Seriously... Something needs to be done about the pokes

[Sage Leviathan]

If the opponent does a negative string on block and you get hit by their poke, that's your fault. If you land a poke and get hit by a poke yourself before you can jail your high, this is also your fault. Vast majority of d1~specials are unsafe or have a gap (with noteworthy exceptions in Outtake and Dirtbag (which has its own counterplay)).

Imo the only real "dumb" pokes are Johnny's d1 and Erron's d3 (which isn't a problem tbh). But sure, let's continue to blame MK11 instead of getting better.

 

[Tony at Home]

It's broken, not intentional.

It is 1000000000% intentional. You can literally just reach out to a dev and ask this

 

[Sage Leviathan]

@Zviko
You've always been able to throw as a counter to pokes. The region of a throw, while not very far, is very tall. Pokes are faster, thus meaning: if your poke is losing to a throw, you are poking after the opponent has thrown. This is intentional. You are being slow.

 

[Arqwart]

That's what I'm saying. It's not supposed to work like this. Not in this game. You can be at jump in range and you can grab someone's D4 lol. It's broken, not intentional.

How is it NOT intentional when it's been around since MKX?

 

[DeftMonk]

@Zviko
You've always been able to throw as a counter to pokes. The region of a throw, while not very far, is very tall. Pokes are faster, thus meaning: if your poke is losing to a throw, you are poking after the opponent has thrown. This is intentional. You are being slow.

Who d1 cancels into a specials that have a gap? But imo the ones that don’t have a gap should not be able to be made safe. Risk free mix ups aren’t healthy.
The extended hurt box during normals is in every game btw it’s no bug.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Who d1 cancels into a specials that have a gap? But imo the ones that don’t have a gap should not be able to be made safe. Risk free mix ups aren’t healthy.
The extended hurt box during normals is in every game btw it’s no bug.

I agree. D1~rising star is stupid.
Doesn't mean the entire poke system is a poorly designed mess, which is what everyone seems to think.

 

[Dogeofthesea]

Why the hell people brought MK9 as a good example of "good poke system"? Do you see what Kitana and Mileena do 50% of the time? Injustice 2 is the real good game with good poke system.

d1s in MK9 are mostly 0 to -2 on hit, sometimes this hit advantage varies when hitting a ducking opponent, and -15 on block. But there are like 2 characters (Kabal is one) that can punish d1s, because the blockstun of d1s doesn't exist at all. Also, characters like Kitana can mash d1 ALL DAY and her d1 literally stops all the offense of many low tier chars like Nightwolf or Noob.
d3s in MK9 are usually +3 on hit, -7 on block.
d4s vary greatly between characters. Sonya and Mileena have the best d4 in the game, 10f start up, 0 on block, +12 on hit [standing opponent], +5 on hit [ducking opponent]. I believe Subzero has the fastest d4 in MKX at 8f startup. Scorpion has the shittiest d4, being -1 on hit.

Don't make things up to make MK11 look bad

 

[Biggs]

Why the hell people brought MK9 as a good example of "good poke system"? Do you see what Kitana and Mileena do 50% of the time? Injustice 2 is the real good game with good poke system.

d1s in MK9 are mostly 0 to -2 on hit, sometimes this hit advantage varies when hitting a ducking opponent, and -15 on block. But there are like 2 characters (Kabal is one) that can punish d1s, because the blockstun of d1s doesn't exist at all. Also, characters like Kitana can mash d1 ALL DAY and her d1 literally stops all the offense of many low tier chars like Nightwolf or Noob.
d3s in MK9 are usually +3 on hit, -7 on block.
d4s vary greatly between characters. Sonya and Mileena have the best d4 in the game, 10f start up, 0 on block, +12 on hit [standing opponent], +5 on hit [ducking opponent]. I believe Subzero has the fastest d4 in MKX at 8f startup. Scorpion has the shittiest d4, being -1 on hit.

Don't make things up to make MK11 look bad

This post is so bad omg hahaha

 

[OutworldKeith]

So what it's the meta? This meta is not a good one. You being forced to play a coin flip game in a poke is dumb. This is not how counter poke should work.

Flawless block pokes?? Who is doing that on intention? Seriously 99% of the times that I flawless blocked a poke was pure luck.

There are certain situations where you can force pokes and flawless block them.

It was actually very easy to do with Geras before this recent patch.

 

[Zviko]

I still don't believe it's intentional in this game. It's too inconsistent to be true. And even if it is it's just stupid. Mid screen D4 grabs lol. How does that make sense.

True or not, still, how is this a solution? Why would you risk throwing as a reversal when if you are just slightly early, throw will whiff, potentially eating D2 and if you are slightly late you'll get hit by D1. Also, if you can react to a poke with a throw reversal, why the hell can't you react with a poke of your own? If they are mashers it will hit them 100% of the time.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

...if you can react to a poke with a throw reversal, why the hell can't you react with a poke of your own? If they are mashers it will hit them 100% of the time.

You just taught Testyourmight how to counterpoke properly.

 

[ExpectFlames]

Every single character in the game has a 10 frame throw that will beat d1 mashing. There's nothing to "be done" here.

What's funny is people where complaining hard about pokes NOT having throw invulnerability when the game released. Remember that? Like it was legit making people angry that they could get thrown out of the active frames of a poke.

It's like no one wants to acknowledge throws are a good solution to beating poke mashing, because they're too pissed about getting thrown when they're mashing pokes themselves.

I think your assuming that someone is going to let you get a rvs throw off. The very first time you attempt it I'm d2 forever after that point zero risk you either get KB or it's my turn again. Throws are not the answer to beating pokes. I do agree that if everyone had a 11 frame mid the game would be perfect joker fucking EATS MASHER with f1

 

[Gaxkang]

If the opponent does a negative string on block and you get hit by their poke, that's your fault. If you land a poke and get hit by a poke yourself before you can jail your high, this is also your fault. Vast majority of d1~specials are unsafe or have a gap (with noteworthy exceptions in Outtake and Dirtbag (which has its own counterplay)).

Imo the only real "dumb" pokes are Johnny's d1 and Erron's d3 (which isn't a problem tbh). But sure, let's continue to blame MK11 instead of getting better.

Going online nothing is guaranteed.

You could get hit by a mashed D2 lol.

The close combat is simply a head shaker from design POV. I remember fighting a Johnny Cage in recent times and on block it felt like I either could do nothing without him hitting me again or if by chance I landed a blocked D1...big deal (or bad deal even heh).

And let's say in a fight your D1 does hit...you can either gamble on jailing something or gamble on a throw.

The game favors offense. And any emphasis in defense involving flawless blocking is again a head shaker in design.

 

[Tony at Home]

The very first time you attempt it I'm d2 forever after that point zero risk you either get KB or it's my turn again

And if you start d2ing after d1 on block then it no longer even requires a particularly fast mid to full combo punish you from pressing buttons since d2s are significantly slower. The difference being the aggressor doesn't need to burn a valuable KB

Oh look we're actually playing a fighting game now with strategy and counter play. Funny how that works.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Going online nothing is guaranteed.

You could get hit by a mashed D2 lol.

The close combat is simply a head shaker from design POV. I remember fighting a Johnny Cage in recent times and on block it felt like I either could do nothing without him hitting me again or if by chance I landed a blocked D1...big deal (or bad deal even heh).

And let's say in a fight your D1 does hit...you can either gamble on jailing something or gamble on a throw.

The game favors offense. And any emphasis in defense involving flawless blocking is again a head shaker in design.

What?

Cage’s turn is over when you block something. of his kit is either high or slow, so his strength isn’t continuous pressure, it’s baiting you into making a mistake in the neutral that he can whiff punish with his generous footsie tools.

It sounds like you didn’t lab the MU, and just decided that he gets to press buttons again after you block something.

He’s a good character, but that’s not at all how he plays.

Also, what does ‘landed a blocked d1’ even mean?

 

[ExpectFlames]

And if you start d2ing after d1 on block then it no longer even requires a particularly fast mid to full combo punish you from pressing buttons since d2s are significantly slower. The difference being the aggressor doesn't need to burn a valuable KB

Oh look we're actually playing a fighting game now with strategy and counter play. Funny how that works.

I'm not proposing auto situations, I do know the poke meta was annoying. Joker ruins it though so I aint mad. The joy of pressing buttons

 

[Gaxkang]

What?

Cage’s turn is over when you block something. of his kit is either high or slow, so his strength isn’t continuous pressure, it’s baiting you into making a mistake in the neutral that he can whiff punish with his generous footsie tools.

It sounds like you didn’t lab the MU, and just decided that he gets to press buttons again after you block something.

He’s a good character, but that’s not at all how he plays.

Also, what does ‘landed a blocked d1’ even mean?

Offline his Nut Punch is punishable by at least a D1. Online...it's safe. And it's -14. That sets a tempo for how the game works.

A string one will commonly see from a Cage is b3, 4. May not see the rest of the string that it starts, but just that. Safe by itself. If anywhere near him one needs to hug the ground to not get hit since one likely won't block it on reaction.

Anyways experience online was either Cage being safe, or Cage seeming plus. And that's after getting thru the annoying zoning.
The "matchup" was a 7f D1 on block against whatever he would do.

So either D1 hits, gets blocked, or never arrives.

And a D1 that is blocked is at least something that got there, but nothing to celebrate.

And if a D1 does hit...that's not really something to celebrate either. It's not as bad...it's just you aren't gonna do much with that. You may end up comboed yourself.

 

[Zviko]

Offline his Nut Punch is punishable by at least a D1. Online...it's safe. And it's -14. That sets a tempo for how the game works.

If -14 move is safe in the game with probably the best netcode fighting game community has ever seen then I wonder how can people even touch online in all the other games.

 

[ninjamob187]

• Minimum block stun should be atleast -5
• pokes on hit should give enough push back so grab attempts are mute
• give ALL characters more frames on hit so they can jail highs more consistently

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Offline his Nut Punch is punishable by at least a D1. Online...it's safe. And it's -14. That sets a tempo for how the game works.

A string one will commonly see from a Cage is b3, 4. May not see the rest of the string that it starts, but just that. Safe by itself. If anywhere near him one needs to hug the ground to not get hit since one likely won't block it on reaction.

Anyways experience online was either Cage being safe, or Cage seeming plus. And that's after getting thru the annoying zoning.
The "matchup" was a 7f D1 on block against whatever he would do.

So either D1 hits, gets blocked, or never arrives.

And a D1 that is blocked is at least something that got there, but nothing to celebrate.

And if a D1 does hit...that's not really something to celebrate either. It's not as bad...it's just you aren't gonna do much with that. You may end up comboed yourself.

This is so hilariously wrong.
If you can't punish something that's point blank -14, he's literally doing a split right in front of you, "Please punish me for a full combo," and you don't, why are you blaming the game.

I guess that's just the online experience! Except it's not. You're being bad. B34 is -7 and begins off an 18f low. Hit confirm your pokes. Jail your buttons.

I see this complaint about pokes a lot and I just don't get it. Is it really this hard to understand?

 

[Gaxkang]

This is so hilariously wrong.
If you can't punish something that's point blank -14, he's literally doing a split right in front of you, "Please punish me for a full combo," and you don't, why are you blaming the game.

I guess that's just the online experience! Except it's not. You're being bad. B34 is -7 and begins off an 18f low. Hit confirm your pokes. Jail your buttons.

I see this complaint about pokes a lot and I just don't get it. Is it really this hard to understand?

If you block the Nut Punch and hit D1 and it is blocked...that is the game not the user, heh.
I've noticed it about Cage for a while online.

And like I say if you are anywhere near him you need to be hugging the ground or else you won't block that b34. Probably don't want to be trying your own string either.

And if your D1 hits you get to gamble on a jail or a throw.

The close game is just bleh...the game wants you on offense, and to use throws and jumps. Just not neutral jumps heh.

 

[Gaxkang]

If -14 move is safe in the game with probably the best netcode fighting game community has ever seen then I wonder how can people even touch online in all the other games.

I've noticed it about the Nut Punch for a while, how it can be online.

And I dunno netcode despite whatever quality still depends on user quality and game design.

 

[Zviko]

Except it is the player and not the game or it's online. Seriously -14f is a lot, you are just too slow to react. Could be that you are used to block stun but there's no block stun with this move. So 8f after it connects you can't punish it anymore. There can be a huge difference between 2 moves, both same minus on block but one with huge block stun and the other with none. That's why I don't understand why people hate block stun so much. Yes it's a bit harder to get the timing right but you have more time to react.

 

[DeftMonk]

If you block the Nut Punch and hit D1 and it is blocked...that is the game not the user, heh.
I've noticed it about Cage for a while online.

And like I say if you are anywhere near him you need to be hugging the ground or else you won't block that b34. Probably don't want to be trying your own string either.

And if your D1 hits you get to gamble on a jail or a throw.

The close game is just bleh...the game wants you on offense, and to use throws and jumps. Just not neutral jumps heh.

uh. nut punch is hella punishable bro. Your just hitting d1 (why the hell you would punish nut punch with d1 I have no idea) too slowly. Turn on the thing that simulates online lag and go to practice mode.

If you are too slow even scorpions teleport is "safe" by this definition lol.

 

[Gaxkang]

Except it is the player and not the game or it's online. Seriously -14f is a lot, you are just too slow to react. Could be that you are used to block stun but there's no block stun with this move. So 8f after it connects you can't punish it anymore. There can be a huge difference between 2 moves, both same minus on block but one with huge block stun and the other with none. That's why I don't understand why people hate block stun so much. Yes it's a bit harder to get the timing right but you have more time to react.

Well ya block it and you hit your move...that's how it should be. Going any quicker than that, I dunno.

I have noticed in practice mode with some things it can feel like you have to punish the very very instant their move hits your block....but that's dicey to shove online and expect it work ok all the time I think heh.
And the way the game plays you already gotta wait/guess if someone will end a string with a special anyways.