(Discussion) The Unprecedented Stated of MK11

[JeffX]

I have a ton of likes from verbally curb stomping the community engineer. Clearly this site has a problem.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Haven't listened to the podcast yet but have read through this thread so I will give some thoughts and listen to that later. Coming from somebody who has played all of the games pretty seriously in some capacity and doesn't love MK11 all that much:

Complaining that the OS is unintentional and doesn't count as tech because it is a bug or whatever is a stupid argument. Pretty much all tech is unintentional in most fighting games. An extreme example of this from our scene is when NRS was trying to patch out Cyrax resets in mk9 players intentionally hid new resets they found until after NRS patched the game so that they could keep them. Labbing and finding tech is often times at odds with the "intentions" of the developer because anything you find that they didn't want in the game messes with their intended balance. But that is fine because the game itself doesn't have intentions like the developer does - it just exists and your job as a competitive player is to use all of the tools in the game to win. So the distinction between "tech and "bug" is a meaningless one. The point is people are finding new tools to win with still.

"Depth" is a more challenging and nuanced thing to discuss in fighting games than we like to admit. A common thing we see complained about in MK11 are jump kicks - I certainly don't like them. But over time we are going to start dealing with them in particular and very granular ways. Whatever solutions you come up with affect every other aspect of the game. In mk9, a game we often talk about how great AAs were, the meta meaningfully changed in some pretty interesting ways once people started using jump kicks to challenge AAs. The spacing game became notably different which ended up opening up a sort of mix up between early JiK and deep JiK for huge frame advantage. Kenshi was a nonsense character in a lot of ways in that game but one of the huge reasons why he was so good was that he did not have to deal with the spaced crossover jump in that was really difficult to anti air due to your character not turning around in time, because he had an 8 frame armored spirit charge. I am not going to argue that MK11 has the depth of say Injustice 1 when it comes to labbing and tech and discovering new stuff. Like P2W said, we are not going to have Zod or Sinestro in this game who evolved a great deal throughout the game's life. I played wonder woman in that game, who we found new oki mix ups for like every day. But the lack of that doesn't mean there is a lack of depth - the depth is just in different, maybe more nuanced areas.

Outside of the discussion of MK11, I am just going to be straight up and tell people to be careful in how much they listen to a person like P2W. Since as long as I have been around in this community he has been known to purposefully get people riled up and has put forward some pretty disingenuous arguments in the past - in my opinion at least. He just tweeted this week complaining about the amount of "SJWs" on FGC twitter. And there have been numerous times I have heard about some really questionable stuff from him as well - in the vein of what Crimson Shadow just revealed in regards to him being banned and interactions with a female mod. I don't have receipts or proof or anything in regards to that so I am not looking to have the man banished from the community or something, and I actually think this kind of thread is valuable and is an important discussion. I would just say be careful about how much you buy into his narrative about the "TYM elite" and his attacks on people like Crimson Shadow because he very much seems to be the kind of person with a very specific sort of agenda.

 

[Hellbringer]

I remember p2w challenging someone, dont remember xho it was, for a 1000$ mm (hoping the other guy would decline obviously), then the day they had to play he lamed out with an excuse about being a doctor and had more important things to do then play. Yeah dont trust that fraud

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

as soon as the crazy starts happening; people start crying omg this game is so busted and broken with so much bullshit and why can't the game be more balanced. the crazy is what made mk fun and now part of the fun is slowly going away.

I said the same thing about Injustice 2 and got killed for it. Granted, it was BEAUTIFUL, and there were no Zod V Lex level bad MU's to speak of, but there was nothing to balance out the tedium of 50/50, Multiverse grinding, the formulaic "hit big BnB, include Background Bounces, and online Robin players. Interactibles and Stage Transitions were made to have far less of the damage and prominence they had in IJ1. Shit got boring.
When you make fighting games that play like they're on drugs (which MK9, IJ1, and MKXL all did) , it makes things questionable as hell when you try and sell an experience that feels relatively sober by comparison. Removing the crazy without adding back in to balance out the hype is bad news bears, and the swift coming and going of that game's lifespan is an example.

But I am just a Box. What do I know.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I said the same thing about Injustice 2 and got killed for it. Granted, it was BEAUTIFUL, and there were no Zod V Lex level bad MU's to speak of, but there was nothing to balance out the tedium of 50/50, Multiverse grinding, the formulaic "hit big BnB, include Background Bounces, and online Robin players. Interactibles and Stage Transitions were made to have far less of the damage and prominence they had in IJ1. Shit got boring.
When you make fighting games that play like they're on drugs (which MK9, IJ1, and MKXL all did) , it makes things questionable as hell when you try and sell an experience that feels relatively sober by comparison. Removing the crazy without adding back in to balance out the hype is bad news bears, and the swift coming and going of that game's lifespan is an example.

But I am just a Box. What do I know.

I'm gonna push back on the Inj2 being bland narrative just a little bit. At the end of the game's life we saw Joker and Black Canary winning tournaments, who have some of the most balls to the wall looping offense type kits. We saw Blue Beetle start to do well and that character had some crazy stuff going on. Robin consistently placed well and that character had some honest to god bullshit going on. Was the game as crazy as Injustice 1? Obviously not but it wasn't this dull slog it is described as. (It's also my favorite nrs game so I'm a little biased lol).

I think honestly some of us are just getting tired of the kind of bullshit we keep getting in these games. For me personally it feels like I've been around the block a hundred times with characters like Liu Kang and Sonya in mk11 because I spent years dealing with similar kinds of bullshit, more potent versions, in previous games. So when stuff is discovered in the newer games it doesn't feel all that new because we've seen it already over the years. That's just how it feels to me though and I know you've been around since mk9 at least as well so I'm curious what you think.

 

[REYTHEGREAT]

I just want to say that the to this day, the most fun I’ve ever had was when I was playing MK9. Broken or not, that game was fun to me. Then they started introducing variations in later MK games, and the fun began to disintegrate. Maybe, just maybe, the fact that these last newer MK games are dying faster is because of the variations system? Amongst other things of course.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I just want to say that the to this day, the most fun I’ve ever had was when I was playing MK9. Broken or not, that game was fun to me. Then they started introducing variations in later MK games, and the fun began to disintegrate. Maybe, just maybe, the fact that these last newer MK games are dying faster is because of the variations system? Amongst other things of course.

They aren't really dying faster though are they? Timeline wise it has seemed pretty consistent. Both injustice games have had shorter lifespans because people care more about MK in general in this community, but where are you getting the idea that the games are dying faster?

Also mk9 was a very exciting period of a huge growth in the community and in player skill. Like a lot of us were learning what frame data was for the first time. Now that things are more established and there is way more base knowledge in the community of course things are going to be less exciting and "fun". It's just different and that is okay.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I shouldn’t even have to do this, but I’m going to call out your nonsense because it has a way of spreading even when it’s untrue.

I have always found a way to provide missing links or help out where I can. The reason you don’t seem to know this is that I don’t go around trumpeting my actions. But since you keep asking, this goes way back:

-When CD Jr. missed reg for EVO I emailed the cannons and got him late reg’ed after the deadline so he could play
-When the Terry bros. were going to miss SCR last minute because they didn’t have money for the trip, I went out and Western Union’ed them the money so that they could make the tourney and play.
-When Blake was going to miss EVO because his transportation was falling apart I helped him out so that he could go
-I helped pay 16 Bit’s registration for SCR in Injustice so that he could make the tourney.
-When Triforce screwed KDZ I paid his fee for TFC so that he could go. He ended up winning the entire thing.
-When Pig held an online tourney to get someone (ultimately Madzin) to MLG, and Hatake Osawa screwed Pig out of the money needed for Madzin to go, I donated the rest of Hatake’s share so that Madzin could travel.
-When Pig used his 4G to save the stream at Final Round I sent him money for the overages on his cell phone bill.
-When NEC reg. was low I gave BigE $250 to add to the pot bonus to help encourage people to make it out.
-When NLBC reg. for our games was flagging I sent Art money for a bonus to try to get people out.
-When Injustice dropped and no one was watching the locals, I started doing big writeups of WNF and NLBC every week to get people interested in tuning into weekly local streams. It became a thing and it worked.
-I have made adjustments, fixes, etc. to TYM for years, for free, because I believe in this community, and I also believe that you should give back to the places where you hang out, instead of just complaining and dunping your trash there. Remember when Storms debuted this new layout and it was somewhat of a mess, and then it slowly started to come together and take people’s feedback into account? Who do you think made a lot of those adjustments?Yeah. I was up late every night writing CSS code, debugging issues, and editing Xenforo templates to try to improve things for you guys.

Behind the scenes, in the conversations you guys don’t see, I’ve also fought to do stuff to make this a better place. The reason people can now freely post podcasts when that was once an issue is that I put my modship on the line, to demand that people be able to speak freely even if they criticized TYM in the broadcast. People like you and Dave.

The reason that You. Are. Here. is that I made a case for unbanning you and giving you a second chance, after you were permed for PM’ing a female mod with some vulgar stuff. Don’t forget that.

None of this is about the normal ‘mod’ stuff, which also has plenty of days where you’d just like to go play or get some sleep, but you end up helping someone who can’t register, has an issue with something, needs to change their email, or wants their thread cleaned up. Everything above is just extra.

So don’t talk to me about changing titles.. The common thread in this is that I’ve always done things to help solve problems for other people. I haven’t asked for a single thing for myself. I don’t own this site, but the community is my passion. I’d love to see you do something with it other than complain.

Anyways. Glad to see so many people in this thread agree with me and calling you out. And I made it about two sentences into your response and really just don’t care.

 

[Badboy Takuma]

I remember p2w challenging someone, dont remember xho it was, for a 1000$ mm (hoping the other guy would decline obviously), then the day they had to play he lamed out with an excuse about being a doctor and had more important things to do then play. Yeah dont trust that fraud

p2w was s tier on mk server trash for a reason.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I wish I could keep crimson out of my threads that generate a lot of positive discussion bc he always tries to shill for NRS and throws the threads off. Some community engineer for ya.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I just want to say that the to this day, the most fun I’ve ever had was when I was playing MK9. Broken or not, that game was fun to me. Then they started introducing variations in later MK games, and the fun began to disintegrate. Maybe, just maybe, the fact that these last newer MK games are dying faster is because of the variations system? Amongst other things of course.

Exactly. I think we didn’t know what we were asking for and NRS finally gave it to us.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Hot Take: the drama in this thread/argument is becoming more interesting to me than Kombat League.

Here's to hoping this argument gets big enough to get noticed. It worked in MKX when we finally got GGPO and the world rejoyced; this can happen, too. Not even full all legal moves if it's not time. Just change it up. Add more spice. Give Noob back his Portals. Bring back NJP combos. Idk. Let my ballbusting never be confused with actual dislike; I want this game to be its best self. And I know it can be better than the best character in the game's most effective tool being...123 Double Bicycle Kick. Sorry. That's lame. You couldn't even PLAY Liu Kang in MKX at a serious level unless you were crisp as crisps with your execution. And there's a lack of crazy - the crazy that's made NRS games hype in the past, but keeps taking hits in the name of balance - that hasn't been balanced out in meta or mechanics. This game needs some more crazy. But that is only my opinion, and I am only a Box.

Also, on an unrelated note, I really wish New York would make a comeback. If I'd lived in Pelham Bay then rather than now, it could've been a different world. Sheeeeeit...

It’s why I hope someone like @UltraDavid discusses the issue and advocates for full customization.

 

[Cigretts]

Dude go

So let's see:

-EVO was the biggest tournament ever in history for one of our games
-Celtic Throwdown was universally agreed to be hype
-Dreamhack was incredibly hype
-Destroyer's qualifiers have been hype

-We have a burgeoning rivalry between Sonic and Ninjakilla
-We have new(er) blood tearing stuff up with Deoxys and others

But "the fire in our community"

Right..

You're trying so hard to force the scene to be dead, when the tournament circuit is actually doing better than it has in years.

GO AWAY YOU 12 YR OLD

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Anyways. Glad to see so many people in this thread agree with me and calling you out. And I made it about two sentences into your response and really just don’t care.

That's a nice way of saying, "I can't actually argue with anything you're saying logically, so I'm just going to avoid it and make myself look foolish"

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Instead of creating another thread, I will post the link here. REO, Slips, Tom, and I discuss this thread and some of the reactions in the most recent episode of our podcast. If you have some time to spare, listen in.

added to OP

 

[Cigretts]

Thank you for this post I havent played the game in months and this is the reason. BLAND. Boring no potential characters, bare bones ass fighting game.

Try playing smash and then play this game, the level of fun is lacking. Be honest with yourself people there is so much CREATIVITY in other fighting games and mk11 is not fun or rewarding.

 

[lionheart21]

Anyways. Glad to see so many people in this thread agree with me and calling you out. And I made it about two sentences into your response and really just don’t care.

Judging by your join date, you gotta be at least in your early 30s. If that's the case....god I pity you for having such an immature mindset for your age.

 

[Cigretts]

Of course ironically crimsonloser doesnt realize this post is meant to motivate people who have actually enjoyed these games for years and contributed to character guides and threads unlike his constant denial which is pushing people away from this website and community lmao

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Of course ironically crimsonloser doesnt realize this post is meant to motivate people who have actually enjoyed these games for years and contributed to character guides and threads unlike his constant denial which is pushing people away from this website and community lmao

yep, again I am so happy with the discussion the OP has generated and hope it can make our game better in the long run.

 

[Tony at Home]

Of course ironically crimsonloser doesnt realize this post is meant to motivate people who have actually enjoyed these games for years and contributed to character guides and threads unlike his constant denial which is pushing people away from this website and community lmao

It's not. P2W has a long history of being the thread posting equivalent to a venereal disease. Also get off your hidey account

 

[JeffX]

Judging by your join date, you gotta be at least in your early 30s. If that's the case....god I pity you for having such an immature mindset for your age.

Eh early 30's is basically like your mid to late 20's. I'm 29 and feel no different than when i was 21. Better job, more patient, stable relationship, better sense of prioritization. But there's nothing he said that would suggest he's any more immature than most of this site's moderators. Let's not play the ageism game. As you get older, you basically feel the same, but you just start thinking, man where did the time go.

 

[Groove Heaven]

I really liked the REO/Dave/Slips/Brady podcast, at least a lot more than this shitty thread. I half-agree with P2W and some of the discussion here is good but it's not worth wading through all the whining and catfighting that it instantly turned into.

OT: NRS set out to make a game that wasn't tech heaped on tech like MKX and swung a little bit too far in the other direction, I'll agree with that. They wanted the neutral chess game like SF that favors reads and conditioning over setplay, and they built what I think is a great skeleton of a game, but what they built on it sucks. The anti-airs are bad, the hitboxes are bad, some of the mechanics are wack as hell, and there are still a bunch of characters with "fuck neutral" tools. I have zero faith these issues will be fixed.

 

[lionheart21]

Eh early 30's is basically like your mid to late 20's. I'm 29 and feel no different than when i was 21. Better job, more patient, stable relationship, better sense of prioritization. But there's nothing he said that would suggest he's any more immature than most of this site's moderators. Let's not play the ageism game. As you get older, you basically feel the same, but you just start thinking, man where did the time go.

And I'm nearly 34 and I know a bullshitter when I see one.

If a person is given a second chance, the mature thing is to use that for good, not to try pissing on the feet of the person that gave you the second chance since they could always take that second chance away.

 

[Gooberking]

I think it's fairly safe to say the discussion is over, and we've moved full on into the insults and character assassination phase from which a topic rarely recovers.

 

[Cigretts]

It's not. P2W has a long history of being the thread posting equivalent to a venereal disease. Also get off your hidey account

Who cares man it's a site about a game I joined to discuss tech in mk9. Theres no tech in this game to talk about which is why all that's left are people crying about other people