Rain general discussion

[Wigy]

I'm not going to say it's trash, but I see that the AMP portion of the move will consistently whiff on crouch blocking opponents even at half screen (the sort of distance where you can expect a move like this to be used). I haven't tested this on OKI yet but I assume you're not just throwing this out point blank and I do agree that it catches jumps nicely. I simply wonder why the mid portion of such an attack has such a horrendous angle upwards. Idk if this is intentional or not. Or am I meant to cover that sort of distance with AMP Katar Toss instead?

Honestly put the opponent half screen and make them jump back as you use it. You’ll be shocked at the range.

I use it for oki when person is too far away to check with anything but f2.

People ALWAYS, neutral jump for me in that situation because f2 has a garbage aerial hitbox and its his only option.

Set yourself up at the right range it covers wakeups and jumping safely.

Also dont always need to MB it, at range and with a staggered second hit people aint moving in to check you after unless you’re point blank.

In matchups where people are desperately trying to get in its just a great check to any approach if you use it spaced appropriately.

maybe only works for mid level where im playing at- on paper seems legit though so dont know why people have written it off, half screen special with no hurtbox on a runaway variation

 

[Mandolore1123]

Honestly put the opponent half screen and make them jump back as you use it. You’ll be shocked at the range.

I use it for oki when person is too far away to check with anything but f2.

People ALWAYS, neutral jump for me in that situation because f2 has a garbage aerial hitbox and its his only option.

Set yourself up at the right range it covers wakeups and jumping safely.

Also dont always need to MB it, at range and with a staggered second hit people aint moving in to check you after unless you’re point blank.

In matchups where people are desperately trying to get in its just a great check to any approach if you use it spaced appropriately.

maybe only works for mid level where im playing at- on paper seems legit though so dont know why people have written it off though, half screen special with no hurtbox on a runaway variation

I'm no high level player. That's just my experience with using the grounded version. I still think it's somewhat legit, but purely to throw out against jumpers like you said. The best use is obviously the safe dive kick though. The air versions offer great mobility and the ability to counter zone quite well

 

[Mandolore1123]

Correct.

KB diving quantum slice into fatal blow deals the same damage as the canceled KB f+2,1+3 fatal blow combo. Unbreakable 45% damage, which is a lot better than doing a couple more percentage points with geyser palm.

Rift is a requirement in some match ups. I would not want to play characters like Cetrion, Robocop, or Sheeva without rift. The move also allows you to throw katars without trading projectiles.

But against certain characters, most notably Jacqui and Kung Lao, geyser palm is probably preferable, although you can absorb both Jacqui's grenade launcher and Kung Lao's buzzsaw.

I will have to try out rift then.

 

[Obly]

Neither the water ball nor the purple rain is worth two slots. The only move that would be worth two slots is the wave dash. LOL.

I will say though that water ball is definitely better than the one-slot moves. Even if you just look at hit confirms, it gives you a lot of flexibility: You can get a good amount of damage (more than geyser kick or palm), choose whether to change sides, extend to a two-bar combo, or restand if you prefer to pressure. And if you actually do land it full-screen, you can close the entire distance (and probably put your oppo in the corner) without having to get in yourself.

There's nothing bad about it, except that taking it kills Rain's already-limited zoning capability, which almost forces him to get in to get anything done against a smart opponent. If NRS would just change the input to let you pick water ball and keep katar toss, it would totally be worth two slots.

Purple pain I'm not sure about yet. Fujin gets the same kind of setups with pressure bomb, which only costs one slot. But pressure bomb has very limited range and Fujin is forced to spend meter to keep it from going away on block. Rain shouldn't get much better range and robustness on his setup for free. I think if NRS just shaved a bit off the recovery so that it was more practical, it would probably justify it being a two-slot move.

 

[Zviko]

Purple pain I'm not sure about yet. Fujin gets the same kind of setups with pressure bomb, which only costs one slot. But pressure bomb has very limited range and Fujin is forced to spend meter to keep it from going away on block. Rain shouldn't get much better range and robustness on his setup for free. I think if NRS just shaved a bit off the recovery so that it was more practical, it would probably justify it being a two-slot move.

Fujin's Pressure Bomb is night and day better than Rain's lightning. Yes Rain doesn't have to spend a bar for it to not go away but you can't even set up that thing. Everyone can dash or just walk out of it. You also don't get a combo from it and the damage you do before the setup uses 1 bar and it's less than Fujin's meterless combo before his setup which can also be meterless. Fujin can do almost 50% meterless if opponent guesses wrong. Rain barely gets over 30% with 2 bars.

 

[Obly]

Fujin's Pressure Bomb is night and day better than Rain's lightning. Yes Rain doesn't have to spend a bar for it to not go away but you can't even set up that thing. Everyone can dash or just walk out of it. You also don't get a combo from it and the damage you do before the setup uses 1 bar and it's less than Fujin's meterless combo before his setup which can also be meterless. Fujin can do almost 50% meterless if opponent guesses wrong. Rain barely gets over 30% with 2 bars.

Good point about the difference in damage potential; I wasn't thinking about that. Hopefully I'm not saying anything incorrect here (I somewhat know Fujin but not in-depth), but Fujin also has to take risks and make himself pretty unsafe to try to get that damage. In contrast, Rain is a lot safer and can get a lot of pressure without necessarily taking big risks. If I had to guess at NRS's reasoning, they may have looked at Rain's other (relatively) safe pressure tools (hydro boost, hydroplane, tidal wave) and figured that combining two of them with purple pain could make him an OD pressure monster who never lets you have a turn.

But yeah, I agree, purple pain just doesn't work well right now. If they shave some frames off the setup recovery and the actual lightning startup, it will probably be worth the two slots. That and Rain probably needs a small buff to damage scaling in general.

 

[DarksydeDash]

The only thing I hate about slice is it takes away the armor breaker and the corner carry. Plunge is such a good ender that it's hard to give up.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I will say though that water ball is definitely better than the one-slot moves. Even if you just look at hit confirms, it gives you a lot of flexibility: You can get a good amount of damage (more than geyser kick or palm), choose whether to change sides, extend to a two-bar combo, or restand if you prefer to pressure. And if you actually do land it full-screen, you can close the entire distance (and probably put your oppo in the corner) without having to get in yourself.

There's nothing bad about it, except that taking it kills Rain's already-limited zoning capability, which almost forces him to get in to get anything done against a smart opponent. If NRS would just change the input to let you pick water ball and keep katar toss, it would totally be worth two slots.

Purple pain I'm not sure about yet. Fujin gets the same kind of setups with pressure bomb, which only costs one slot. But pressure bomb has very limited range and Fujin is forced to spend meter to keep it from going away on block. Rain shouldn't get much better range and robustness on his setup for free. I think if NRS just shaved a bit off the recovery so that it was more practical, it would probably justify it being a two-slot move.

Now I'm no expert, but I honestly don't see how picking water ball can help Rain in any significant way. Sure it gives a lot of damage on hit confirms, and you get full screen combos, but I just don't see any significant reward beyond that. It replaces a very good projectile that Rain has that has superb anti-zoning capabilities, is very fast, does decent damage and can be amplified MID-FLIGHT to become a mid. On the other hand, Water Ball does less damage (only 5% I think), does knock down, but is a HIGH, and you can't convert off it if you trade, so again people with any sort of decent full screen presence I highly doubt Water Ball is going to get a lot done for you in terms of anti-zoning. AMP Katar Toss also helps cover a lot of gaps in Rain's strings safely, something that not many of his abilities can do, and certainly not what Water Ball can do, so against high level players who can OS 133/134 or flawless block B212, your options for offensive play become a lot more limited.

As you said, if they changed the input so that it doesn't conflict with Katar toss then we can talk about this ability being worth 2 slots due to the flexibility granted in damage and combos, but as of now I honestly don't see people picking this move up beyond experimentation and for fun. I'm not saying this move is complete garbage, but it's outshined by Katar Toss imo, which is a base move at that, and while it offers new avenues of possibility for Rain, it cannot help to cover weaknesses that would normally be covered by the base projectile

 

[Agilaz]

Honest replies only; does anybody here genuinely believe Rain's movement is enough to make up for all his flaws?

 

[Mandolore1123]

Honest replies only; does anybody here genuinely believe Rain's movement is enough to make up for all his flaws?

What flaws specifically are you referring to?

 

[Agilaz]

What flaws specifically are you referring to?

Minus on everything, relatively low damage output, no mixups, throws not offering oki, mediocre range overal....

These are my general complaints, but there's some specifics too like waterball being an inferior pick and yet costing 2 slots, lightning being a pain to use compared to other moves of its type..

Dunno, I thought he was just taking longer to click than other characters i have played, but now it just feels like i cant get much done with him.

Even when i tune into Rain streams in hopes of learning something new, most of the time i just end up watching Rain lose lol

 

[Mandolore1123]

Minus on everything, relatively low damage output, no mixups, throws not offering oki, mediocre range overal....

These are my general complaints, but there's some specifics too like waterball being an inferior pick and yet costing 2 slots, lightning being a pain to use compared to other moves of its type..

Dunno, I thought he was just taking longer to click than other characters i have played, but now it just feels like i cant get much done with him.

Even when i tune into Rain streams in hopes of learning something new, most of the time i just end up watching Rain lose lol

I think these are all valid things to be concerned about.
As for his movement compensating for this I think the most important one would be his stubby range. I see people dash up and interrupt strings with Rain and I think that’s the main way to whiff punish, aside from using F2 which does have good range (albeit a bit slow). His damage output varies depending on what abilities you have equipped, but most people would either have Hydro Boost/Geyser Palm equipped so you’re getting high 200s in terms of midscreen BNBs, hydro boost in particular gives superb corner damage. Even without these abilities his damage off Geyser Kick isn’t all that bad given the context of this game (25% off a punish isn’t good, but not all that bad in the grand scheme of things) though I agree that his damage off geyser kick could be bumped up a couple of points. He’s minus on everything yes but in this game very few characters have actual plus frames to use, and his staggers are still decent, especially since he’s left at -6/7 which sets up flawless block reversal quite well. He’s also able to cover all his gaps and highs with AMP Katar Toss and poke~BF2AMP is something that I feel is quite strong. I don’t really know how to comment on his throw OKI, it’s regrettable that he sends them pretty much full screen, but his movement at least allows him to get back into footsie range, and harass with Katars.

I think it’s important to note that it’s only been a few weeks since UMK11 dropped, and not only is Rain a new character, custom variations have also been opened up for the entire cast, so matchups and variation load outs will need a lot more time to grind out and test before we can say with confidence how good/bad a character is. I personally think that in a general sense Rain is definitely not a very weak character, his abilities offer him lots of options in different MUs, some of his abilities appear to be more lacklustre than others and his damage output off certain launchers is certainly a bit on the low side. However, given time maybe some of his weaknesses may be discovered and people will get better in the MU which will change the perception of a character

 

[Wigy]

I will say though that water ball is definitely better than the one-slot moves. Even if you just look at hit confirms, it gives you a lot of flexibility: You can get a good amount of damage (more than geyser kick or palm), choose whether to change sides, extend to a two-bar combo, or restand if you prefer to pressure. And if you actually do land it full-screen, you can close the entire distance (and probably put your oppo in the corner) without having to get in yourself.

There's nothing bad about it, except that taking it kills Rain's already-limited zoning capability, which almost forces him to get in to get anything done against a smart opponent. If NRS would just change the input to let you pick water ball and keep katar toss, it would totally be worth two slots.

Purple pain I'm not sure about yet. Fujin gets the same kind of setups with pressure bomb, which only costs one slot. But pressure bomb has very limited range and Fujin is forced to spend meter to keep it from going away on block. Rain shouldn't get much better range and robustness on his setup for free. I think if NRS just shaved a bit off the recovery so that it was more practical, it would probably justify it being a two-slot move.

He doesnt get much more damage. It replaces his projectile which gives him poke mindgames and is great on trades.

Extremely hard to justify as its a 2 slot that replaces a good move and doesnt actually do much but flashy combos with slightly more damage. Restand is great but he doesnt have a meterless launcher so you either spend two bars or get like no damage.

 

[Wigy]

I think outside of thunder, bubble and the grounded geiser palm, all of his abilities are pretty strong and useful.

Hard to tell how good he is atm. I really struggle in some matchups and others his mobility seems ridiculously good.

I do think he could have done with oki on one of his grabs as he seems pretty reliant on grabs.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I think outside of thunder, bubble and the grounded geiser palm, all of his abilities are pretty strong and useful.

Hard to tell how good he is atm. I really struggle in some matchups and others his mobility seems ridiculously good.

I do think he could have done with oki on one of his grabs as he seems pretty reliant on grabs.

Why is grounded geyser palm bad? I don’t think there’s an air version? Or are you talking about slice

 

[Wigy]

Why is grounded geyser palm bad? I don’t think there’s an air version? Or are you talking about slice

I mean theres the one that restands and the air one that launches. Bad wording.

I dont know the actual names of moves just the inputs.

Its very slow, high and the restand is meh

 

[Mandolore1123]

I mean theres the one that restands and the air one that launches. Bad wording.

I dont know the actual names of moves just the inputs.

Its very slow, high and the restand is meh

Ah got it. It's called riptide. BF1 I think is the restand

 

[Obly]

Now I'm no expert, but I honestly don't see how picking water ball can help Rain in any significant way. Sure it gives a lot of damage on hit confirms, and you get full screen combos, but I just don't see any significant reward beyond that. It replaces a very good projectile that Rain has that has superb anti-zoning capabilities, is very fast, does decent damage and can be amplified MID-FLIGHT to become a mid. On the other hand, Water Ball does less damage (only 5% I think), does knock down, but is a HIGH, and you can't convert off it if you trade, so again people with any sort of decent full screen presence I highly doubt Water Ball is going to get a lot done for you in terms of anti-zoning. AMP Katar Toss also helps cover a lot of gaps in Rain's strings safely, something that not many of his abilities can do, and certainly not what Water Ball can do, so against high level players who can OS 133/134 or flawless block B212, your options for offensive play become a lot more limited.

As you said, if they changed the input so that it doesn't conflict with Katar toss then we can talk about this ability being worth 2 slots due to the flexibility granted in damage and combos, but as of now I honestly don't see people picking this move up beyond experimentation and for fun. I'm not saying this move is complete garbage, but it's outshined by Katar Toss imo, which is a base move at that, and while it offers new avenues of possibility for Rain, it cannot help to cover weaknesses that would normally be covered by the base projectile

He doesnt get much more damage. It replaces his projectile which gives him poke mindgames and is great on trades.

Extremely hard to justify as its a 2 slot that replaces a good move and doesnt actually do much but flashy combos with slightly more damage. Restand is great but he doesnt have a meterless launcher so you either spend two bars or get like no damage.

Where's the argument lol, I already agreed with you guys about this. I never said water ball was better than katar toss. I just said that if you look at his abilities individually, water ball offers more utility than any other 1-slot move. But I acknowledged that it's still a dead move because it replaces something Rain really can't afford to lose.

Some folks have said water ball shouldn't cost two slots. But even making it one slot wouldn't fix that fatal flaw. So I was just saying, if NRS changed the input and let you keep katar toss, water ball would be fine as is. It's a great move to have, just as long as you're not forced to give up the essential stuff you get from the katar.

 

[DarksydeDash]

he needs Geyser Palm , 100%, no questions asked.

From there it's a freestyle of rift, slice, plane, boost, and Edenian Force.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I don't think he 100% needs geyser palm. Yes it combos, but if you can hit confirm so does roundhouse kick. Can you further explain why he needs it with no exceptions?

 

[M2Dave]

How are you going about opening people up who are patient. His damage is appalling in that variation sadly and it just seems very hit and run with lots of grabs and zoning for me.

I naturally gravitate toward zoning so I am used to be playing this style. I understand that offensive-minded players intend to rush down with hydroboost, but the issue is that this move does not jail every character consistently.

Most of the damage that I do with Rain comes from hit-confirmable strings, mostly notably 1,3 and b+2,1, grounded as well as aerial slices, katars, throws, and low pokes. I usually end rounds with krushing blows (i.e., throws, f+2,1+3, and aerial diving slice) and fatal blows.

While Rain's damage is low, krushing blow f+2,1+3 or aerial diving slice into fatal blow is a saving grace at unbreakable 45% damage.

Honest replies only; does anybody here genuinely believe Rain's movement is enough to make up for all his flaws.

To be mid tier or high mid tier, most likely yes. To be as good as characters like Fujin, Jacqui, and Liu Kang, most likely no.

 

[DarksydeDash]

I don't think he 100% needs geyser palm. Yes it combos, but if you can hit confirm so does roundhouse kick. Can you further explain why he needs it with no exceptions?

The damage, the ability to side switch without meter, the ability to combo off 133 or convert if your opponent jumps, to name a few. That last one in particular is crucial because you will whiff boost or Geyser Kick if they are too high. The oki off boost is nice as well because you're still in their face. It's also a very active anti air so it will catch people even when the move isn't on screen anymore.

 

[DarksydeDash]

I naturally gravitate toward zoning so I am used to be playing this style. I understand that offensive-minded players intend to rush down with hydroboost, but the issue is that this move does not jail every character consistently.

Most of the damage that I do with Rain comes from hit-confirmable strings, mostly notably 1,3 and b+2,1, grounded as well as aerial slices, katars, throws, and low pokes. I usually end rounds with krushing blows (i.e., throws, f+2,1+3, and aerial diving slice) and fatal blows.

While Rain's damage is low, krushing blow f+2,1+3 or aerial diving slice into fatal blow is a saving grace at unbreakable 45% damage.



To be mid tier or high mid tier, most likely yes. To be as good as characters like Fujin, Jacqui, and Liu Kang, most likely no.

And on top of all of this, the dive slice is a mind game to amplify and is safe on amplify.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

The damage, the ability to side switch without meter, the ability to combo off 133 or convert if your opponent jumps, to name a few. That last one in particular is crucial because you will whiff boost or Geyser Kick if they are too high. The oki off boost is nice as well because you're still in their face. It's also a very active anti air so it will catch people even when the move isn't on screen anymore.

Other than the no meter thing, water ball also does all of those. I think it depends on how you want to play.

Personally, I'll never use hydro boost cause I'm not a hyper rushdown player.

 

[Wigy]

Other than the no meter thing, water ball also does all of those. I think it depends on how you want to play.

Personally, I'll never use hydro boost cause I'm not a hyper rushdown player.

133 doesnt link into bubble