Is the wakeup system too strong?

[DeftMonk]

I’m terrified to approach someone on wakeup... as the aggressor.

That should sum it up.

Don't be bro just find some mid that is hella plus on hit. Check them with it meaty once and see what they do. If they roll you didn't commit to a string, if they u3 its not the end of the world. If they do anything else ur meaty hit and ur good to get ur game goin. Usually eventually most opponents tend to favor a 3 or so ways to deal with stuff. When you find out what they like to do just go hamburger on em.

 

[Blewdew]

Neutral jump punch will full combo a roll, also you can wait a split second to see if they roll and attack them, in addition to throw. There’s a reason you don’t see that many rolls in high level play.

Most of the complaints are from people who don’t want to think/react and just want to mash something out every time they knock their opponent down.

you still have the option to do these things. it's not that one option is completely overpowered, it's the amount of options that leads to questionable stuff working on wakeup and a lot of them reward you way too much.
realistically the only options you need are delay wakeup, block and wakeup buttons because these alone are powerful enough to fuck up the timing of your meaty to full combo punish you. though it doesn't take away the possibility to answer to the adaption of my opponent with all the other options and most of them require a precise read to be blown up and grant you a full combo. while u3 and u2 should have been the primary wakeup options these are the worst ones by far by how punishable they are and how little they reward you.
by this time I feel the best options are walking your opponent down to force a delay or walk back and reacting to whatever they're trying to do on wakeup.

 

[DeftMonk]

It's one of my favorite things about this game, making reads be It by the attacker or the defender once someone hits the ground. There is no free card out of jail, should the attacker do the right read, you will be punished and lose resources for nothing, it's a very satisfying system for me.

I pretty much wholeheartedly agree with this dude. If you woke up and you guessed wrong not only am i still on ur nuts but next time I open you up, you have no breakaway. There is a pretty big risk to all the wakeups in most situations and on top of that if you guessed wrong not only did you just lose some life but, you just lost your breakaway.

 

[SaLB71]

What about the command grab characters and the 7 ways options the defender has to wake up?. It's the reason there is no command grab variation played at high level.

 

[kcd117]

this is also a wrong statement
The MK11 wakeup system has 1 fully invincible move which is U3, and they can't delay where they are going to activate it either.
Rolls are strike invincible only and you can grab them. and U2 doesn't have invincibility frames.

Wrong. You are completely invincible while standing up for 21 frames. This means Rolls are invincible, U3s are invincible and wakeup buttons are basically semi-invincible. You can also get up on crouching state, which takes out the high meatys of the equation as a wakeup D1 is basically invincible to all highs.

The problem is not how many options you have, is this shitty invinciblity that turns what would be non-options into options.

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

Wrong. You are completely invincible while standing up for 21 frames. This means Rolls are invincible, U3s are invincible and wakeup buttons are basically semi-invincible. You can also get up on crouching state, which takes out the high meatys of the equation as a wakeup D1 is basically invincible to all highs.

The problem is not how many options you have, is this shitty invinciblity that turns what would be non-options into options.

You can throw on rolls, though

 

[Kindred]

wake up system is fine. Yea you have many options but if you dont have meter, all you can do is delay or wakeup buttons.
As for the rest, yea you have all these options but truth be told, people have patterns and will use some options more than others. It's on you to read those tendencies and that aspect of the game further separates the ok players, from the good players

 

[Braindead]

Wrong. You are completely invincible while standing up for 21 frames. This means Rolls are invincible, U3s are invincible and wakeup buttons are basically semi-invincible. You can also get up on crouching state, which takes out the high meatys of the equation as a wakeup D1 is basically invincible to all highs.

The problem is not how many options you have, is this shitty invinciblity that turns what would be non-options into options.

No lol. Characters are only invincible on wakeup until they have control of their character. This has been the same in NRS games forever. D1 wakeup has always been invincible to highs. I used to abuse wakeup d2 in MKX to stop people from thinking they can pressure me with highs on oki.

Only u3s and rolls are actually invincible in MK11.

 

[Wigy]

No lol. Characters are only invincible on wakeup until they have control of their character. This has been the same in NRS games forever. D1 wakeup has always been invincible to highs. I used to abuse wakeup d2 in MKX to stop people from thinking they can pressure me with highs on oki.

Only u3s and rolls are actually invincible in MK11.

Completely untrue. You could meaty people on the floor before they had a chance to press any buttons in mk9 and mkx.

Legit go play those games. Staying down and getup buttons are about 50x less useful

 

[thlityoursloat]

It's flawed tbh.
It appears that the best way to safely check all wakeups is to walk back and attempt to punish any wakeup attempt, and it generally just to happens to be characters with the longest range buttons.
I'm sorry but I don't think Frost or Kabal should have easier oki than Jax.

 

[Wigy]

It's flawed tbh.
It appears that the best way to safely check all wakeups is to walk back and attempt to punish any wakeup attempt, and it generally just to happens to be characters with the longest range buttons.
I'm sorry but I don't think Frost or Kabal should have easier oki than Jax.

Jax has the easiest Oki on the planet are you mad. Walk back f2 covers like everything.

B22 with frost is absolutely horrific on whiff or if they jump

B121 all hits are horrible on whiff and jump.

1 has no range at all

B3 is slow as shit with no range.

She's amazing in the corner with d4 344 b2 special cancel shenanigans but she's not on the 'OP oki' list.

 

[Name v.5.0]

My favorite is wake up jabs that somehow sneak in between my strings that have no gaps.

 

[Wigy]

My favorite is wake up jabs that somehow sneak in between my strings that have no gaps.

I've done 111 with nightwolf on knockdown with people somehow jumping out in between. It's mad.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Lol Jax has the easiest Oki on the planet are you mad?

B22 with frost is absolutely horrific on whiff or if they jump so I don't know why frost is on this list.

Her best Oki button is 344 in the corner.

B121 all hits are horrible on whiff and jump.

Really? I mean, yeah, he's generally very plus post knockdown, and both his grabs offer oki, but his main offensive string (f33) is also horrible on whiff.
He could always walk back and dash in in reaction but that's not as effective as just standing back and throwing out long hurtboxless buttons to stuff u3s, u2s rolls and jabs all at the same time.

 

[Marlow]

How does the risk/reward play out between the player knocked down and the player applying pressure? Just in terms of possible outcomes? Like if you were able to make a decision matrix listing the different possible outcomes, does the risk/reward of those outcomes favor either the knocked down player or the player applying pressure?

 

[Marlow]

My first thoughts are that the current wakeup system seems fine. The player that gets knocked down has plenty of options, which is nice cause it's good to be able to stand back up and get back into the fight and not feel like getting knocked down puts someone into a kind of vortex. At the same time if someone starts to get predictable on wakeup the opponent has some pretty hard ways to counter it. And if the person waking up guesses correctly most of the time the result is just to reset neutral.

 

[kcd117]

No lol. Characters are only invincible on wakeup until they have control of their character. This has been the same in NRS games forever. D1 wakeup has always been invincible to highs. I used to abuse wakeup d2 in MKX to stop people from thinking they can pressure me with highs on oki.

Only u3s and rolls are actually invincible in MK11.

Also wrong. You could meaty people on the ground in other NRS games bc there were little to no Iframes in the proccess of getting up until MK11. High meatys were also real, but in this game you can wakeup in crouching state out of the Iframes.

You misinterpreted what I said about the semi-invincible wake up buttons. I should have worded it better but what I tried to say is that, for example, as Liu Kang, you have a 7 frame Jab and 21 Iframes to get up, which means a wakeup jab will come out in 28 frames and it basically consists in semi invincible kind of wakeup, since if you go for your meaty and it connects on frame 20, the Iframes will eat it out and you'll get full comboed by the Liu player. "But then you mistimed your meaty" well, yeah, but one thing is mistiming bc your opponent is still on the ground and being punished, having your meaty eaten by Iframes into a normal is another animal, and let's not forget you can do the same thing on 3 different windows with regular wakeup, short delay and long delay, + all the other wakeup options.

 

[Braindead]

Completely untrue. You could meaty people on the floor before they had a chance to press any buttons in mk9 and mkx.

Legit go play those games. Staying down and getup buttons are about 50x less useful

Nah I used to screw up my oki with Shinnok's f4 too much to remember shit distinctly going through characters while they're standing up.

Highs also 100% didn't oki on wakeup you could poke or d2 under them I'm 100% sure. I've done it a ton of times as well.

 

[Braindead]

but in this game you can wakeup in crouching state out of the Iframes.

Ok I actually remember in IGAU there was some specific standing hitbox frames when someone gets off the floor and highs would connect there.

Maybe in MKX I used to poke under highs on wakuep because people were mistiming their shit.

 

[GLoRToR]

Do you think the wakeup system is too strong?

1 - u3
2 - u2
3 - forward roll
4 - roll backwards
5 - instant wakeup buttons/jumping
6 - short delayed wakeup
7 - long delayed wakeup

Too many options?

Depends whose.

Like everything in this game, there are characters with good wakeups and then there is Jade, Kitana, and Skarlet.

 

[Braindead]

I'm gonna lab some stuff later in both games but I really think the get up frames weren't really changed. I think the oki in MK11 is nerfed mostly because normals have a lot less active frames than previous games. Also having so many wakeup options and all of them coming out almost at the same time, unlike previous games where rolls come out much earlier than getting off the floor (wakeup specials too), means you don't have time to wait and see if they did anything on wakeup then react with oki if they didn't do anything like we did in previous games.


For example: I pressure on oki with Subzero in MK11 with B3 which is his best option, and it only has 2 active frames. In MKX I used to pressure with Kotal with F1 and B1, which had 4 and 5 active frames respectively. This alone means timing shit on oki is much more strict.

 

[Wigy]

Depends whose.

Like everything in this game, there are characters with good wakeups and then there is Jade, Kitana, and Skarlet.

Wait aren't skarlets good?

I haven't played a whole lot but her u3 hits a mile away.

 

[Braindead]

High meatys were also real, but in this game you can wakeup in crouching state out of the Iframes.

Just checked, as I thought meaty highs aren't a thing.

 

[Braindead]

Hitting while getting off the ground did work more in MKX than MK11 though - also double checked that. You regain control of your character almost instantly after getting off the ground so it's consistent with the animation. There's only like a couple of frames while standing up where you don't have control. So that's a big difference from MK11.

 

[MKF30]

@Outworld, yeah and that's a good thing that delay don't cost anything since wake ups in this game cost too much of 2 bars(your entire defense meter)