Is the wakeup system too strong?

[OutworldKeith]

I feel like there are too many options. Delay wake up being the most powerful IMO, and it costs no resource.

 

[GLoRToR]

Wait aren't skarlets good?

I haven't played a whole lot but her u3 hits a mile away.

Low profiled by d3 and d4 regularly just like Jade's u3.
And both their u2 doesn't reach a lot of moves that others launch for free.

 

[Ram]

Most of the complaints are from people who don’t want to think/react and just want to mash something out every time they knock their opponent down.

Stop giving away my strategy D:

 

[Name v.5.0]

I've done 111 with nightwolf on knockdown with people somehow jumping out in between. It's mad.

YES. This is exactly what I mean. I can't tell you how many times I do F344 with Cage, and they stand up and hit me between the fucking kicks. HOW?!?!?

 

[Name v.5.0]

After reading through this thread, and then playing a few hours today, I realize now that I get fucked up on my opponents wake ups pretty often. I think when I play tonight, I'm just going to let them get up and see how it goes. Fucking sick of going for something, only to have it countered.

 

[deathstroke187]

options like rolls and u3 and u2 should cost more defense meeter.

 

[JTC]

No its just stupid.

 

[OutworldKeith]

@Outworld, yeah and that's a good thing that delay don't cost anything since wake ups in this game cost too much of 2 bars(your entire defense meter)

Cost too much? Everyone is aware that meter in this game is free?

 

[OutworldKeith]

this is also a wrong statement
The MK11 wakeup system has 1 fully invincible move which is U3, and they can't delay where they are going to activate it either.
Rolls are strike invincible only and you can grab them. and U2 doesn't have invincibility frames.

I think he means the standing animation when you get off the ground without using a wakeup.

Not sure how many iframes it has, but I’ve definitely had my meaties beat out by wake up buttons. Pause.

 

[OutworldKeith]

My first thoughts are that the current wakeup system seems fine. The player that gets knocked down has plenty of options, which is nice cause it's good to be able to stand back up and get back into the fight and not feel like getting knocked down puts someone into a kind of vortex. At the same time if someone starts to get predictable on wakeup the opponent has some pretty hard ways to counter it. And if the person waking up guesses correctly most of the time the result is just to reset neutral.

My problem with this generation of fighting games is the devs are taking out a lot of skill checks.

When you get knocked down you are supposed to be at a handicap. It forces players to think in terms of risk/reward.

Do the new fighting games even have hard knockdowns anymore? I’m almost 100% sure MK11 doesn’t have them.

 

[OutworldKeith]

I'm gonna lab some stuff later in both games but I really think the get up frames weren't really changed. I think the oki in MK11 is nerfed mostly because normals have a lot less active frames than previous games. Also having so many wakeup options and all of them coming out almost at the same time, unlike previous games where rolls come out much earlier than getting off the floor (wakeup specials too), means you don't have time to wait and see if they did anything on wakeup then react with oki if they didn't do anything like we did in previous games.


For example: I pressure on oki with Subzero in MK11 with B3 which is his best option, and it only has 2 active frames. In MKX I used to pressure with Kotal with F1 and B1, which had 4 and 5 active frames respectively. This alone means timing shit on oki is much more strict.

And there aren’t any hard knockdown situations. I’m sure MKX had them. Would you mind checking just to confirm?

 

[BarakaTile]

I think it's fine as is.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Over 20 invincible frames while getting up. Really curious who thought this was a good idea.

Thats needed because without it there would be a throw festival on wakeups.

 

[OnlineSkunk]

Jabbing on knockdown means a hard read and giving up any pressure if you're wrong.

It's just a little too good for such a high reward option when you're meant to be holding shit. That's my opinion obviously of how Oki should play but jumping should basically be a non option unless you're hard reading a grab.

Doesn't help jump kicks are stupid in this game.

You're right about that but it's not like the end of the world and it's something that can be fixed with a patch if NRS wanted to.

 

[xKMMx]

These are the fact...
You can grab an opponent waking up with forward or back up roll.
You can neutral jump and punish almost all up 2's and 3's if you read it with almost no effort.
SO NO THEY ARE NOT TOO STRONG YOU JUST DONT PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR OPOONENT AND MAKE ADJUSTEMENTS>

 

[Wigy]

You're right about that but it's not like the end of the world and it's something that can be fixed with a patch if NRS wanted to.

Nrs don't want to seem to sort anything. Muh Paulo vision.

 

[kcd117]

Thats needed because without it there would be a throw festival on wakeups.

U2s are invincible to throws and U3s are fully invincible. Reducing the Iframes from 21 to 15 would already have HUGE impact.

The way this game works, some characters simply take more risks trying to enforce their oki than the guy that just lost neutral and got knocked down and some others like Geras or Kang don’t give a flying fuck about your options bc they can cover everything and put you in their blender. Both situations are bad imo. The invincible frames need to be toned down and the stupid oki that can kill you for guessing wrong after you lose neutral once needs to go.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Wrong. You are completely invincible while standing up for 21 frames. This means Rolls are invincible, U3s are invincible and wakeup buttons are basically semi-invincible. You can also get up on crouching state, which takes out the high meatys of the equation as a wakeup D1 is basically invincible to all highs.

The problem is not how many options you have, is this shitty invinciblity that turns what would be non-options into options.

I didn't got your explanation at first, then wigy clarified i'm sorry.

I think he means the standing animation when you get off the ground without using a wakeup.

Not sure how many iframes it has, but I’ve definitely had my meaties beat out by wake up buttons. Pause.

I didn't understood his text, wigy clarified

 

[MKF30]

Cost too much? Everyone is aware that meter in this game is free?

Yes, 2 bars of meter is too much for sub par wake ups in this game. How is it free exactly? That shit takes forever to reload lol .

 

[trufenix]

Haha, defense too strong? Lmao. What is this?

 

[Marlow]

When you get knocked down you are supposed to be at a handicap. It forces players to think in terms of risk/reward.

I totally agree, the question is just how much of a handicap should it be? There are pro's and con's for both making it a strict handicap or for making it a more lenient handicap.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Yes, 2 bars of meter is too much for sub par wake ups in this game. How is it free exactly? That shit takes forever to reload lol .

It's free because you don't have to do anything for it lol.

 

[OutworldKeith]

I totally agree, the question is just how much of a handicap should it be? There are pro's and con's for both making it a strict handicap or for making it a more lenient handicap.

NRS had a good idea with wake up attacks U2/U3. However, I think it would've been better to have 1 special wake up attack that launches & has iframes, but is full combo punishable. In it's current form, Geras has the only U2 I've ever seen used on wake up lol.

This would give players on the ground an enticing option to steal momentum back, check players for being too aggressive, etc. The flip side is you'll get punished if baited. The risk reward is still in favor of the player on his feet because he simply has more options.

 

[LaidbackOne]

Really? I mean, yeah, he's generally very plus post knockdown, and both his grabs offer oki, but his main offensive string (f33) is also horrible on whiff.
He could always walk back and dash in in reaction but that's not as effective as just standing back and throwing out long hurtboxless buttons to stuff u3s, u2s rolls and jabs all at the same time.

Yeah, really.
Do you even play the character?

 

[MKF30]

It's free because you don't have to do anything for it lol.

The delay yes, but the other wake ups cost you 2 bars man lol. That shit's a ripoff haha I personally miss MK 9's options that were all free too lol.