MK 11: Passive Meter Analysis

[Marinjuana]

Seems like an afterthought considering the game is meant to be slow paced and neutral focused. You have single use launching Krushing Blows, but the opponent almost always has the meter to break out of it.

If you believe the game is meant to be neutral focused, why would you describe a mechanic that creates more opportunities for neutral as an afterthought?

There's also big damage discrepancies across different characters and variations in this game and breakaway helps even that out. Maybe no breakaway would be great for a Shao Khan but what about a Jade?

Also consider Scorpion combo paths, having access to unbreakable damage with spear but getting better damage with teleport. Some KBs launch but more probably do chunk damage. And in those that launch we can have stuff like Shang's B1D2 KB where the BnB uses D2 so you get solid unbreakable damage even with break. Stuff like that is designed around breakaway.

 

[Marlow]

You have single use launching Krushing Blows, but the opponent almost always has the meter to break out of it.

Why not just wait to trigger a KB until the opponent doesn't have defensive meter to breakaway? Or use an armor breaker? Or just take the KB and now you know that the next the oppoonent has limited wakeup options for the next 10-20 seconds, and if you launch them they can't breakaway?

I think the breakaway mechanic is far from perfect, but it's not like you don't have options.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

Fast, OP projectiles like onion rings, etc, should take a really long time to regenerate meter. That would fix the annoying zoning part of it.
Ultimately I do like the idea of earning meter rather than it coming back passively.

 

[Pyrosis]

I'm not certain on this by any means. But if the meter generation was changed to a more traditional building on hit or being hit generation, any character who has a meterless launcher immediately becomes top tier.

 

[Obly]

The only thing I clearly learned from Tom's video is that Sonya mains are getting screwed over with that health nerf. They really should undo that now that it's very clear she isn't top tier.

Seriously tho, I usually agree with Mr. Brady but in this case, nah, I don't think the game would be more balanced by having a traditional meter building system. It's far from perfect, but it doesn't even make a top 5 list of issues that are real problems for the game.

It's ironic really that you hear so many complaints about how MK11 is too slow-paced and boring, and yet in the same breath, a lot of folks say the game would somehow be better if: (1) you frequently had to stop attacking your opponent in order to hang out in the corner whiffing specials to build meter; and (2) you had to devote at least as much mental energy to task of building and managing meter as you do the actual game of attacking and defending against your opponent.

I get why people think that kind of thing is needed to prove that you're a "better player", but I disagree; it really just proves that you're good at multi-tasking. It's an interesting challenge, but less interesting than actually fighting (in a fighting game, no less).

All that said, I definitely agree some moves should have a higher cost and much slower meter regen. Jacqui and Cetrion should both get tweaked pretty hard in that regard. But they're the two extremes; I can't think of any other character whose game play is so clearly (and a bit unfairly) boosted by passive regen. But they'd both have a heavy advantage with a traditional meter system as well. They're just overtuned characters; they alone don't prove that the auto-meter system is flawed.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

The only thing I clearly learned from Tom's video is that Sonya mains are getting screwed over with that health nerf. They really should undo that now that it's very clear she isn't top tier.

Pretty sure NRS completely forgot about health changes. Case in point Kotal does not need 10% extra

 

[Obly]

Pretty sure NRS completely forgot about health changes. Case in point Kotal does not need 10% extra

Yeah, totally agree with this. I almost mentioned Kotal, as the polar opposite of Sonya--a character who should lose his health buff now that he clearly doesn't need it.

 

[TheJaxLife]

I actually think the regenerating meter was a neat experiment and, for a first try, was more successful than not. I don't miss living battery characters like Kabal in MK 9 and Mileena in MK X.

It's far from perfect but I just can't call it an unmitigated disaster. I think some more in depth tweaks could make it really shine.

I've talked with some friends about an idea where the more you used the defensive options the slower it regenerates and blocked/whiffed amped moves cause a slower regen.

A little bit more meter management and thought required to how and when you use it and I would honestly be 100% fine with this system returning.

 

[Vhozite]

I didn’t like the regenning meter at first but it has grown on me a bit. It’s one of the few things that balances passive vs aggressive play, where as in other games you basically are forced to always be doing something if you want meter. In MK11 you can focus on taking actions (or not ) based purely on the game state between you and the opponent.

What I don’t like is the separate offensive and defensive bars. Having separate meters just sets the bar too low for resource management. I think it’s dumb that I can roll away from an opponents meaty then also burn meter on the full combo punish.

Slightly related, but I also think FB needs to have some kind of meter cost. It’s dumb that I can dumpster someone for 400+ unbreakable damage for no cost other than getting my ass beat.

 

[grandabx]

I wonder if they could keep the separate meter idea, but incorporate that into the meter build system. Blocking/taking damage could build your defensive meter, while using special moves or dealing chip damage could build offensive bar.

Overall though the hard thing is however you decide to implement meter into a game it's going to create balance issues and gameplay issues.

That's a very good idea. Player's would be rewarded for doing the right action(s) for their respective meters.

That's exactly how good neutral is created.

 

[grandabx]

The only thing I clearly learned from Tom's video is that Sonya mains are getting screwed over with that health nerf. They really should undo that now that it's very clear she isn't top tier.

Seriously tho, I usually agree with Mr. Brady but in this case, nah, I don't think the game would be more balanced by having a traditional meter building system. It's far from perfect, but it doesn't even make a top 5 list of issues that are real problems for the game.

It's ironic really that you hear so many complaints about how MK11 is too slow-paced and boring, and yet in the same breath, a lot of folks say the game would somehow be better if: (1) you frequently had to stop attacking your opponent in order to hang out in the corner whiffing specials to build meter; and (2) you had to devote at least as much mental energy to task of building and managing meter as you do the actual game of attacking and defending against your opponent.

I get why people think that kind of thing is needed to prove that you're a "better player", but I disagree; it really just proves that you're good at multi-tasking. It's an interesting challenge, but less interesting than actually fighting (in a fighting game, no less).

All that said, I definitely agree some moves should have a higher cost and much slower meter regen. Jacqui and Cetrion should both get tweaked pretty hard in that regard. But they're the two extremes; I can't think of any other character whose game play is so clearly (and a bit unfairly) boosted by passive regen. But they'd both have a heavy advantage with a traditional meter system as well. They're just overtuned characters; they alone don't prove that the auto-meter system is flawed.

You don't think good meter management is a defining element of "fighting" in a well-designed fighting game?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but going by the bolded statement above, you don't feel players should have to earn the use of better attacks, damage and offensive/defensive positioning?

I mean, the meter goes away for a reason. What reason do you think that is?

Why lose meter at all if it just hinders the "fighting"?

Street Fighter 3's whiffing and gaining meter was a mistake the developers even mentioned in an interview. They said it made the risk vs reward passive, which diminished neutral balance.

Translation: Something for basically nothing (whiffing low risk attacks).

 

[Savage8-8]

The auto regen meter mechanic is solid. It completely resolved the whole "this character sucks without meter" and "my character has good moves but can't build meter" issues. Now everyone has the same resources and you are forced to make reads. Yeah your opponent didn't "earn" their meter but neither did you. It's up to you now to not to lose neutral.

I feel like alot of the complaints in this thread don't have anything to do with the regen meter and more to do with the defensive options (breakaway, roll, etc.).

 

[scrubjesus111]

Reworking meter could also be a way of balancing risk/reward issues in this game, for ex. if:
-offensive meter regens slower (defensive already regens slow enough imo)
-you build a fraction (like 1/5 bar) of meter by anti-airing or flawless blocking jumping attacks, punishing rolls, throw teching
-and to help with the back-walk, passive play issue, maybe meter also regens slightly as you walk or dash forward like in Dragonball FighterZ

So you’d have less passive regen, and balance and game flow is improved.

Meter building should reward the right things, improving game balance and game flow. In Injustice you’d build it by spamming specials which is garbage

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Might be more useful for people to view the meter system for what it actually is; a cooldown system.
Managing your cooldowns is a thing in games.

 

[Vhozite]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but going by the bolded statement above, you don't feel players should have to earn the use of better attacks, damage and offensive/defensive positioning?

Not the other guy, but my take on this is that I don’t much care who earns what if there is still some kind of cost involved. If someone walks into my store a buys a dollar bag of chips I don’t give a damn where they got the money as long as they pay. My mentality for FGs is similar.

Earning something is just a cost (usually time) attached to the beginning of a process instead of the end. I don’t much care when the opponent pays up as long as they eventually do. How minus are you on block, did you give up good position, what options did you lose access to for burning that bar, etc?

I don’t necessarily care about “earning it”, but I do think MK11 often falls into the trap of things having too low of a cost overall because they backend cost isn’t higher to adjust for the low front end cost.

 

[scrubjesus111]

@Trustful_Whale Who says meter has to have a single function? Meter has potential to do more than one thing and historically it has in most fighting games. Dbfz, as I mentioned, incentivizes offense by rewarding meter for forward movement.

Imagine a Kabal player is incessantly abusing that gas jump move, but then realizes he’s helping you gain meter as you flawless block his attacks (or whatever the build condition would be) - then he’ll stop doing it so mindlessly. Same w Jacqui’s bionic leap.

It could open up a lot of options for balancing the game and encouraging/discouraging certain play styles

 

[Obly]

You don't think good meter management is a defining element of "fighting" in a well-designed fighting game?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but going by the bolded statement above, you don't feel players should have to earn the use of better attacks, damage and offensive/defensive positioning?

I mean, the meter goes away for a reason. What reason do you think that is?

Why lose meter at all if it just hinders the "fighting"?

Street Fighter 3's whiffing and gaining meter was a mistake the developers even mentioned in an interview. They said it made the risk vs reward passive, which diminished neutral balance.

Translation: Something for basically nothing (whiffing low risk attacks).

Yeah, you're misconstruing the point. Going by what else I said ("some moves should have a higher cost and much slower meter regen"), obviously I don't think EX moves should be free. That would be a terrible FG; not at all what I was saying.

I was only talking about building meter, not spending it. I think we all agree, how you spend meter is a central part of tactical decision-making. How do I best use my resources to gain an advantage now but not be at a disadvantage later? What trade-offs maximize my overall game play? It's a fun challenge that is part and parcel of the "fighting."

On the other hand, traditional meter building means learning how to deal with an arbitrary set of rules that dictate which in-game actions earn you meter and which don't. You can't think just about attack and defense; you also have to constantly think about how to game the system while you attack and defend. The incessant demand to build meter forces you to sometimes make moves that actually aren't in your tactical interest, or otherwise just leads to disconnected, boring, and unbalanced game play.

This isn't some old Street Fighter thing. Whiffing specials to gain meter was a part of NRS games as recently as Injustice 2. Just think about some of the rules in that game:

• You don't build meter in the neutral. The game punishes you for trying to play patient footsies. You constantly have to be doing something, even if it's not in your best tactical interest or is just a silly distraction.
• You build more meter for using specials than normal buttons and strings. So again, you don't get to plan your attack just based on what gives you the best positioning, frame advantage, setup, etc., because you're forced to keep throwing out specials just to get resources.
• You build more meter for getting hit than for blocking an attack. The game punishes you for having good defense. Actually it punishes you for trying to play defensively at all; you're forced to attack, attack, attack all the time. And as the attacker, you're actually helping the opponent and hurting yourself by landing hits.

MK11's passive meter regen needs more tweaking, but it's fundamentally a more sensible system. Focus on attack and defense without worrying about arbitrary rules. Play whatever style (offensive, defensive) best fits the moment and your own liking. Use whatever moves you want, when you want. Focus on fighting, not working the meter-building system.

And for the most part, it's more balanced too. No one has a crazy meter-building advantage or disadvantage just because of their particular move set. Yeah, Jacqui and Cetrion get to game the system a bit (they can tie you up longer with long block strings or keepaway), but that wouldn't be too hard to fix.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

@Trustful_Whale Who says meter has to have a single function? Meter has potential to do more than one thing and historically it has in most fighting games. Dbfz, as I mentioned, incentivizes offense by rewarding meter for forward movement.

Imagine a Kabal player is incessantly abusing that gas jump move, but then realizes he’s helping you gain meter as you flawless block his attacks (or whatever the build condition would be) - then he’ll stop doing it so mindlessly. Same w Jacqui’s bionic leap.

It could open up a lot of options for balancing the game and encouraging/discouraging certain play styles

Not sure why this is being said to me, but I agree that meter doesn't have to only do one thing. Guilty Gear has one of the best meter systems in fighting games and it governs just about every powerful universal tool in the game, and also rewards forward movement and penalizes running away. DBZ borrows a lot of this for obvious reason.

Also, GG has imo the most well designed combo breaker next to Killer Instinct and MK should have just copied it.

 

[scrubjesus111]

@Obly I agree meter was awful in Injustice 2. Imo meter building would work best as a disincentive for abusing a move or mechanic that’s otherwise hard to balance. Imagine in Injustice 3 there’s passive regen and spamming projectiles could result in your opponent gaining extra meter if they flawless block the projectiles. Meter could reward skilled defense and discourage predictable offense

 

[grandabx]

The auto regen meter mechanic is solid. It completely resolved the whole "this character sucks without meter" and "my character has good moves but can't build meter" issues. Now everyone has the same resources and you are forced to make reads. Yeah your opponent didn't "earn" their meter but neither did you. It's up to you now to not to lose neutral.

I feel like alot of the complaints in this thread don't have anything to do with the regen meter and more to do with the defensive options (breakaway, roll, etc.).

That's a problem with character design, not how meter is gained.

Risk vs reward is unbalanced because players can have their cake and eat it too.

You can be waaay more wreckless with meter because you don't have to put in any effort to obtain it. It's similar to blocked D2 in wreckless use.

Both players having the same thing doesn't change the above statement. The benefit of being allowed to be passive and wreckless in neutral is not something to be proud of.

It's the equivalent of being placed right where you died at in a game. Casualizing at its fimest.

Meter used to be valuable, now it's creeping into Fortnite's level of instant-gratification.

You can just make so many mistkes with meter and the hand-holding will just make sure that player doesn't suffer too much. It even regenerates between rounds. Fatal Blow regens on block/whiff, don't worry, try again.

Risk vs reward balance is at an all-time low in this game. A digital participation award for all players.

 

[Jbog]

Movement based meter regen would be tough with the wif punish meta but projectiles slowing down meter regen would be really nice on nrs games. The walk back zoning strategy has been very powerful in all nrs titles for lot of games straight

 

[grandabx]

Might be more useful for people to view the meter system for what it actually is; a cooldown system.
Managing your cooldowns is a thing in games.

So You calling MK 11 Halo/Uncharted now? Ok, I can dig it. Just duck behind that wall over there and wait it out (back in the action in no time). Because there's no other mainstream fighter with general meter regeneration.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

So You calling MK 11 Halo/Uncharted now? Ok, I can dig it. Just duck behind that wall over there and wait it out (back in the action in no time). Because there's no other mainstream fighter with general meter regeneration.

Out of all the pvp games with cooldown strategy you choose to strawman me with Halo and Uncharted.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Out of all the pvp games with cooldown strategy you choose to strawman me with Halo and Uncharted.

Not to mention games like Injustice, Injustice 2 and MKX with traits, stamina, etc.

 

[Savage8-8]

That's a problem with character design, not how meter is gained.

Risk vs reward is unbalanced because players can have their cake and eat it too.

You can be waaay more wreckless with meter because you don't have to put in any effort to obtain it. It's similar to blocked D2 in wreckless use.

Both players having the same thing doesn't change the above statement. The benefit of being allowed to be passive and wreckless in neutral is not something to be proud of.

It's the equivalent of being placed right where you died at in a game. Casualizing at its fimest.

Meter used to be valuable, now it's creeping into Fortnite's level of instant-gratification.

You can just make so many mistkes with meter and the hand-holding will just make sure that player doesn't suffer too much. It even regenerates between rounds. Fatal Blow regens on block/whiff, don't worry, try again.

Risk vs reward balance is at an all-time low in this game. A digital participation award for all players.

Just bc you have the meter when you start doesn't mean there isn't risk when using it. Damn near everything that is worth using has risk. There isn't an issue of risk vs reward in MK11.

Wreckless players get their shit kicked in if they don't actually think about their decisions when using meter.

Fatal blow coming back and meter regeneration are 2 different things. Personally I believe FB should be 1 and done once used. But when it comes to meter you completely ignore the consequence of using it and it being read. In a real time situation it matters whether you have it or not. And you have to make sure you use it at the right time