MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

[Skybox]

the first K&M Tier list

Link for those who wanna watch:

 

[Tony at Home]

Kenshi deserves his own tier above S tier. He's playing a different game than the rest of the cast

 

[Skybox]

Kenshi deserves his own tier above S tier. He's playing a different game than the rest of the cast

I'm mostly shocked at how high scorp and reptile are

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

Smoke sucks in high level but scrubs fear him so much because they dont block things lol. Had a raiden sareena tell me i rely on my character after a set, brother block any of that and im dead

 

[Bloodfang]

Smoke sucks in high level but scrubs fear him so much because they dont block things lol. Had a raiden sareena tell me i rely on my character after a set, brother block any of that and im dead

That is rich coming from a Raiden player. Raiden is sooo good in this game it feels unfair, lol.

 

[CipherJ]

Eh i disagree. Personally, i see S- or something like that as the metaknight or mk9 kabal tier, where maybe you can leave them in, but they're warping the entire game and not picking them isn't just preference but likely a mistake.

A+ should absolutely be "these are the best in the game", but I don't think any of them MUST be nerfed or are unhealthy for the meta. You're still seeing a ton of people playing other characters right now and there's a bunch of tech to still find.

And as for the semantics, it's just dumb to use S as "oh these guys are good", because as the meta's get worse and worse you wind up with all sorts of stupid nonsense as people make up even more shit (SS, SSS, EXS+ALPHAEXTENDEXLATEWITH2PUMPSANDACOKE). The "A is for good but not broken" mindset is never going to catch simply because the thumbnail view economy demands you have a shocked expression looking at the highest letter possible, but it's so dumb that every single list has it's own internal metric.

Hell LordKnight claimed he's not using letters at all anymore for his lists for similar reasons. If you want clickbait its fine but if you actually want to have a useful discussion with other people you need to be on the same page, and that works way better.

S-Tier seems to apply to Fujin in Mk11 in its final build. The GF at Evo 2023 was a Fujin mirror and even Foxy Gpa was beat handily in losers final to Fujin.

 

[ReD WolF]

It will be interesting to see how characters shift around through out this game's lifespan. The game seems to have a lot of depth thus far. I think Cage and Kenshi are the two best characters in the game right now.

 

[THTB]

I'm mostly shocked at how high scorp and reptile are

Honestly, from what I'm seeing, I think Reptile has a decent ceiling. And I definitely agree that stuff like Sub invisibility setups could be really good down the line.

 

[Juggs]

It will be interesting to see how characters shift around through out this game's lifespan. The game seems to have a lot of depth thus far. I think Cage and Kenshi are the two best characters in the game right now.

Yeah, Cage, Kenshi, Baraka and Raiden seem to be on their own island.

I know Kenshi likes to use Frost and Sub, as well as a couple others. And Baraka of course seems to be married to Cyrax. And from what I’ve seen, one of the better Kameos for Raiden is Jax. But with Cage, I’ve seen Kano, Stryker, Cyrax (obv), and I think maybe 1 other one.

I’ve said this before, but everyone needs to completely get rid of any mentality of “this character is only good because of their Kameo!”. The entire point of this game is that you get to try and find a Kameo that complements your character. The only issue thus far is that of course, some Kameos seem waaaay better than others and can be used with a lot of teams. Early on everyone was using Sareena and she’s hardly even talked about much anymore. Because all she really does is allow good damage combos and can go into a good combo off of a projectile. But since everyone and their Mother was using her, it feels like everyone quickly found ways to beat her or at least make her less effective especially with her throwing her boomerangs in neutral. It seems like the best Kameos like Cryax there’s no real counter play because he doesn’t do much in neutral. He’s utilized for chip, making things safe, extending combos, and has 2 different ways to combo off of throws for a lot of characters (and at least 1 universal one, albeit at the cost of 2 bars). It really feels like Cyrax is by far the best Kameo. And like I said, it’s not like you can really come up with a strat to kombat Cyrax for the reasons I mentioned.

To be clear though, I am absolutely not asking for nerfs whatsoever. Just maybe some of the other Kameos need to be explored more and possibly even buffed. I’m really trying to make Motaro work, but idk. Some Kameos can do some cool things. Like watching ChrisG utilize Stryker with Reptile was amazing. He was making Reptile seem very strong. Oh and I think the Scorpion Kameo is pretty good. Been having fun learning my Scorp+Scorp team lol

 

[SaltShaker]

Late to the thread but I'm still in the "too early" camp, but not TOO early. Some things are this point are readily obvious. Cyrax is by far the best Kameo, rendering some Kameos absolutely useless for some characters when you can "just Cyrax bro". Sub-Zero is obviously really bad. But outside of things that are this blatant, the rest should be left untouched for a bit.

For example, if you nerf Cyrax, Baraka will still be good, but not "legit best in the game" good, and you'll actually have to see a Baraka player use different Kameos. For some characters, Cyrax defeats the whole purpose of the Kameo system because he can just do all things combined.

The flip side is Sub-Zero, that unless you're the ultimate character loyalist, there isn't much reason to play him. The nerf after the beta was a huge over-correction considering how busted some characters are. When no Kameo can save you, you need help.

There are very, veryyy few blatant examples like this, so for now it's the only types of adjustments I'd make.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Late to the thread but I'm still in the "too early" camp, but not TOO early. Some things are this point are readily obvious. Cyrax is by far the best Kameo, rendering some Kameos absolutely useless for some characters when you can "just Cyrax bro". Sub-Zero is obviously really bad. But outside of things that are this blatant, the rest should be left untouched for a bit.

For example, if you nerf Cyrax, Baraka will still be good, but not "legit best in the game" good, and you'll actually have to see a Baraka player use different Kameos. For some characters, Cyrax defeats the whole purpose of the Kameo system because he can just do all things combined.

The flip side is Sub-Zero, that unless you're the ultimate character loyalist, there isn't much reason to play him. The nerf after the beta was a huge over-correction considering how busted some characters are. When no Kameo can save you, you need help.

There are very, veryyy few blatant examples like this, so for now it's the only types of adjustments I'd make.

If Beta Sub were in the game, exactly as he was, he still wouldn’t be top 10, but he’d be as good as he needed to be. It’s not that he’s bad that frustrates me, shit happens and it’s hard to balance a fighting game, plus it’s launch. But the klone nerfs were so deliberate and specific that the more I think about, the more frustrated I get. Not just the klone duration and cooldown but why nerf his mid? And his damage?

I wish he didn’t have the klone, in MK11 they moved away from it, not everyone hated him so much, and they made a functional character. In MKX the klone was dominant but the base character was shit aside from good pokes and a 50/50, the character worked, but had some of the most lopsided matchups in the game (for and against him) all because of klone. So if he has klone, they gimp the base character. “Klone-less” Sub shouldn’t be great, but now the klone sucks too.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

mk1 clone isnt mk9/mkx clone, it doesnt function as a prison or perfect fortress, it makes it so that if anyone jumps or dashes towards you gets frozen for a 40% combo, and then people start respecting that, so sub gets to exploit that respect. He could use a small buff but he isnt THAT bad

 

[kabelfritz]

out of curiosity, what makes sub-zero bad? many sub-players i met made him look pretty damn good.

 

[Pan1cMode]

out of curiosity, what makes sub-zero bad? many sub-players i met made him look pretty damn good.

No one in this game is “bad”. Sub is definitely not “good” though.

Lacks practical damage, limited zoning options, limited staggers/pressure, limited mixups. He still has tools, but he feels worse compared with the majority of the roster.

 

[NHDR]

I've played a decent amount of Sub since release, and as much as I want to wait and see how the game evolves before talking buffs/nerfs, his clone really needs a buff. Even a small one. It lasts such a short time that its mostly useless in the corner and as an AA/zoning tool.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I've played a decent amount of Sub since release, and as much as I want to wait and see how the game evolves before talking buffs/nerfs, his clone really needs a buff. Even a small one. It lasts such a short time that its mostly useless in the corner and as an AA/zoning tool.

I don’t think people have looked at the recovery of it and realized that by the time SZ can move, the klone is only active for like a quarter of a second. He’s not waiting for you to do something or playing a mind game, he’s waiting for him to be able to do something

 

[Eji1700]

mk1 clone isnt mk9/mkx clone, it doesnt function as a prison or perfect fortress, it makes it so that if anyone jumps or dashes towards you gets frozen for a 40% combo, and then people start respecting that, so sub gets to exploit that respect. He could use a small buff but he isnt THAT bad

Except they can just armor through it. And if you do freeze them you often don't get 40% unless you're burning 2+ bars. And the clone cd is so long that if you DO keep them at bay and then figure out a way to open them up, then you can't use the clone in the following combo.

What is insanely frustrating about all of this is that literally every other character is playing "their game" to some extent. They have very clearly defined mechanics, and they work extremely well together. Some are way better than others, but taking any in isolation you can see how their kit works.

Sub's kit was clearly built around his clone, and yet it's so nerfed most of it feels anemic. You end most combos in slide, at point blank to the opponent with advantage, and it feels like that's actually bad simply because your buttons are so weak it's a risk to even pressure (ESPECIALLY if they know to armor through the gaps) and because clone can be armored on reaction if they're good.

He just doesn't function right. His kit doesn't make sense (and that's before we go into the hot mess that EX clone is.)

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Sub is a lot better online because it’s harder to react to B2 which is pretty much a no brainer offline. A lot of online Subs have success with B2 or B3 into Sareena for a safe “50/50”. Tom Brady calls it “fools gold” because B2 would never hit that often offline, and Tom is a subject matter expert on fooling people for gold, so he’s definitely correct in this case.

 

[ReD WolF]

Yeah, Cage, Kenshi, Baraka and Raiden seem to be on their own island.

I know Kenshi likes to use Frost and Sub, as well as a couple others. And Baraka of course seems to be married to Cyrax. And from what I’ve seen, one of the better Kameos for Raiden is Jax. But with Cage, I’ve seen Kano, Stryker, Cyrax (obv), and I think maybe 1 other one.

I’ve said this before, but everyone needs to completely get rid of any mentality of “this character is only good because of their Kameo!”. The entire point of this game is that you get to try and find a Kameo that complements your character. The only issue thus far is that of course, some Kameos seem waaaay better than others and can be used with a lot of teams. Early on everyone was using Sareena and she’s hardly even talked about much anymore. Because all she really does is allow good damage combos and can go into a good combo off of a projectile. But since everyone and their Mother was using her, it feels like everyone quickly found ways to beat her or at least make her less effective especially with her throwing her boomerangs in neutral. It seems like the best Kameos like Cryax there’s no real counter play because he doesn’t do much in neutral. He’s utilized for chip, making things safe, extending combos, and has 2 different ways to combo off of throws for a lot of characters (and at least 1 universal one, albeit at the cost of 2 bars). It really feels like Cyrax is by far the best Kameo. And like I said, it’s not like you can really come up with a strat to kombat Cyrax for the reasons I mentioned.

To be clear though, I am absolutely not asking for nerfs whatsoever. Just maybe some of the other Kameos need to be explored more and possibly even buffed. I’m really trying to make Motaro work, but idk. Some Kameos can do some cool things. Like watching ChrisG utilize Stryker with Reptile was amazing. He was making Reptile seem very strong. Oh and I think the Scorpion Kameo is pretty good. Been having fun learning my Scorp+Scorp team lol

It definitely seems like Cyrax is the overall best assist character given his versatility as of right now. I myself am guilty of using him with Baraka lol. It's so much fun. I too would like to see the meta develop a bit more before any nerfing takes place like you said. The more I play online and watch streams the more unique tech I see across the board. In a month or 2 from now we may certain characters rise up due to new tech. Who knows? Interesting times.

 

[Juggs]

It definitely seems like Cyrax is the overall best assist character given his versatility as of right now. I myself am guilty of using him with Baraka lol. It's so much fun. I too would like to see the meta develop a bit more before any nerfing takes place like you said. The more I play online and watch streams the more unique tech I see across the board. In a month or 2 from now we may certain characters rise up due to new tech. Who knows? Interesting times.

I haven’t really used him yet, but I also don’t have a lot of time with the game yet. Started off using Smoke & Sareena. But imo Smoke just isn’t gonna cut it unless he gets some sort of buffs. So I’ve been using Scorpion and the most fun Kameo so far with him is himself, Scorpion, lol. I typically always main Scorpion but Smoke is my favorite character in MK. I just personally don’t think he’s good enough yet. Maybe someone will find some really good tech with him to make him better. Because right now, he destroys scrubs or players who don’t know the MU, but good players and especially ones who know the MU, you have to work way too hard to where it’s honestly not very fun. ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[SaltShaker]

No one in this game is “bad”. Sub is definitely not “good” though.

Lacks practical damage, limited zoning options, limited staggers/pressure, limited mixups. He still has tools, but he feels worse compared with the majority of the roster.

This is just another way of saying a character is bad without wanting to say a character is bad. "They're not bad, they just lack almost all the important competitive tools and feel worse compared to the majority of the roster". Well yea, that's why they're pretty bad lol.

In the context relative to the game, where you are facing Baraka/Cyrax, Raiden/Jax, Kenshi, etc, or to a lesser extent Shang/Sindel/Havik/Lao "not broken but good types, or even lesser extent than that the Liu/Reiko/Kitana types, Sub is as bad as it gets competitively. The only way Sub could be worse would be to be one of the 2-8 MU joke characters or an old school low tier MK9 character.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

This is just another way of saying a character is bad without wanting to say a character is bad. "They're not bad, they just lack almost all the important competitive tools and feel worse compared to the majority of the roster". Well yea, that's why they're pretty bad lol.

In the context relative to the game, where you are facing Baraka/Cyrax, Raiden/Jax, Kenshi, etc, or to a lesser extent Shang/Sindel/Havik/Lao "not broken but good types, or even lesser extent than that the Liu/Reiko/Kitana types, Sub is as bad as it gets competitively. The only way Sub could be worse would be to be one of the 2-8 MU joke characters or an old school low tier MK9 character.

Yes he’s as bad as you can be while still being a functional character.

 

[Bloodfang]

I know the Kameos are a major part of the game but I feel it is more fair to have like 3 Tier lists.
1st. The main cast. Graded on how well they play independent of kameos. Like if both players agreed to simply not use them just to see how well the characters perform on their own. An already solid character is just going to be better period with any kameo, imo.
2nd. Kameo list. Graded on overall utility and number of characters/situations they are great for.
3rd. Optimum List. Characters with their currently decided best kameo(s) compared to one another. (aka The way tier lists have been done so far). Honestly if Cyrax is the be all, end all kameo like alot are saying than base the whole cast on them + Cyrax vs each other. lol.

I say this because ALOT of the pro tier list vids here say things (for example) like "Scorpion with Cyrax can be a solid A/A+ character in the right hands but without kameo he'd be much lower like Sub-Zero. He would feel like an incomplete character without a good kameo." OK. Then is it really true to say Scorpion is in the same class as other A/A+ Tier characters? Not really. Arguably Cyrax is just so good he makes even the low tiers able to stay competitive. Baraka, Cage, Raiden, and Kenshi are all really rough even if you had a newb moment and forgot you had a kameo. Are they better with them? Obviously. But they are still probably top tier as far as base roster if all put on even footing.

 

[Juggs]

I definitely agree with what a lot have said, as well as some top players like F0xy that the tier lists are gonna come down to characters paired with Kameos. And perhaps even listing the same character multiple times based on their Kameo. But I’m definitely nowhere near prepared to make an early list on that. But I can make an early regular tier list! Please keep in mind, the game has only been out for a bit over 2 weeks or so. So these tier lists are just what people are feeling at the time. So they absolutely are subject to change drastically.

Here’s my first complete one:


If it’s hard to see, this is where I have them placed:

S: Baraka, Kenshi, Cage, Raiden

A+: Shang, Ashrah, Liu Kang, Mileena, Kung Lao, Havik, Sindel, Reiko, Geras

A: Tanya, Rain, Reptile, Scorpion, Kitana, Li Mei

B: Smoke, General Shao, Nitara

C: Sub-Zero

 

[SaltShaker]

I definitely agree with what a lot have said, as well as some top players like F0xy that the tier lists are gonna come down to characters paired with Kameos. And perhaps even listing the same character multiple times based on their Kameo. But I’m definitely nowhere near prepared to make an early list on that. But I can make an early regular tier list! Please keep in mind, the game has only been out for a bit over 2 weeks or so. So these tier lists are just what people are feeling at the time. So they absolutely are subject to change drastically.

Here’s my first complete one:
View attachment 21135

If it’s hard to see, this is where I have them placed:

S: Baraka, Kenshi, Cage, Raiden

A+: Shang, Ashrah, Liu Kang, Mileena, Kung Lao, Havik, Sindel, Reiko, Geras

A: Tanya, Rain, Reptile, Scorpion, Kitana, Li Mei

B: Smoke, General Shao, Nitara

C: Sub-Zero

Wow. It's pretty wild to see that you have literally 99% of the same list that I do. Even down to the order placement wow what are the odds LOL. The only true differences are that I have Sindel near the Top of A+ and Liu at the Top of A. Everything else is the same haha.