Can we talk about NRS' "support"?

[xRantex]

Yup as I said only people that defend this game are losers that embrace the krushing blow mechanic and If this game was made for casuals doesn't mean it needs game breaking mechanics in order to sell well. It's gonna sell regardless cause of nostalgia that's what the millions of casuals bought it for now they need to make sure it plays right for competitive players. Ed boon seemed like he cared when mk9 first appeared at Evo. He even attended the tournament in 2012. Idk what changed. It's fine if they flat out don't care no more then I just won't waste my time on playing cause mk11 is an insult to competitive players that's been playing for years.

 

[craftycheese]

Yup as I said only people that defend this game are losers that embrace the krushing blow mechanic and If this game was made for casuals doesn't mean it needs game breaking mechanics in order to sell well. It's gonna sell regardless cause of nostalgia that's what the millions of casuals bought it for now they need to make sure it plays right for competitive players. Ed boon seemed like he cared when mk9 first appeared at Evo. He even attended the tournament in 2012. Idk what changed. It's fine if they flat out don't care no more then I just won't waste my time on playing cause mk11 is an insult to competitive players that's been playing for years.

Fuck me, I bit on your trolling. But dude, I can't just like the game and defend a game I like? I have to be a loser? Maybe your a loser for not liking the game, or krushing blows ever think about that? Maybe only loser's defend MKX because they can't play a game that does not reward just rushing in a doing 50/50s.

I don't believe anyone is a loser for liking or defending a game they like and really wish this line thinking would just go away

 

[xRantex]

Fuck me, I bit on your trolling. But dude, I can't just like the game and defend a game I like? I have to be a loser? Maybe your a loser for not liking the game, or krushing blows ever think about that? Maybe only loser's defend MKX because they can't play a game that does not reward just rushing in a doing 50/50s.

I don't believe anyone is a loser for liking or defending a game they like and really wish this line thinking would just go away

So does that make everyone else here a loser for not liking it? Lmao I can show u if I'm a loser or not. I said what I said

No I haven't thought about that and never will because everyone else here seem to agree and yeah 3 hits that leads to a krushing blow and lose 40% of my health is the dumbest sh*t I've seen in the past 15 years in a fighting game especially when it's not balanced throughout the cast. If u like krushing blows you're a loser.

I'm actually doing pretty great as a Raiden main with no legit krushing blows in my arsenal and still whoop y'all butt. Nrs can kiss my behind for all I care worst mk game ever. I only play for Raiden (who started off terrible and still not that great) if he wasn't in the game I woulda been moved on.

 

[Immortal]

Most of those "MILLIONS" of casual players who have purchased Mortal Kombat 11 would have also purchased another Kombat Pack that included more characters, more stages, and more story line content. Nobody is talking about only releasing a patch or hotfix that only affects a couple of thousand players who play the game competitively. The fact is that Kombat Pack 3 would have sold and turned a profit among casual and competitive players alike.

Dave... please... You have very limited idea how gaming industry works for years now. I've already explained that in another post, please read and stop with out of (business) reality takes. We did extensive market research and have enough experience with our own games to now to simply know that what you're talking about makes 0 sense in terms of profits.

From my previous post:

1. Time vs profit is always the most important

Long time support with DLC gives you dimishing returns and those decline pretty fast as time passes. In our market research based on our own games - DLC released within 3 months from game premiere is bought by 55-60% players who bought the base game but once you hit 1 year it drops to like 20-25%. Now to make a DLC of lets say 4 characters + some stages, costumes it roughly takes a big studio 5 months in total and on the flip side youre charging for DLC like 1/3rd of the base game price. So you "wasted" 5 months of studio time which is roughly 20% of total time you need to make whole new game to gain around (less) 8-10% profits which base game provided and that's only for the 1st DLC, its significantly lower for the next one and so on. So while your profits are getting lower over time your labor (people) cost is constant (or even getting higher) and we're talking here about paying around 350 people in our studio (NRS has probably less), so it gets pretty crazy, pretty quickly. This is also a reason why you think/plan and sometimes do your DLC even before the game is released (but it gets crazy extremely fast with crunch time, the multitasking is insane).

Speaking of turning a profit, I understand that every fighting game company, not just NRS, is a business that is attempting to do the same. Nobody is expected to work ten hour shifts for free or for the benefits of the FGC. Labor has and should always have a price tag. Speaking of labor now, if people are concerned about NRS, which is owned and operated by Warner Bros whose net worth is $6 billion according to Google, exploiting or overworking its staff, they should lambaste the company instead of making excuses because they like Mortal Kombat 11.

Indeed, the online apologia on behalf of Warner Bros. and NRS must stop, particularly when their prominent competitors, namely Nintendo, Capcom, and Namco, communicate regularly with their respective fan base and exhibit a superior balance of pleasing both the casual and competitive players while turning a profit. Perhaps Capcom, another multi billion dollar company not unlike Warner Bros., has set the best standard. They stated that the development of the new project has been delayed but that more content would be released for Street Fighter 5, a season 5 that features five DLC characters, with three yet to be released, and the incorporation of a major gameplay mechanic.

In the meantime, Ed Boon had been trolling and teasing fans on Twitter about more content, and when fans became excited, he called them entitled.

Keep the excuses coming, though.

Stop using Japanese companies as examples that makes 0 sense for this business. Japanese companies while also focused on profits are way more players oriented, tradition is a big thing for them also human values like honor etc... is a big thing there. That's not how western corporation works. Never did and never will be. Also Capcom almost went bankrupt over Street Fighter V just something to keep in mind.

Please understand from profit standpoint its WAY BETTER to make new game every 2-2,5 years then long time support with DLC over lets say 5 even longer. Why would ATT/WE even consider Japanese companies bussines model when their own turns WAY BIGGER profit? It makes 0 sense. Please do seperate feelings from bussines reality otherwise you get a distorted picture of it.

There is no excuses, there is just bussines and money and if like or don't like what are they doing with MK/INJ/X games it doesn't matter as long as it turns them big profits it will never change. There is no debate here.

I think the only people that have no problem with this game is losers that embrace the krushing blow mechanic any real fighting game player can see it's flaws from a mile away.

Please stop caling people losers coz they don't share yours or anybody else point of view. Caling names is not allowed on this site as far as i know (@Juggs @RoboCop) and it makes you look like an ..... There are many people who like MK 11 and that is fine. You really can make your point in a polite manner.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

Yup, let's keep this a civil discussion. No one is a "loser" for liking or disliking the game. Infractions will be given out to users who are unable to express their opinions without insulting other users.

 

[molambo]

Dave... please... You have very limited idea how gaming industry works for years now. I've already explained that in another post, please read and stop with out of (business) reality takes. We did extensive market research and have enough experience with our own games to now to simply know that what you're talking

thats a very narrow view on the topic. i am not sure what kind of game you worked for but i doubt this topic can be generalized without to see what kind of dlc is released, what they charge for it etc. on top of that it implies that literally everyone of the team works on said dlc content which, especially when a new game is in the making at the same time cant be true.

do i believe dlc milking is worth it for nrs...no. but thats alone due the content which is neccessary for a single char compared to other fighting games.
capcom and bandai namco make money with theire dlc model, especially capcom. lot of the stuff they release is outsourced which is a huge factor in term of cost efficiency.

 

[Immortal]

thats a very narrow view on the topic. i am not sure what kind of game you worked for but i doubt this topic can be generalized without to see what kind of dlc is released, what they charge for it etc. on top of that it implies that literally everyone of the team works on said dlc content which, especially when a new game is in the making at the same time cant be true.

do i believe dlc milking is worth it for nrs...no. but thats alone due the content which is neccessary for a single char compared to other fighting games.
capcom and bandai namco make money with theire dlc model, especially capcom. lot of the stuff they release is outsourced which is a huge factor in term of cost efficiency.

My post here was a simplification, and what you see above is also like a half of my post on that topic (several pages back), where i also stated that you can write a master thesis and you still wouldn't cover all the reasons but the first and the most important is the one i copy pasted here from my previous post. As for the games i worked on, the most well known would be The Witcher series.

And no, not every department is included in making a DLC and most of those who are dont do it at the same time, however when you're talking 2 years development cycle per a game (which is insane in itself) schedule is INSANE, you're pretty much always late and crunch time (6 months before release) is brutal. Multitasking while not impossible would certainly coz some delay to your main project which brigns us to back to the most important reason - is it worth it? The answer is resounding NO. It is MUCH more profitable to make a new game then work on DLC for the "old" one. Like seriously if you strip this to bare bones; in gaming industry it always comes down to "what makes you the most money in the least of time" and you go from there, always especialy if you work for any corporation, this is the only mindset.

 

[trufenix]

Did anyone say MK11 wasn’t a financial success? Anyone?

Did anyone say MK11 wasn't a success by literally any measure? Anything tangible at all? sales, popularity, review scores, youtube videos, tournament partipation, online players, fucking anything at all? Anyone?

...crickets....

 

[trufenix]

And yet they dont have enough time and resources to patch shit thats been busted since day 1 apparently

It may shock you to learn this but developers are ordinary fallible human beings too, and not magical code machines that can read your thoughts. They may

a) like it the way it is
b) not know how
c) think its funny watching you rage about johnny cage hit boxes for the last 10 years, lol.

 

[trufenix]

It was doomed from the get-go:

‘Mortal Kombat 11’ Game Devs Allege Toxic Work Conditions at Warner Bros. Interactive’s NetherRealm

That article came out like 11 million copies of MK11 ago, lol. I guess it was doomed to be a gigantic financial success.

Doomed was Marvel vs Capcom Infinite:

Is Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite Doomed?

2017 was a rough year for Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite. Mired by critics and fans for its sub-par visuals, a short roster sorely lacking in power, and a gameplay shift to 2v2 combat that was perceiv…

inthirdperson.com

Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite flops

Capcom's video game business had a strong quarter, despite crossover fighting game Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite flopping …

www.eurogamer.net

In a press release reporting the financial results for the nine months ending 31st December 2017, Capcom confirmed Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite had sold one million copies since its September launch. The company had projected sales of two million.

 

[M2Dave]

Dave... please... You have very limited idea how gaming industry works for years now. I've already explained that in another post, please read and stop with out of (business) reality takes.

You are still reciting your resume? I am comparing NRS to their competitors and explaining how they lack basic communication skills. Please read and stop with out of (common sense) reality takes.

"NRS game development needs a shakeup. Most other fighting game companies (i.e., Capcom, Namco, Nitendo, Reverge Labs, etc.) support their games and communicate with their respective communities. Most recently, for example, Masahiro Sakurai explained how Kazuya would play in Smash Bros. Ultimate in a 40 minute video and stated that the game would have one more DLC character. On "Harada's Bar", Harada said that "Tekken 7 has gone on long enough", but that the game is still selling well to the extent that releasing Tekken 8 at this moment would not make much sense financially. Capcom released an unannounced balance patch not too long ago. Etc.

NRS, on the other hand, waited eight months to report that additional content and patch/hotfix support for Mortal Kombat 11 would cease. In the meantime, the executive producer trolled and teased fans on Twitter, even calling them "entitled". I do not have to have any experience in the gaming industry to identify this behavior as unprofessional at best and other explicit adjectives at worst."

 

[xWildx]

Did anyone say MK11 wasn't a success by literally any measure? Anything tangible at all? sales, popularity, review scores, youtube videos, tournament partipation, online players, fucking anything at all? Anyone?

I mean…. you implied as much with your needlessly inflammatory post, so…

Cheers.

 

[Wigy]

It may shock you to learn this but developers are ordinary fallible human beings too, and not magical code machines that can read your thoughts. They may

a) like it the way it is
b) not know how
c) think its funny watching you rage about johnny cage hit boxes for the last 10 years, lol.

I cant remember the last time ive even discussed cage nevermind his hitboxes. Dont remember doing it even in mkx even (though i defo shitposted and downplayed him) and defo didnt on mk11 lol. You sure you got the right guy?

All of those may be true. Thats just my opinion. Not sure why your panties are in such a bunch.

 

[Immortal]

You are still reciting your resume? I am comparing NRS to their competitors and explaining how they lack basic communication skills. Please read and stop with out of (common sense) reality takes.

"NRS game development needs a shakeup. Most other fighting game companies (i.e., Capcom, Namco, Nitendo, Reverge Labs, etc.) support their games and communicate with their respective communities. Most recently, for example, Masahiro Sakurai explained how Kazuya would play in Smash Bros. Ultimate in a 40 minute video and stated that the game would have one more DLC character. On "Harada's Bar", Harada said that "Tekken 7 has gone on long enough", but that the game is still selling well to the extent that releasing Tekken 8 at this moment would not make much sense financially. Capcom released an unannounced balance patch not too long ago. Etc.

NRS, on the other hand, waited eight months to report that additional content and patch/hotfix support for Mortal Kombat 11 would cease. In the meantime, the executive producer trolled and teased fans on Twitter, even calling them "entitled". I do not have to have any experience in the gaming industry to identify this behavior as unprofessional at best and other explicit adjectives at worst."

Let me put it simply then - the shake up you think they need, will never happen.

The only way it would ever happen is either by NRS being bought up by another company with lets say different values or if sudenly millions of people stop buying their games..... and going by MK X and MK 11 sale numbers that's very, very unlikely.

Also i don't recite my resume in a way you implied neither was it my intention, he said something like "what games did i work on" so i answered and im done. As for "using" my knowledge of the industry, its only natural to talk about things you have in depth, first hand knowledge. Doesn't make me any better then anybody, just more knowledgeable in that particular topic and as far as i remember you never worked in the gaming industry (you are a teacher? I honestly don't remember, it's been a while).

You seem really bitter towards NRS like really, really bitter, towards the choices they made, the way the NRS competitive community is for years now (SonicFox and all of his friends aka "new generation" of MK/INJ top players etc..) and it seems like you need to let out your frustration with NRS/WB/MK wherever (here, podcast) you can but of course i can be wrong, that's just the impression i got from you in recent years.

 

[M2Dave]

Let me put it simply then - the shake up you think they need, will never happen.

I agree. No shake up has to happen considering the quantity of copies that are sold every two years. Nonetheless, Warner Bros. and NRS are not exempt from criticism, particularly in comparison to their competitors, who produce high quality fighting games that last far longer than two years. Many of us have the same expectations for Mortal Kombat, especially when the developers claimed that they would support the game for a longer period of time.

As far as bitterness is concerned, the majority of the NRS community is bitter about Mortal Kombat 11 for various legitimate reasons. Perhaps you have a difficult time accepting this fact more so than I have the (imaginary) frustrations that you have listed. The reality is that people dislike being lied to, trolled, and ignored. I doubt that you need a bachelor's degree in game design to understand why many casual as well as competitive players have been pissed off at NRS for the past eight months.

 

[Immortal]

I agree. No shake up has to happen considering the quantity of copies that are sold every two years. Nonetheless, Warner Bros. and NRS are not exempt from criticism, particularly in comparison to their competitors, who produce high quality fighting games that last far longer than two years. Many of us have the same expectations for Mortal Kombat, especially when the developers claimed that they would support the game for a longer period of time.

I agree that no company should be exempted from criticism.

As far as bitterness is concerned, the majority of the NRS community is bitter about Mortal Kombat 11 for various legitimate reasons. Perhaps you have a difficult time accepting this fact more so than I have the (imaginary) frustrations that you have listed. The reality is that people dislike being lied to, trolled, and ignored. I doubt that you need a bachelor's degree in game design to understand why many casual as well as competitive players have been pissed off at NRS for the past eight months.

Just to be clear i don't like Mortal Kombat 11 for various reasons and i didn't really like MK XL for other reasons but i have nothing against people who like any of those games. Everybody are entitled to their opinion. Also im not saying that lying to your players is okay; it isn't.

That being said i think you vastly overestimate the number of "pissed casual players" in grand scheme of things. People who are unhappy for any reason usually scream the laudest but people who are happy or just dont care either way usually just dont say a thing. I think the real casuals, i mean those millions on top of millions casuals for who WB/NRS makes their games didn't play MK 11 for year now or even more and they couldn't care less about long time support since they moved on like a month after MK 11 premiere to another game; some of them returned for the story expansion DLC played for a week and moved to another game again.

They were happy with it, they gonna buy MK 12 in a blink of the eye and imo like i said for those people NRS/WB make games and been making games for years now and that is why with every new MK game they sell even more copies of the game and i think with MK 12 they again gonna sell even more.

 

[theotherguy]

As far as bitterness is concerned, the majority of the NRS community is bitter about Mortal Kombat 11 for various legitimate reasons.

I think the NRS community seriously overstates their sway in what and why NRS actually does what they do. That's not to say there haven't been any valid criticisms as well.

The few people that frequent sites like this, make high level content or organise tournaments pale into insignificance compared to the casuals that make up the other 11.5million sales.

Tombrady's latest rant about the Injustice2 update having ads for MK11, a game no longer being officially supported, shows exactly this. His rant is completely irrelevant because the target audience for those ads aren't for the NRS community players who've already bought, played and long since dropped the game. The ads are for the casuals that may have picked up Injustice2 late and giving them a push into other NRS games. These are the guys that don't care that the game is no longer supported, so long as they can play the story mode, single player content and bash out a few online games. To me, that video shows just how much the community over-emphasises their importance, and that every little thing must be done just to cater to them.

NEWSFLASH!!! not everything is about you!

I could be wrong here, but i'm pretty confident in saying that if everyone here that identifies as part of the NRS community doesn't buy the next NRS game, it's still going to sell a shitload.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

I don't think Ed Boon is some kind of evil mastermind that fucks with us for the fuck of it.
I bet him and the team would've wanted to support MK11 longer and even planned for it. No way does he say just before the Mileena release that they're not even close to being done supporting the game, then go radio silent until now when it wasn't that way.

I bet WB just pulled the plug and they can't openly shit on them because they're not biting the hand that feeds.

 

[Ashesfall]

So creating a "new" game from the ground up and selling it for 60-70$ is the only real good way to make BIG money these days? ...
(Engine, Balance, Story, 25+ characters, Practice mode, single player content, online environment, tutorials, ...)

But releasing a "DLC" pack with 5 characters for ~25$ is not a way to make big money?
(With crazy good advertising arguments like Terminator, Joker, Spawn ...)
Or how about increasing your player base to get more people to buy microtransactions?
Sadly the way where the big money comes in for a company these days ...
(I hate microtransactions to a point I might not play your game - MK11 tried it but failed, the store in this game is a joke. Sitting on 15k crystals missing some "content" and cant buy it because the options in the shop are extremely limited. I am sure their next title will go big on microtransactions for even more $$$ ...)

WB is in my eyes after MK11 a greedy shit company. (after MKX and the rollback netcode, I really thought differently because this was not even necessary they could have waited for injustice 2 to "buff" netplay - players bought the game so what ever if the netcode is good right? ... Just watch how they handle PC costumers, they spit on you and we should be happy, never ask for a change because "business model" ... but dont cry if you create real "haters" in return ... I am watching at you cyberpunk2077 and the source code incident ... - lying piece of ... people wont forget, but who needs a good reputation right? the future will tell you ...)

Main Game $$$ DLC $$$ Microtransaction $$$
They try hard to squeeze their playerbase.

If I buy the next NRS game, I will do it like I did with injustice 2, waiting for the final version waiting for a discount and buying it at a key-store. (Their story mode is really good and checking out fighters in practice mode is still fun to me ...) Unless the Marvel rumor is true and The Punisher is in the base roster, this could actually make me buy "early". (He should be in an MK game tho ... but Rambo fits that role, kinda)

If "we" competitive players in a vs game are just "nothing", let me support your company with "nothing" (bare minimum) ...

--- I am just sad MK11 is "done", that's it ...

PS: Anyway, this world has way bigger issues now ... #censored

 

[trufenix]

I mean…. you implied as much with your needlessly inflammatory post, so…

Cheers.

So, you don't have anything? And I have 12 million in sales? I think I win, right? MK is a success in every way?

 

[trufenix]

I cant remember the last time ive even discussed cage nevermind his hitboxes. Dont remember doing it even in mkx even (though i defo shitposted and downplayed him) and defo didnt on mk11 lol. You sure you got the right guy?

All of those may be true. Thats just my opinion. Not sure why your panties are in such a bunch.

I gave you the three most logical conclusions to your statement, you neglected to answer, defended unspecified bad behavior and brought my panties into it. I definitely got the right guy.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

Please keep this discussion civil and avoid personally attacking other users. We have begun infracting for toxic or antagonistic behavior. It's possible to disagree with someone without attacking them. I've seen it! So please, be nice.

 

[xRantex]

This thread needs to die already lol like who cares? Some think the game support is bad others think it's good and it's no convincing people or they are trolling so whatever. I know this is the worst mk game of all time and that's all that matters to me.

Raiden is the only good thing about it for me. And his teleport is not a base move like scorpions etc it's pretty clear they wanted him to not be all that but whatever. He looks amazing and has some great advancing normals so I only play for him.

 

[xRantex]

I agree with everything m2dave said btw.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

And his teleport is not a base move like scorpions etc it's pretty clear they wanted him to not be all that but whatever

I mean, it wasn't base in MKX either. It was only available in Displacer iirc.