My Take On Kustoms For Competitive

[Eldriken]

Check out this fence sitter over here. This is the kind of deluded crap you guys have talked yourselves into. Pandering towards wanting something to change yet you don't actually want it. You like the current state gameplay of the system and there is nothing wrong if you could just come out and admit it. It's like this man has never played any other game where diversity in the game play leads to interesting out comes. It also proves the fact that you have no faith in NRS to actually do anything intuitive to patch any super crazy over powered combos (which you all claim aren't even happening).

People want it because it's something that could potentially breathe some fresh air into the game/community, but at the same time, if NRS (Paulo) fucks it up, which they have a tendency to do, it could ruin everything or just turn it into more of the same. So, while people do want it, they at the same time don't want it because of the potential to really mess things up.

Yeah, the illusion of choice due to Kustoms would be great, but do you think optimal builds would take a backseat to this? Kustoms or no, an optimal build is going to be the go-to choice in most competitive situations. This obviously excludes those who don't care for top tier or just want to prove they can do work with a less-than-optimal character.

Either way, it's likely gonna boil down to seeing the same character(s) doing what they do best, just with different moves. It'll be great at first since it's new and refreshing, but the novelty won't last long at all.

Also:

This isn't Crimson's website. @STORMS owns and runs the site. Crimson helps him with various things on top of moderating, but it isn't his.

Do you think everyone was readily available at the same time to all tune into said podcast? Are people not allowed to discuss things after the fact? I mean, what are you trying to get at here? I don't think anyone was unwilling or hesitant to discuss anything about it while the podcast was going on. Why would they be? Afraid someone on the Internet is gonna say something mean to them? Come on.

The game is "fine the way it is" for the most part. Can't really argue with that. But there are still things that could use some attention.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Bring kustoms to the forefront. NRS couldn’t balance a game if it were their jobs...oh wait

 

[Ram]

Yeah, the illusion of choice due to Kustoms would be great, but do you think optimal builds would take a backseat to this? Kustoms or no, an optimal build is going to be the go-to choice in most competitive situations. This obviously excludes those who don't care for top tier or just want to prove they can do work with a less-than-optimal character.

Either way, it's likely gonna boil down to seeing the same character(s) doing what they do best, just with different moves. It'll be great at first since it's new and refreshing, but the novelty won't last long at all.

Can you define "optimal" please?

Also, when you say "it's likely gonna boil down to seeing the same character(s) doing what they do best, just with different moves", isn't that exactly the point of customs? You seem to say this point as a negative, but it's a positive: you are opening up the same cast of characters to have a wider variety of moves (aka, custom)

 

[Icefyre]

For those of you who may be curious about the conversation with Cherny and King Jr., REO decided not to upload the podcast on YouTube because of excessive drama. LOL.

He didn’t upload it anywhere besides YouTube, I take it? I looked last night at some of his socials after reading some of the comments here to no avail. Definitely curious.

 

[Eldriken]

Can you define "optimal" please?

Also, when you say "it's likely gonna boil down to seeing the same character(s) doing what they do best, just with different moves", isn't that exactly the point of customs? You seem to say this point as a negative, but it's a positive: you are opening up the same cast of characters to have a wider variety of moves (aka, custom)

For this particular instance, I'd say "optimal" is whatever the community deems as the "best" set of abilities to use together to make their character(s) most effective.

I'm trying to think of how to explain my point so it won't be seen as a negative, but I'm having difficulty explaining myself. Basically, I feel that unless a certain ability or abilities drastically change how the character(s) play, then they're just doing what they did before with a shiny new coat of paint. Once the novelty of it wears off, I don't think people will really care too much anymore. That is unless of course characters have an ability or abilities that significantly change how they play.

Like, Outtake isn't any more enjoyable to watch than Show Stopper. Sure, the way the character plays between the two variation differs in some ways, but it ultimately boils down to Johnny doing what he does best. Jacqui wasn't any more fun to see in 1st Round K.O than she was in Upgraded and Upgraded caused her to be played quite differently than her other variations.

I would very much like to be wrong about any of this because it would lead to loooots of discussion and labbing among the community to figure out what's what. It could possibly lead to a meta shift or several while everything continues to get labbed and broken down. It being done right is vital because it will likely add lots of longevity to the game.

This is just my take on it. If you have any other questions, lemme know. I'll try to answer them the best I can.

 

[Ram]

For this particular instance, I'd say "optimal" is whatever the community deems as the "best" set of abilities to use together to make their character(s) most effective.

The community? I'm sorry, but who exactly is "the community"? What happens if "the community" doesn't unanimously agree on the "best" set of abilities? Sorry for being kind of annoying with these questions, but I hope that I'm getting across the point that no one has to pick a set of abilities just because someone else says it's "the best"

Like, Outtake isn't any more enjoyable to watch than Show Stopper. Sure, the way the character plays between the two variation differs in some ways, but it ultimately boils down to Johnny doing what he does best. Jacqui wasn't any more fun to see in 1st Round K.O than she was in Upgraded and Upgraded caused her to be played quite differently than her other variations.

You're talking about enjoyability of watching a variation, which is subjective, right? How can you claim that "Outtake isn't any more enjoyable to watch than Show Stopper"? What if to me, for example, outtake IS in fact more enjoyable to watch? Also, outtake and showstopper are current NRS-made variations, not customs. And same thing with Jacqui.

I don't mean to pick on you Eldriken, I just know that you're bringing up points that others have, but in a coherent, well-structured way as usual. That's why I prefer having back-and-forths with you

 

[Eldriken]

Anyone who keeps repeating the "people will only use optimals" are repeating a really dumb talking point. Like what exactly is going on in the game right now? People are using character optimal combos?! no way!

and another funny thing is these guys who keep saying this line assume everyone is going to have 100% execution every time. They think they are gods and can deem what if's to be the true out come.

Too bad no one's repeating anything about optimal combos, execution, etc. If you're not in this thread to discuss the topic itself, then feel free to help yourself out of it. Posting stuff like this isn't promoting anything worthwhile.

 

[Eldriken]

The community? I'm sorry, but who exactly is "the community"? What happens if "the community" doesn't unanimously agree on the "best" set of abilities? Sorry for being kind of annoying with these questions, but I hope that I'm getting across the point that no one has to pick a set of abilities just because someone else says it's "the best"


You're talking about enjoyability of watching a variation, which is subjective, right? How can you claim that "Outtake isn't any more enjoyable to watch than Show Stopper"? What if to me, for example, outtake IS in fact more enjoyable to watch? Also, outtake and showstopper are current NRS-made variations, not customs. And same thing with Jacqui.

I don't mean to pick on you Eldriken, I just know that you're bringing up points that others have, but in a coherent, well-structured way as usual. That's why I prefer having back-and-forths with you

While it's loosely on topic, this part of our discussion won't really be. So if you want, I can answer you in a DM.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Check out this fence sitter over here. This is the kind of deluded crap you guys have talked yourselves into. Pandering towards wanting something to change yet you don't actually want it. You like the current state gameplay of the system and there is nothing wrong if you could just come out and admit it. It's like this man has never played any other game where diversity in the game play leads to interesting out comes. It also proves the fact that you have no faith in NRS to actually do anything intuitive to patch any super crazy over powered combos (which you all claim aren't even happening).

You're either a Tom Brady hidey or a nut. I've criticized the game plenty, made numerous videos on what I'd change, and my ideal game is a completely different one from this one. Kustoms are not the change that is needed. They are a lazy band-aid solution to the problem that people will be bored of in a month BECAUSE KUSTOMS DON'T ADDRESS THE REAL ISSUE OF CHARACTER DEPTH.

 

[Ram]

While it's loosely on topic, this part of our discussion won't really be. So if you want, I can answer you in a DM.

If you have time and are willing, I'd like to continue discussing, yes.

 

[Eldriken]

Actually almost every post has said optimal will only be used and it will still be the same shallow gameplay.

I am the only person who brought up that you think you have god like execution which is just stupid.

Optimal ability loadouts are what people have been discussing. I haven't seen much, if any, discussion about execution or combos as a major talking point in this thread.

 

[Eldriken]

Oh okay. Customs are going to use optimal load outs but not optimal combos within that load out.

Do you hear yourself?

Loudouts, combos, and execution are all tied together. You can pretend they aren't but it doesn't change the argument in this thread at all.

You've made it pretty clear that you're not here to discuss, but instead incite argument. If you're not gonna contribute to actual discussion, stay out of the thread.

 

[AngryAtTheWorld]

People are looking too far into it. Think about a game like Diablo, where there are whole websites created around making custom builds. This game would have blown up if it was full custom day 1. Not because of balance or anything like that, but because of letting people be freely creative. There would have been whole groups of people chomping at the bit to get the latest builds from the new patches from pro players because they can’t think for themselves. You would have people intentionally trolling with off the wall and bad builds. I would have been one of those trolls.
NRS had the chance to do something bold, and they dropped the ball. It would have been awesome.
For future games, either kill the variation system or allow full custom IMO.

 

[craftycheese]

So I originally said that I'm for customs because I want certain moves for certain characters. The competitive variations are close to how I would want some characters to play, but not quite what I'm looking for.

But, I do like the idea and examples that Chernyy ended with, adding moves to the variations. IMO, it's probably one of the better fixes for the game I've read on here and probably one of his better suggestions.

I think that while I want customs, The more I think about it, I do think now that it isn't going to give the amount of freedom that I think it would. I think giving us more option/tools to work with will give us the freedome we desire. I do think it will still limit what the character can do and what you can do with the character. They're still going to play pretty much the same, person to person and it's never going to be "Your" Sub, "Your" Geras. DarkNoobz Baraka is going to play pretty close to how Karaokelove plays him. This is the problem. If I remember correctly, this is kinda the main complaint with SFV when it came out, there's no real individuality and everyone plays every character pretty much the same/the characters are kinda designed with one playstyle (I don't really know how it's doing now, I kinda stopped playing like 2 years ago I guess. So if it has changed, please let me know). And I think a lot of the complaints that I've read here and reddit all boil down to that.

In short, custom variations (and the variation system in general) on paper sounds like it will give you exactly the personalization thatwe want but I don't think it actually will. Give me all the tools and let me decide from there how I actually want to play the character. Don't limit me and force me to play the character this way.

Anyways, where's this podcast y'all referring to? I wanna listen.

 

[M2Dave]

He didn’t upload it anywhere besides YouTube, I take it? I looked last night at some of his socials after reading some of the comments here to no avail. Definitely curious.

The podcast is not even on YouTube. It may be archived on Twitch. I have no idea.

 

[The_Tile]

I guess I'm going to have to address this in full since @The_Tile is bringing out the bad arguments.

IF YOU ALLOW KUSTOMS, OPEN THE DOOR TO NERFING THE,/ADDING MORE RESTRICTIONS THAT TAKES THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT OF THE KUSTOM SYSTEM OUT ALTOGETHER AND NOW YOU'RE TAKING THE APPEAL AND FUN OUT OF IT FOR EVERYBODY. IT IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE ANSWER TO SAY "If a certain move combination is broken just add a restriction/just nerf this broken move" BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT THE KUSTOMS SPECIFICALLY TO HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE. NOT TO SEE THE GAME NEUTERED FURTHER TO THE POINT WHERE EVERYTHING FUN IS BEING GUTTED.

So what are you saying here, if we let customs rock then we can't buff or nerf and need to let everything run wild else the whole point of customs is lost? No. Just no.

The freedom is still there, all I'm saying is that it might not end up as much of a massive shit show as everyone and their mother likes to claim it to, as NRS would have more freedom in balancing. More creative ways to balance that are relevant to the custom variation system does not in any way take away choice, they don't even HAVE to make moves clash if they didn't want to they have plenty of ways to balance. Point is, the choice is there for all these "broken" and "optimal" builds that people are apparently going to be finding in the first 24 hours that apparently make the rest of the game obselete.

There's a happy medium between where we are now and having ridiculous custom sets running round without any balancing.

 

[The_Tile]

I am sorry, but this argument does not even make any sense mathematically. Balancing additional special moves and the possible combinations of special moves, which is essentially what custom variations are, is a lot more difficult than balancing special moves in a predetermined circumstance, which is essentially what tournament variations are. Players are the ones who would gain a lot more freedom, creativity, and exploration from custom variations, but the burden would be on NRS to regulate this mess.

Agreed that the burden would be on NRS to regulate it, and it would definitely pose more of a challenge than balancing tourney variations like we have now.

However I don't buy into the whole argument that the game is just going to become this huge, impossible to balance mess. That argument gets thrown around a lot and I was just trying to give an alternate perspective. It comes with more ways to balance SHOULD NRS feel the need to, which would help keep the game at least somewhat balanced while retaining the fun and variety of customs.

 

[MsMiharo]

Kollector has so few kustom moves they had to make his chakram 2 slots when adding a 3rd variation because otherwise they'd need to repeat a move in two variations.

The difference between characters and available/viable moves is huge. Just thought I'd throw that in the mix.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

There are pros an cons in both pre sets variations and ranked custom variations. I'm don't know what would I prefer to be honest. I'd like to see how kustoms would impact the game but the problem is that it would be a nightmare to balance. And if you change to kustoms you can't go back to just pre sets variations. People would get disappointed just like after the beta to the final games.

What I know for sure though is that I don't want to see variations again in a NRS game. Please no more variations, more base characters, and more character archetypes.

 

[Quantrell Jones]

Agreed that the burden would be on NRS to regulate it, and it would definitely pose more of a challenge than balancing tourney variations like we have now.

However I don't buy into the whole argument that the game is just going to become this huge, impossible to balance mess. That argument gets thrown around a lot and I was just trying to give an alternate perspective. It comes with more ways to balance SHOULD NRS feel the need to, which would help keep the game at least somewhat balanced while retaining the fun and variety of customs.

Even if customs are added to the the competitive side of the game Is NRS gonna change the interface of the game to allow ppl to make their customs at the character select screen? Bc if no then that is just a huge waste of time logistically for actual offline play. It would be mad annoying and stupid to watch someone go to the custom screen and change movesets on a loss, or to watch them take turns customizing characters before each set. It would also elongate the time for the tournament to be held and if you ever been to a tournament those things take quite a while to happen. Grassroots tournaments would have nightmares trying to run a 15 man bracket for it considering the massive time sink that would go into set-ups actually being used.

Also some characters actually already have their most optimal builds and that says a lot considering ppl are talking about allowing customs. That means for some characters nothing will change while others get the world. Like stated before even if slots were added and moves were buffed. It wouldn't do a lot considering some characters got everything they would need in their base kit. Like my favorite example imagine Liu Kang with 5 custom slots. This character is already good, and has alot going for him. Now lets say they make low fireball a base move so now that no longer requires a slot to be used.

Now his base kit is:
*high fireball
*low Fireball
*Flying Kick
*Bicycle Kick
Then lets make his custom set and we got 5 slots to work with so we are gonna get a bit crazy.
*Shaolin Vanish
*Kasari Slam
*Dragon Parry
*Energy Parry
*Shaolin Stance
Now with what is already possible Liu Kang has zoning, teleports, a projectile parry, a high and mid parry, a command throw, and a stance and stance cancel. Liu Kang would effectively turn into a grappler, zoner, and rushdown character in one variation.

Now lets look at someone like Scorpion lets say we give him air throw as a base move since it's a classic move like Liu's low fireball
Now his base kit is:
*teleport
*spear
*air-throw
But lets get crazy with these 5 slots we got now
*Misery blade
*Hell-port cancel
*Sin blade
Scorpion is now just reborn and burning specter combined, but why would I pick scorpion when Liu Kang not only does scorpion's mix way safer. His stagger is way better. He has 2 parries, and a command throw and he can teleport? What is my incentive to be Scorpion?

We can look at Jaqui too. Lets look at her base kit and say she can have Cybernetic Override
Now her base kit is
*Bionic dash
*Grease Kick
*Shrapnel Blast
*Up Shrapnel Blast
*Cybernetic Override
But once again we have 5 slots so we can get a little crazy with stuff so lets give her:
*Bionic Bounce
*Air Ground Pound
*Lethal Clinch
*Air Ground Pound
*Robo Grappler
Now Jaqui can be 1st round KO and upgraded. Now she can KB on throw breaks, dash punch, lethal clinch, Uppercut, and her 33 on counter hit she can jump around and mix you up, she can cancel her stings with no cost to meter, get big dmg on alot of hits, she can punish you severely if she breaks your throws, all the while still having some great buttons and pressure. Meanwhile you have Scorpion who only got one new KB and that comes from air-grab. He does't get unbreakable dmg. He doesn't get the ability to access his cancels or mobility without the expending meter out of the same resource, and he still needs meter to access that dmg bc outside of f3,4 scorpion has no natural launcher.

and this aint even me trying to downplay the variation bc him having all of that is stupid but it's not the oppression and total screen control that these characters would inflict. You have characters with 9f mids, great anti-airs, small hitboxes, stagger pressure, multiple game changing KB's, abilities that make some tools other characters have useless. Meanwhile you got others that are gonna get stronger no doubt, but why even bother using them when you can just pick the characters that do everything your character does and then some exponentially better? It'd be what T6 had with Bob and T7 had competitively with Leroy and no one enjoyed top 5 of evo being Bob vs Bob, and watching most games being Leroy vs Leroy.

 

[xWildx]

The fact that there’s this much arguing over whether or not to add something to make the game interesting for so many people is actually pretty telling in and of itself.

 

[The_Tile]

Even if customs are added to the the competitive side of the game Is NRS gonna change the interface of the game to allow ppl to make their customs at the character select screen? Bc if no then that is just a huge waste of time logistically for actual offline play. It would be mad annoying and stupid to watch someone go to the custom screen and change movesets on a loss, or to watch them take turns customizing characters before each set. It would also elongate the time for the tournament to be held and if you ever been to a tournament those things take quite a while to happen. Grassroots tournaments would have nightmares trying to run a 15 man bracket for it considering the massive time sink that would go into set-ups actually being used.

Also some characters actually already have their most optimal builds and that says a lot considering ppl are talking about allowing customs. That means for some characters nothing will change while others get the world. Like stated before even if slots were added and moves were buffed. It wouldn't do a lot considering some characters got everything they would need in their base kit. Like my favorite example imagine Liu Kang with 5 custom slots. This character is already good, and has alot going for him. Now lets say they make low fireball a base move so now that no longer requires a slot to be used.

100% the UI would have to be overhauled for offline play.

Also while I do agree with what you're saying about it affecting more characters than others, as a lot of characters already have their optimal variations. I think people want this change more for the fun and longevity of the game more than the competitive aspect of it. Sure, some characters already have their optimal builds but the fact that players have a few different special moves to swap and test synergies, create new builds etc just adds a bit of longevity and (hopefully) fun to the game.

 

[Quantrell Jones]

100% the UI would have to be overhauled for offline play.

Also while I do agree with what you're saying about it affecting more characters than others, as a lot of characters already have their optimal variations. I think people want this change more for the fun and longevity of the game more than the competitive aspect of it. Sure, some characters already have their optimal builds but the fact that players have a few different special moves to swap and test synergies, create new builds etc just adds a bit of longevity and (hopefully) fun to the game.

Well if they want that fun it's called kasual mode. It's there specifically for ppl to experiment make these crazy op characters. The User Interface has been designed around that, and the game has been balanced around that concept. It's ridiculous to expect the devs to spend more time from their families to completely overhaul the interface of both ranked, kasual, and the player select screen just for that. These people would have thrown away what is essentially an entire year of work for nothing. On a competitive level it would only stagnate the game bc Im not gonna play characters that aren't gonna have either crazy oppressive offense or stupid dmg and in some cases both of those. Some characters aren't even balanced meter management wise to be able to allow them to make some of these things work. Some characters don't even care about the meter bc they are gonna oppress you long enough to get it back.

Kustoms would fundamentally break the game, and put undo stress on the devs and I just aint for it. I could be wrong, and I'd be the first to admit and apologize if I am but that's just how I see it

 

[theotherguy]

Kollector has so few kustom moves they had to make his chakram 2 slots when adding a 3rd variation because otherwise they'd need to repeat a move in two variations.

I don't see how that is a problem. Raiden players seem to think that Raiden without a teleport is no longer Raiden. Not accounting for NRS adding an extra move to the base characters, if people think it's that beneficial then it will always get added in customs, effectively limiting the custom options.

Then you could argue that characters should have an extra move added, but going back to your point, you'll have characters that have even less options to customise with because there's one less ability to choose from.

 

[Professor Oak]

100% the UI would have to be overhauled for offline play.

Also while I do agree with what you're saying about it affecting more characters than others, as a lot of characters already have their optimal variations. I think people want this change more for the fun and longevity of the game more than the competitive aspect of it. Sure, some characters already have their optimal builds but the fact that players have a few different special moves to swap and test synergies, create new builds etc just adds a bit of longevity and (hopefully) fun to the game.

Contrived, artificial longevity, perhaps.

I think you guys have some cognitive dissonance going on. Cherny is bringing a strong point, so is the opposition, but I think the answer is a third option, kustoms should be standard with a UI revamp and that ISNT what will make the game better. Now that we have three variations there are only like 0-3 moves per character not in use currently. The different combinations are also more limited than you think and will for most players come down to combo path+chosen ability. I played the beta heavily, from release to close. On Twitter, Im pretty sure even here, know what the discussion was? What is x characters best loadout? Scorpion? Misery Blade and Demon Dash or Misery Blade and NJP. Skarlet? Cyphon, Teleport, Slow Blood Ball. Kabal? Low Hook Grab, Hook Grab, Restand. Etc., Successful or not, most people were looking for a "superior build."


The moves in customs arent the magic moves that will make the game fun. I like MK11, but Im constantly looking for something more interesting to do the more I play it. Dvorah Bug setups are the closest thing to fun in the game. Theres really not even Oki in this game. I know it sucks being on the recieving end, but I loved MOPPING players that were worse than me by pressuring them OTG. Now even bad players have a lot of okay options. I think breakaways are fun limiters too. Kinda just abruptly end the first bit of excitement in otherwise the slowest(?) Mortal Kombat to date. Fatal Blows that punish you into turtling because you got a life lead. FREE METER. Pokes being so good. Poke/throw meta is just really tedious. I preferred Low/OH just because you could learn to fuzzy gaurd things. I cant learn every humans grab patterns to a 100% success rate. Not even Sonic Fox can do that. Characters all being a rounded "Mid_Range Footsie CharacterTM" makes the game a little bland. Ive heard opinions both ways saying all characters play the same and n opinion that people with that opinion are idiots. Idk, I dont think Cetrion and Nightwolf play alike, but then again, when weve seen Dragon use her in top 8s, he does do a lot of jab staggers and throws, so at the end of the day, maybe the characters all HAVE to be played a certain way because of what the meta boils down to? Either way its fucking boring and I want something to change but Ill probably just stop playing again soon.

TLdr, Customs are cool but dont hand me shit and tell me I can do whatever I want with it