punish whiffed projectiles/anti-air attempts is really strong in its own right. I've been having mad fun with the character regardless.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Honestly I think Lao assist makes sub a pretty complete character. Neutral low hat really opens up his zoning options and gives him advantage off meaty every time the opponent chooses not to armor. I also think the other subs I've played so far are underutilizing the utility of air klone and divekick. Being able to neutral jump and air klone retreat or divekick punish whiffed projectiles/anti-air attempts is really strong in its own right. I've been having mad fun with the character regardless.

I actually agree with this to a degree, but that’s looking at Sub in a vacuum, which is where I disagree. Yes he can meaty when they choose not to armor but he has to make the correct read as always, we have characters with guaranteed setups, way more than plus frames that can only be followed up with a basic strike / throw or 15 frame mid that ends -7, or string into another low hat. Which is fine if this game were full of more reasonable characters, but it’s full of degenerate characters. I also enjoy him a lot regardless. And I agree man, I’m getting a ton of mileage out of air klone and dive kick. Establishing air klone early on in a match makes BF2 way more effective since they’re not so keen to jump it. I don’t know if low hat is enough to offset what you’re giving up for Sonya, Goro, Sub-Zero, or Sareena, but Lao is definitely a good kameo for him.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I enjoy playing sub in the game and I enjoy a challenge…I understand the “in theory” reason why sub was nerfed but idk man…

Bf2 is alright, but any smart player is going to find that move a Minor annoyance more than anything after they jump over it has hit you for 45%…one wrong bf2 and you could at least in this game lose an entire match…

I feel like sub really doesn’t have any room for error…I’ve seen other characters make a mistake eat a bit o damage then snowball the rest of the match…but with sub? The entire time is spent with your fingers crossed hoping your opponent sneezes and drops the 50% combo so you can dice roll on another possible mistake..

but I’m definitely curious on pro players and the rest of the communities thoughts on him so far

NOTE: this is also a game that a have found bf2 does not work in long sets…sub at least for me is a character that people are getting used to quickly..and then realizing after match 2 that all you have to do is throw a bucket of water on him and your fine…

You’re being way too charitable, every single one of his nerfs was bullshit in the context of the rest of the game, he’s bottom 3 minimum and arguably worst in the game, you could make a strong case for it.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Characters that have as good or better projectiles to me: Reiko, Lao, Liu Kang, Tanya, Kenshi, Sareena, Kano, frost, rain, Havik, Shang Tsung, motaro, sektor. Maybeee Scorpions spear.

Well fuck when you put it like that. I think BF2 is amazing at its max range, let’s say that, but yeah it’s nothing compared to Shang, Liu Kang, or Reiko especially.

 

[Kiss the Missile]

How would you guys fix EX clone?
Personally, I think for 2 bars the clones should stay out for much longer, and the back 2 should be lower so they could actually block something

 

[Dankster Morgan]

How would you guys fix EX clone?
Personally, I think for 2 bars the clones should stay out for much longer, and the back 2 should be lower so they could actually block something

1 bar and what you said

 

[Gito666]

I've been rocking Sareena with Sub just for the damage, but I'm starting to think he really needs an ambush assist... I'm gonna give Goro a shot. If that doesn't pan out, maybe Scorp or Sonya. Sub is already gimped, and he feels more so without an ambush

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Well guys what @Amplified$hotz said about his interaction with foxy reminded me of this fucking terrible thumbnail he made back in the stress test:

The description begins with “every game they make this character insane, Mortal Kombat 1 is no different”. Like do they REALLY? Garbage in 9, high but not top tier in X (he decimated a lot of characters and was poor design but he lost a lot of matchups even at his best), low - low mid in Injustice 2, and was in the discussion for top 10 in MK11 if rewind’s tier list is something to go by. Now I don’t think foxy is a shit head for doing this, I actually like him a lot and he is very fun to watch play, extremely talented and knowledgeable. I get it, thumbnails like that get clicks and the man wants to grow a YouTube Chanel, puts out good content, and deserves to. But it alerts the horde and the normies will fucking flip, it’s not good for the game and I refuse to believe talk like this had nothing to do with Sub being gutted compared to Cage and Kenshi who were the best characters in the beta and are the best in the real game too. Foxy in MKX said Mileena was good when people said she was bad, and guess what, he started playing Mileena. I’m not being cheeky or sarcastic when I say I’d love to be proven wrong about Sub the same way the Mileena community had to eat their words back in the day. Once again I like foxy and if he says Sub is good, he’s worth hearing out but I’m not seeing the light right now.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I've been rocking Sareena with Sub just for the damage, but I'm starting to think he really needs an ambush assist... I'm gonna give Goro a shot. If that doesn't pan out, maybe Scorp or Sonya. Sub is already gimped, and he feels more so without an ambush

You also get an armored launcher with Goro and Sonya and Goro can make it safe from full screen. Sonya is really good not just for that and combo damage, but her charged ring is awesome and super plus, very useful outside of characters like Reiko or Baraka with a super fast projectile that’ll just stuff you

 

[Gito666]

You also get an armored launcher with Goro and Sonya and Goro can make it safe from full screen. Sonya is really good not just for that and combo damage, but her charged ring is awesome and super plus, very useful outside of characters like Reiko or Baraka with a super fast projectile that’ll just stuff you

Thx for the advice! I know that's the right call, but I also really like playing characters I LIKE in fighting games. I'm not particularly fond of Goro, I kinda dislike Sonya, and I really like Sareena lol. But I guess I'll suck it up if they make Sub work better in MK1

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Thx for the advice! I know that's the right call, but I also really like playing characters I LIKE in fighting games. I'm not particularly fond of Goro, I kinda dislike Sonya, and I really like Sareena lol. But I guess I'll suck it up if they make Sub work better in MK1

Sareena is also a valid choice man, not just the damage, but makes iceball conversions more realistic, Dkameo is nice, meter drain in corner, etc

 

[Gito666]

Sareena is also a valid choice man, not just the damage, but makes iceball conversions more realistic, Dkameo is nice, meter drain in corner, etc

Agreed. I just tried goro and scorp, and they seem like way more trouble than they're worth for minimal damage. Also, why the HELL does Scorp's OH assist put the opponent in an airborne state?! That completely ruins the gravity for the rest of Sub's kombo. I think I may just stick with Sareena when playing Sub. Although I've been working on my Scorpion main, so idk how much longer I'll be playing Sub seriously, even tho I LOVE the character

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Agreed. I just tried goro and scorp, and they seem like way more trouble than they're worth for minimal damage. Also, why the HELL does Scorp's OH assist put the opponent in an airborne state?! That completely ruins the gravity for the rest of Sub's kombo. I think I may just stick with Sareena when playing Sub. Although I've been working on my Scorpion main, so idk how much longer I'll be playing Sub seriously, even tho I LOVE the character

Agree on Scorp. Sub and Scorp combos look so damn cool but you may as well hit them with a whiffle bat. I know you don’t like Sonya as a character but I think switching between her, Sareena and Sub. Or Lao. Sonya’s meterless launch off F12 is also a side switch and of course so is the ex slide launcher.

My favorite use of Sareena is incredibly gimicky. When there is a 200 ping Raiden or someone I just don’t want to have the satisfaction of a W against me, and the connection is so bad it’s not like I’ll meaningfully improve my skills from this match anyway, I’ll load up Sareena and just constantly B2 and B3 into knives cause guess what, the shitty connection buffed Sub into a safe ish 50/50 since we’re playing underwater and they’re not gonna react to B2, and I’m not gonna be humiliated by someone using a degenerate character doing the same thing of abusing shitty connections.

 

[Eji1700]

So like....is it just me or does lao low hat make kano ball looks silly?

Actually + for pressure on block, low hit for low/high mixup, leads to combos on hit, and VASTLY faster cooldown.

I forgot to check, but does lao hat actually drain kameo bar while you hold it like kano ball, or is that another area where they decided hat should be better?

To be clear I don't think lao necessarily needs to be nerfed or kano buffed, but these two kameo's feel like they're not playing the same game.

Edit-

Oh and I forgot, hat can't be hit while it's charging while kano ball can.

 

[ConeOnBricks]

To be fair they do different things. By nature of being ambush the kano ball and knife toss are good for covering unsafe options. While held hat and held kano ball are similar, Kano ball won't leave you stuck in place vulnerable during the activation. That being said, Kano doesn't really do much for sub in my opinon. Kano is a good assist for characters who have strong unsafe options to open people up. Keeping YOLO slide and reactable overhead safe is a pointless endeavor since you're not really opening up good players like that. Lao gives him more threatening neutral and the ability to be advantageous off anything. The counterplay is really easy to blow up armor attempts. Even if you get hit, getting someone off bar in this game is usually worth taking the 100 damage or so from a reversal. F12 low hat meaty just lets you bully people on wakeup since the second hit will usually catch delay wakeup as well. You really only have to guess whether or not they'll armor which isn't that scary most of the time. Lao having a launching meterless reversal in the form of spin is also a massive upgrade over Kano and pretty much all his other assist options. Kano assist could be situationally useful against players using sub assist though since I suspect kano ball doesn't count as a projectile

 

[WA-Finest]

My suggestion for Sub is to make him able to cancel into slide after b34 and 34 for like 18%, just make the cancel really late so he still can't full combo without an ambush assist, then make these strings s1 punishable. Then on block you have the will-he-cancel mindgame to try and get out of a punish. This would make people respect his b3 and 3 a lot more and it would open up some pressure for him and give him a way to potentially cover both normal wakeup and delay wakeup for decent damage forcing people to wakeup attack a bit more. Obviously he could probably use a few more tweaks but what would y'all think of this?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

So like....is it just me or does lao low hat make kano ball looks silly?

Actually + for pressure on block, low hit for low/high mixup, leads to combos on hit, and VASTLY faster cooldown.

I forgot to check, but does lao hat actually drain kameo bar while you hold it like kano ball, or is that another area where they decided hat should be better?

To be clear I don't think lao necessarily needs to be nerfed or kano buffed, but these two kameo's feel like they're not playing the same game.

Edit-

Oh and I forgot, hat can't be hit while it's charging while kano ball can.

It’s much better aside from the splat from the Kano ball.

My suggestion for Sub is to make him able to cancel into slide after b34 and 34 for like 18%, just make the cancel really late so he still can't full combo without an ambush assist, then make these strings s1 punishable. Then on block you have the will-he-cancel mindgame to try and get out of a punish. This would make people respect his b3 and 3 a lot more and it would open up some pressure for him and give him a way to potentially cover both normal wakeup and delay wakeup for decent damage forcing people to wakeup attack a bit more. Obviously he could probably use a few more tweaks but what would y'all think of this?

I don’t think 18% is worth the trade off of a blocked slide and I don’t think it’s enough to constitute B34 being more unsafe but hell yeah I’d like kameo less sub to have something to do off B34

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Well guys what @Amplified$hotz said about his interaction with foxy reminded me of this fucking terrible thumbnail he made back in the stress test:

The description begins with “every game they make this character insane, Mortal Kombat 1 is no different”. Like do they REALLY? Garbage in 9, high but not top tier in X (he decimated a lot of characters and was poor design but he lost a lot of matchups even at his best), low - low mid in Injustice 2, and was in the discussion for top 10 in MK11 if rewind’s tier list is something to go by. Now I don’t think foxy is a shit head for doing this, I actually like him a lot and he is very fun to watch play, extremely talented and knowledgeable. I get it, thumbnails like that get clicks and the man wants to grow a YouTube Chanel, puts out good content, and deserves to. But it alerts the horde and the normies will fucking flip, it’s not good for the game and I refuse to believe talk like this had nothing to do with Sub being gutted compared to Cage and Kenshi who were the best characters in the beta and are the best in the real game too. Foxy in MKX said Mileena was good when people said she was bad, and guess what, he started playing Mileena. I’m not being cheeky or sarcastic when I say I’d love to be proven wrong about Sub the same way the Mileena community had to eat their words back in the day. Once again I like foxy and if he says Sub is good, he’s worth hearing out but I’m not seeing the light right now.

Pro players have agendas just like everybody else. Which is why I don’t really listen to them. You have the winner of CEOtaku saying garbage like this https://x.com/stryker_fgc/status/1710135521454809345?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I’ve challenged everyone who thinks he’s good to play him in serious sets against competent players and livestream it for us to see. None have taken up the offer.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Pro players have agendas just like everybody else. Which is why I don’t really listen to them. You have the winner of CEOtaku saying garbage like this https://x.com/stryker_fgc/status/1710135521454809345?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

Yeah fuck that guy to the moon. Not interacting just means a move I don’t want to have to deal with. My guy you’re interacting with him when you’re bypassing the klone. He is cheeks point blank and isn’t able to “interact” back whatever that means. That’s what he does, you can not like it but you’re interacting with it. SZ is one of the only characters that offers a diversity of play-styles in MK1.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I’ve challenged everyone who thinks he’s good to play him in serious sets against competent players and livestream it for us to see. None have taken up the offer.

No because they’d look an absolute fool after the the first klone cancel gets punished, every time B2 is easily reacted to and whatever safe B2 setup you have is just another way to give up your turn, every time the gaps in his jab stings are exposed, every failed whiff punish because your advancing mid is 15 frames, every unsafe thing that gets punished when you start to get desperate, every ice ball trade you haven’t a prayer of converting off, every time BF2 is just jumped over, every time the ice klone gets poked straight through. If they say he’s good but actually had to play him they know they’d just look like an asshole. Anytime I see match footage of a person who thinks sub is good and they’re playing someone like Scorpion or Sindel and they don’t punish klone cancels, or anyone with a Sektor kameo doesn’t even try, I instantly tune out.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Yeah fuck that guy to the moon. Not interacting just means a move I don’t want to have to deal with. My guy you’re interacting with him when you’re bypassing the klone. He is cheeks point blank and isn’t able to “interact” back whatever that means. That’s what he does, you can not like it but you’re interacting with it. SZ is one of the only characters that offers a diversity of play-styles in MK1.

Yeah there’s an obvious agenda against Sub-Zero. Players (of all skill levels) don’t want him to be strong.

I just hope NRS does the right thing and buffs him well in the first balance patch.

I know my view is extreme, but I genuinely think he’s near unplayable in any serious setting with money on the line.

I’m moving on to Kenshi for kombat league. Only playing Sub in practice mode and casual.