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F Champ Receives Lifetime Ban, Racism in the FGC/USA, and Other Prevalent Social Discussions

mrapchem

Noob
Some surveys have shown that African-Americans are one of the most socially conservative groups in America, even more conservative than the average white. If Republicans cared to reach out to black communities, I have no doubt they would acquire more votes. Democrats, on the other hand, are actively campaigning in black communities, as they should. Unfortunately, self-serving democratic politicians have falsely convinced many African-Americans that racism is the cause of all problems in America. They have taken the black vote for granted, and when they sense they may not get the vote, they lash back with racially-charged comments such as "you ain't block unless you vote for me."



I believe you, but you are, again, referring to historical racism, which no sensible person is denying. For example, redlining has been illegal for more than 50 years.



I am interested in the articles and the facts. However, I am not interested is playing identity politics and connecting single every issue to racial injustice. I judge people individually and by the content of their character. While black people have unquestionably suffered more hardships than any group throughout the history of America, any black person is as good as any white, Asian, Latino, or Native-American person. If blacks are given the opportunity to succeed, they can with hard work and perseverance, as seen with many, many successful African-Americans, including the 44th president of the United States.

I would encourage you to read one of Thomas Sowell's books or watch one of his interviews. I am no conservative so I do not agree with everything that he says, but he offers a plethora of curious facts for what he says and believes.
Again, Black people are not a monolith. In the South, Black people do indeed swing conservative on many issues. But they don't swing so far right as to vote Republican because they know that the party is openly hostile to them in a myriad of policy positions. Right as we speak, polling places in mostly Black areas have been shut down in Kentucky in a blatant attempt to suppress the vote just as been happening across the South for 5 or so years now. Black people in other metropolitan areas do not support right-wing policies as a general rule, which is why the Republican Party has given up even trying to convince them to vote for their candidates in Presidential elections.

The overwhelming majority of Black people understand that the same people that viciously attacked their mothers/grandmothers for integrating into white schools have made a home in the GOP and have lived there since.

You make the mistake of referring to systemic racism as something that happened in the past and isn't currently happening anymore. You need look no further than the criminal justice system, the attempts by right-wing states to institute extraneous voter-ID laws that disproportionally affect Black and Brown voters, as well as extreme attempts from far-right propagandists to de-legitimize Black athletes and politicians, while simultaneously tokenizing them as brass rings of success.

You mentioned President Obama - the only President whom a large segment of the American population believes is a Muslim (not that it matters if he were) and is not an actual American citizen. The main proponent of the latter lie? The current President of the United States, who has made it one of his main missions to undo everything that Obama did in office, whether good or bad. The Iran Nuclear Deal, the Paris Climate Accords, the Trans-Pacific-Partnership (which Trump was actually correct about), and Obamacare are all examples of this. It is not a stretch to presume that Obama's election and re-election directly led Republican voters to vote for Donald Trump; he has enjoyed the largest margins of support from his voter base of any Republican since the 2016 primaries. Not to mention all the instances of racist iconography that was created by extreme far-right voters depicting Obama as a monkey, or hanging from a noose, or targeting his wife Michelle, referring to the most educated First Lady in American history as a mere 'baby-mama'.

Black people making the case for exactly how racist America has been is absolutely not the doing of the Democratic Party - especially since it has been quite complicit in allowing many of these policies to occur to begin with. It's not merely as simple as Democrats feeding Black people propaganda making them feel like racism is the cause of all their problems. The overwhelming majority of young Black voters know that Joe Biden is the architect of the 1994 Crime Bill, which vastly expanded the prison population, along with prison production, police forces in Black neighborhoods, killed the opportunity of federal prisoners to get on parole and the like. In the same way, they knew that Hilary Clinton heavily endorsed said bill, calling young Black people "super-predators", which caused her to apologize for her support of the bill and call it wrong in 2016.

Was she pandering? Of course she was! Is Joe Biden pandering at this moment by picking a Black female VP? Absolutely. But, it illustrates a reckoning of the Democratic Party to right its wrongs towards Black people, though they aren't going about it the correct way at all.

Historical racism isn't just in the past - it directly affects Black wallets and households today. Black WW2 veterans being locked out of the GI Bill directly correlates to Black families losing more of their wealth in home ownership than Whites in the housing crash of 2008 and containing less wealth than their White counterparts today in 2020, for instance.

Can a Black person that works hard achieve the American Dream? Yes - I am a living example of this. But I and other Black people do this in spite of the system, not because of it. Had I continued to live where I was born, I wouldn't be typing this right now. After leaving my place of birth, I had the privilege of attending one of the most well-funded school districts in the state, took 8 AP courses in high school, got 3s or higher on them all and graduated college early. None of the kids I went to middle school with got that chance, and I see the effects on social media. There was not a White person for miles in my part of the city, yet they are the main occupants of the wealthy suburbs surrounding it.

This isn't merely anecdote - this is a trend across the nation. Schools in poor areas get less funding from taxpayers, thus granting students a much lower standard of education because they often don't even offer Advanced Placement courses, and if they do, it's not as many as richer schools. The students in the poorer schools (mostly Black and Latino) then are held to a lower standard with many more students per class - making the teacher's job much more difficult - and if encouraged to go to college at all, often do not have college programs at the school to assist them with the process.

Yet, those schools always have a strong police presence and metal detectors.

My point in all this? Systemic racism is not in the past, nor is it lefty propaganda. It is Black peoples' lived experience, especially those that are killed or brutalized by police. Any suggestion otherwise is itself nationalistic prattle that is borne out of American mythology, and not history or fact.
 
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M2Dave

Zoning Master
You mentioned President Obama - the only President whom a large segment of the American population believes is a Muslim (not that it matters if he were) and is not an actual American citizen. The main proponent of the latter lie? The current President of the United States, who has made it one of his main missions to undo everything that Obama did in office, whether good or bad. The Iran Nuclear Deal, the Paris Climate Accords, the Trans-Pacific-Partnership (which Trump was actually correct about), and Obamacare are all examples of this. It is not a stretch to presume that Obama's election and re-election directly led Republican voters to vote for Donald Trump; he has enjoyed the largest margins of support from his voter base of any Republican since the 2016 primaries. Not to mention all the instances of racist iconography that was created by extreme far-right voters depicting Obama as a monkey, or hanging from a noose, or targeting his wife Michelle, referring to the most educated First Lady in American history as a mere 'baby-mama'.
The far left, and even some liberals, believe that Trump is a Russian agent who is serving Putin. I am not interested in either the far left or the far right as both engage in identity politics, which I think is very dangerous.

As far as Trump's base is concerned, conservatives were rejuvenated after losing two general elections so they came out and voted just as liberals were rejuvenated after losing two general elections to George W. Bush so they too came out and voted for Obama. What does this have to do with racism?

Also, Trump, having promised to repeal or alter many of Obama's policies throughout his campaign, is appeasing his constituency. I fail to see what this has to do with racism. This is politics 101.

This isn't merely anecdote - this is a trend across the nation. Schools in poor areas get less funding from taxpayers, thus granting students a much lower standard of education because they often don't even offer Advanced Placement courses, and if they do, it's not as many as richer schools. The students in the poorer schools (mostly Black and Latino) then are held to a lower standard with many more students per class - making the teacher's job much more difficult - and if encouraged to go to college at all, often do not have college programs at the school to assist them with the process.

Yet, those schools always have a strong police presence and metal detectors.
As an educator, I agree. Unfortunately, schools in poor cities receive less funding because of low property taxes and hence less money is collected.

Even in schools in affluent neighborhoods, police have a presence and an "active shooter" drill that is practiced throughout the school year with and without students. During an in-service day, administrators simulated various scenarios, one of which included a retired police officer entering the building and shooting teachers with nerf guns in a school that is 90%+ white. Such is the time that we live in.

My point in all this? Systemic racism is not in the past, nor is it lefty propaganda. It is Black peoples' lived experience, especially those that are killed or brutalized by police. Any suggestion otherwise is itself nationalistic prattle that is borne out of American mythology, and not history or fact.
As I already mentioned a handful of pages back, I lived in several countries throughout my life and the fact is that America is the land of opportunity. There is no need to discuss the details again, but my family and I went from being on welfare 20 years ago to enjoying a middle-class life. You also worked hard in school, took advantage of opportunities, and managed to succeed. I would tell this story instead of the "everything about America is racist" one.
 
land of opportunity --> middle-class life
Isn't this just a gross over-simplification of how social mobility works? I am the first in my family with higher education (MSc) - my parents did not finish our equivalent of high school but remained working class throughout their lives. As an adult, I had the option to take loans and go to a good school any time I felt like it, but my surroundings and peers made a damn fine job of hiding this option from me. I was just lucky enough to have a conversation with the right people over vodka telling me that I could redeem my poor high school grades with a introductory year at the university, and if I managed to pull that off I would have access to all the MSc programs of that institution. My parents had no clue about this, my high school had no clue about this, my friends had no clue about this. Interestingly, after getting my degree in computer science and now mingling with people that get good pay, I also find out about all these other key habits that enable making a well-above average living that none of my friends or their parents ever had a clue about because they were occupied working night shifts as nurses or breaking their backs in quarries. I sincerely believe people need to be humble about what tools they were given in life when comparing themselves to others (me included, I consider myself extremely lucky - I won the lotto).
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
I just want to say this is easily the most well-articulated and informative debate I've EVER seen come about on this forum.

@M2Dave Here's a hypothetical question that goes to @mrapchem 's overall point: in your travels in life and going from poverty to relative comfort, do you think you would've had the same level of success if you were black?
Because I think, no Dave pun intended, it's kind of Fool™ish to assume that Trump isn't in power right now because of the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic base that wanted desperately to get the taste out of their mouths of having to live under the service of a black man who made it okay for gays to get married. It was the same motivation that drove people like Mitch McConnell and Ted Cruz among others to obstruct his entire agenda and administration across the 2010's, up to and including holding Antonin Scalia's vacant Supreme Court seat hostage for 293 days, to keep Obama nominee Merrick Garland out, and get eventual Trump nominee Neil Gorsuch in. It's what drives Fox News to be the despicably divisive "news network" they've been since the early 2000's, sowing fear and distrust and profiting off of prejudice. And it goes back further, to the Clinton administration solidifying the private prisons complex and condemning countless black people to lives trapped in the system over draconian drug laws that were put in motion by the Bush and Reagan administrations, in perpetuation of the post-abolition strategy of replacing traditional slavery with mass incarceration; the legal groundwork was collectively set under the banner of the "War On Drugs," just like the atrocities America committed in the Middle East have been justified under the "War On Terror." And that's just one aspect of the problem, before you even get to gentrification, redlining, gerrymandering, and the fight against mail-in voting, all tactics that racially-motivated people in power use to keep people of color in their place.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the woes of poverty and discrimination are worse on the other side of the world. But that doesn't mean they aren't happening on the same scale here. It just doesn't look as ugly on the outside as it is on the inside, and that's mostly because they keep it out of the textbooks and off the televised news.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Isn't this just a gross over-simplification of how social mobility works?
I am not certain what you mean. I was briefly recounting my story as an immigrant who experienced some social mobility. I excluded all the details because I am not writing an autobiography and/or a guide on how to attain upward social mobility.

I just want to say this is easily the most well-articulated and informative debate I've EVER seen come about on this forum.

@M2Dave Here's a hypothetical question that goes to @mrapchem 's overall point: in your travels in life and going from poverty to relative comfort, do you think you would've had the same level of success if you were black?
There are a million factors to consider, one of which may or may not be race, so I cannot answer your question. Besides, from what Mrapchem has posted, he is significantly more successful than I am. I never took any AP classes in high school. LOL. I graduated a little bit late from college at the age of 27.

I think if there is any "gross over-simplification" in this thread, it is that all inequities in America can only be attributed to racism and discrimination.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
I think if there is any "gross over-simplification" in this thread, it is that all inequities in America can only be attributed to racism and discrimination.
That's a reasonable assessment. Economic disparity has always been and will always be the biggest root under the tree, even more so than institutional racism.
 
I was briefly recounting my story as an immigrant who experienced some social mobility.
Yeah, I might've misinterpreted it as an attempt at some kind of anecdotal evidence?? Not my intention to stir shit.

inequities in America
I lived a year in the rural midwest, and damn if I didn't see some J.G. Ballard levels of economical segregation when roaming about. Like, gated communities on hills surrounded by trailer parks. Of course there's shit like that all over the world, not just in the US.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
My mom grew up so fucking poor that she shared one pair of jeans with two sisters. She got good grades in high school, wasn't a dumb fuck, got a masters degree, 30 years later has a comfortable living. Not everyone has the intelligence, support system, or drive to rise above their circumstances but it can be done.
It certainly can be done, but to me the question is are these success stories the "normal" or default, or are they the outlier? How much Socioeconomic mobility is there in the US, how does it compare to other countries, and what is it looking like over time?

I think income inequality plays a large part in decreasing socioeconomic mobility, and in turn I think racism and institutional racism plays a large part in income inequality.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
It certainly can be done, but to me the question is are these success stories the "normal" or default, or are they the outlier? How much Socioeconomic mobility is there in the US, how does it compare to other countries, and what is it looking like over time?

I think income inequality plays a large part in decreasing socioeconomic mobility, and in turn I think racism and institutional racism plays a large part in income inequality.
I think partially but theres a couple things here. Not everyone is as smart or driven as each other. Everyone has to go through high school, if you get decent grades, you have a shot at college, especially for minorities due to unique opportunities to help them financially (not arguing against this, its a good thing, and crucial for the aforementioned Native Americans from earlier in this thread). As Dave pointed out, career choice. People are getting fucking useless degrees when if they would go into technology, engineering, or health sciences, there would be a plethora of jobs. I think getting decent grades in HS, graduating HS, not going for a stupid ass degree and wasting your money in college OR just going into a trade because there are plenty of meaningful jobs otherwise.... and the big one: my mom didn't get knocked up. She didn't have a child before she was financially stable. My dad didn't have a kid till he could afford the financial burden. I think the historically high single motherhood (USA has the highest in the world) rates nation wide is what keeps people from moving up. Accepting that enormous financial burden before ready is insane.

TL;DR:
  1. Get at least decent grades
  2. Go to school or receive training for a real job that actually exists
  3. Wrap your shit or don't let a degenerate nut in you. And if pro choice that makes it even easier.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
TL;DR:
  1. Get at least decent grades
  2. Go to school or receive training for a real job that actually exists
  3. Wrap your shit or don't let a degenerate nut in you. And if pro choice that makes it even easier.
All good things. Working hard and making good decisions is always optimal. However, I think there are plenty examples where doing those things isn't enough, and also plenty of examples where the wealth your family currently has plays as much or an even bigger role than those things.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
All good things. Working hard and making good decisions is always optimal. However, I think there are plenty examples where doing those things isn't enough, and also plenty of examples where the wealth your family currently has plays as much or an even bigger role than those things.
Of course man. I'm speaking from my experiences and what I witnessed growing up. As I'm sure everyone else is. Those things just exponentially increase your shot imo. The sad truth is not everyone hits the genetic lottery so sometimes its easier said than done. I think it depends on your age too.

I'm not kidding myself. I'm 20 and white and I grew up with enough money to have all my needs and a few of my wants met. But I fucking work my dick off with a full time job and full time school and lift weights 6 times per week all so I can hopefully become more healthy and more wealthy. It'll happen slowly, but I hope to get a masters degree like my parents, become an occupational therapist, and pay it forward in the community. I know I was dealt a disproportionately good hand in more ways than one but I also work disproportionately hard in more ways than one. I'm literally not shit right now though and I feel like it's supposed to be that way, young people like me kind of need to suffer. If you think about it, young people have been hunters, drafted into wars, and scraped day to day for survival until really just 100-150 years ago, so our phisiology isn't that different. People I think are made to work like dogs when they're young and their brains will subconsciously punish them for it if they don't. I have literally no social life but am happy and fulfilled more so than a lot of my peers who do nothing but drink, party, and bang nasty snatch, but wonder why their lives aren't going anywhere. That was a bit of a tangent but I genuninely believe in individual responsibility and that everyone is valuable and capable of improving their station in life. I wont deny that some are dealt terrible hands though, but I feel what I said applies the vast majority of the time and the exception doesn't disprove the rule.
 
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mrapchem

Noob
The far left, and even some liberals, believe that Trump is a Russian agent who is serving Putin. I am not interested in either the far left or the far right as both engage in identity politics, which I think is very dangerous.

As far as Trump's base is concerned, conservatives were rejuvenated after losing two general elections so they came out and voted just as liberals were rejuvenated after losing two general elections to George W. Bush so they too came out and voted for Obama. What does this have to do with racism?

Also, Trump, having promised to repeal or alter many of Obama's policies throughout his campaign, is appeasing his constituency. I fail to see what this has to do with racism. This is politics 101.



As an educator, I agree. Unfortunately, schools in poor cities receive less funding because of low property taxes and hence less money is collected.

Even in schools in affluent neighborhoods, police have a presence and an "active shooter" drill that is practiced throughout the school year with and without students. During an in-service day, administrators simulated various scenarios, one of which included a retired police officer entering the building and shooting teachers with nerf guns in a school that is 90%+ white. Such is the time that we live in.



As I already mentioned a handful of pages back, I lived in several countries throughout my life and the fact is that America is the land of opportunity. There is no need to discuss the details again, but my family and I went from being on welfare 20 years ago to enjoying a middle-class life. You also worked hard in school, took advantage of opportunities, and managed to succeed. I would tell this story instead of the "everything about America is racist" one.
Allow me to be very clear - MSNBC/CNN and the Democratic Party absolutely do not represent the far-left. They are centrist, which in America, really means center right, because over time, both the Democrats and Republicans have shifted to the right. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is an example of a far-left candidate and she, along with all the other lefties in independent media not only know that Trump is not a Putin puppet (he attacked Syria, which is a major Russian ally), but we saw the entire Russiagate ordeal as a massive waste of time and political capital. It is obvious that Trump and Putin didn't collaborate in order to give Trump the election in 2016; Trump definitely encouraged Russia to dig up dirt on his opponent, but the Russian government did so completely on its own. America has done far worse for other sovereign nations - we topple their elected leaders and install our own puppet dictators, so the meddling that Russia engaged in is child's play in comparison.

In affluent schools, the police presence is far more muted and there are no metal detectors to scan the students than in poor schools. This, of course mirrors what happens in America in general - the police are distributed far heavier in poor Black and Brown neighborhoods to make their arrest quotas and keep order at any cost.

About Obama and Trump, yes the win wheel often swings back-and-forth between the blue and red parties, but we've never seen a President whose sole aim was to erase the legacy of his predecessor as we've seen with Trump. See, when Bush took office in 2000, he didn't upend all of Clinton's policy achievements. When Obama took office, he kept Bush's tax cuts, kept his de-regulation policies, kept and expanded on Bush's education legacy of high-stakes testing to include teachers. He even upheld Bush's foreign policy legacy on bombing the Middle East, even though he pledged to bring our troops home.

Trump has done the exact opposite - as I stated, anything that Obama instituted (even something as vital as net-neutrality), Trump has gone out of his way to kill it. In doing so, he is indeed pandering to his base, but given his horrific racial history, it is clear that he is also doing this to gain some level of personal satisfaction. So, if in pandering to his base, Trump seeks to undo literally everything that the first Black President did while in office, doesn't that beg the question of how racist America is still?

It is quite telling that right-wing voters sought a candidate that is nearly the polar opposite of Obama; he's inarticulate, makes rash judgements and decisions, doesn't read or even speak in complete sentences unless he's using a tele-prompter, engages in cyber-bulling because he can't take any criticism without lashing back, has no deference toward his wife, and lusts after his own daughter. If a teacher did any of those things, they'd be fired on the spot - as they should - but these voters like him either in spite of or because of those things.

I do not deny that America is the land of opportunity, but it does not provide the same opportunity for people of color that it does for people that are or can masquerade as White. That is demonstrable fact. There was a social experiment in which people created two identical resumes, with the only difference being that one had a White-sounding name and the other had a Black-sounding name. The White resume got 50% more calls back and far more interviews than the Black one did.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/mar/15/jalen-ross/black-name-resume-50-percent-less-likely-get-respo/

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews

If that's not outright racism within the system of hiring, then what is it? This trend bleeds into just about every facet of American life. I will not deny you your personal experience of ascending the socio-economic ladder. But I will tell you that for people of color, Black and Brown people especially, the same exact chance that was granted to you is not extended to them. Your experience (as well as mine) is largely a bill of goods to them. The exception to that trend are those that are exceptional.

Many of their neighborhoods are poor and filled with toxic pollution, drugs and crime. Instead of having fresh fruit places, they are filled with corner stores that sell digital scales and druggie bags, as well as liquor stores that are open late into the night. There are often no manufacturing plants or anything other than low-paying retail work for people. Children born in these places more or less have to ice-skate uphill because everything in their environment - literally down to the very air they breathe - can and will become their demise.

In suburbs everywhere, including my current-day gated community, nothing like that exists. We can buy as much produce before 8:00 pm that we want, because Publix is our corner store. If there is drug use here, the homeowners here have to bring the drugs in from somewhere else, but when they do, they consume them in their homes and don't even attempt to sell them. A child born here has a very safe environment where their biggest threat is someone driving above 15 mph or provoking one of the Sandhill cranes into attacking them. They are safe, the air and streets are clean, their schools are well-funded with small classrooms with iPads for kindergarteners.

Across the nation, poor people are locked out of this America. And if any of those poor people happens to also not be a citizen, then they're even worse off. I'm not saying that every problem Black people face is pure racism; much of it is rooted in the horrible wealth distribution that is caused by the American variety of vulture capitalism.

But, vulture capitalism relies on systemic racism to maintain an underbelly of cheap or free labor for unbridled corporate profit on American shores. Beyond our shores, corporations outsource.

Netflix's "13th" makes this horrifyingly clear. It is an absolute must-watch for all Americans.



Just as a side note, I didn't know you were an educator! I've been teaching math and science for about 8 years now - it's a harrowing experience.
 
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CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I have seen the reports, but I have also seen black conservatives like Larry Elder and Candace Owens provide opposing evidence, which is all they seem to do on YouTube. LOL.
You read through all 100+ pages of the justice dept. reports and felt it was countered by a couple of Youtube clips?

The justice dept. spent months on the front lines, in the community, looking through 100s of documents, conducting interviews, collecting data directly from the sources, and actually riding along in police cars and on patrols. What did Candace Owens do?
 

Ram

Buluc Chabtan
It certainly can be done, but to me the question is are these success stories the "normal" or default, or are they the outlier? How much Socioeconomic mobility is there in the US, how does it compare to other countries, and what is it looking like over time?

I think income inequality plays a large part in decreasing socioeconomic mobility, and in turn I think racism and institutional racism plays a large part in income inequality.
Are you asking if it's normal for someone who works hard and makes good decisions to be rewarded with success? In my opinion, yes, that is normal.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Are you asking if it's normal for someone who works hard and makes good decisions to be rewarded with success? In my opinion, yes, that is normal.
What I'm saying is that most people tend to view their own experiences as the default. Basically "I worked hard and made good choices, and I turned out successful, therefore if everybody simply worked hard and made good choices, they'd also be successful". I don't think this is always the case. There are plenty of people who are in poverty despite working hard and despite trying to make good choices.

This isn't to try and excuse people from working hard and taking personal responsibility for their actions. Again, those things are very important. I just think there are other factors that play a part in income inequality, which in turn effects things like socioeconomic mobility.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
What I'm saying is that most people tend to view their own experiences as the default. Basically "I worked hard and made good choices, and I turned out successful, therefore if everybody simply worked hard and made good choices, they'd also be successful". I don't think this is always the case. There are plenty of people who are in poverty despite working hard and despite trying to make good choices.

This isn't to try and excuse people from working hard and taking personal responsibility for their actions. Again, those things are very important. I just think there are other factors that play a part in income inequality, which in turn effects things like socioeconomic mobility.
And even aside from the anecdotal evidence, there's plenty of mass-collected nationwide data that shows that people in certain categories (women, minorities), etc. often earn less even for doing the same job as their majority counterparts.

At this point, anyone who doesn't acknowledge it is just willfully ignoring the facts.
 

Ram

Buluc Chabtan
What I'm saying is that most people tend to view their own experiences as the default. Basically "I worked hard and made good choices, and I turned out successful, therefore if everybody simply worked hard and made good choices, they'd also be successful". I don't think this is always the case. There are plenty of people who are in poverty despite working hard and despite trying to make good choices.

This isn't to try and excuse people from working hard and taking personal responsibility for their actions. Again, those things are very important. I just think there are other factors that play a part in income inequality, which in turn effects things like socioeconomic mobility.
Wait but your original question was whether "I worked hard and made good choices, and I turned out successful" was the norm, or the outlier, was it not? My response was that I think it's the norm. Do you agree?
 

Ram

Buluc Chabtan
And even aside from the anecdotal evidence, there's plenty of mass-collected nationwide data that shows that people in certain categories (women, minorities), etc. often earn less even for doing the same job as their majority counterparts.

At this point, anyone who doesn't acknowledge it is just willfully ignoring the facts.
And I'm pretty sure everyone here is in agreement that what you described is wrong and should be phased out of society. This comes back to an earlier post I made in this thread: the next generation. We have the power, through our children, to help ensure that future generations do shit right. Y'all better be raising your kids real good! :p
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Wait but your original question was whether "I worked hard and made good choices, and I turned out successful" was the norm, or the outlier, was it not? My response was that I think it's the norm. Do you agree?
I think for a lot of people it's the norm, but for too many other people it's not the norm. This is where things like white privilege and family wealth come in.

We have the power, through our children, to help ensure that future generations do shit right. Y'all better be raising your kids real good! :p
I think it also goes a step further into looking at our current social institutions and evaluating whether they're producing the outcomes we want. Maybe that means taking a more libertarian approach and cutting back on government programs that don't work. Or maybe it means taking a more hands on approach and adjusting or refining a government program so that it works like we intend it to. Maybe a mix of both strategies depending on the particular problem we're trying to address.