(Discussion) The Unprecedented Stated of MK11

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I feel like there's a major flaw in the argument that "no new tech is coming out, the game is dead". You mentioned Injustice with the game developing a lot over the course of 3 years, which is true.

Well we're 5 months into the game right now. How do we know that there isn't gonna be major meta/tech developments over the rest of the game's life? Feel like we're calling it too early when we say stuff like that, especially seeing as there actually IS new developments with the Raptor OS which was discovered like a week ago.

I am basing this off a few things. Mainly the freedom the engine allows. IT is very clear that most characers combo potential and strategies are max'ed out. Just look at highborn. Its b13 razor over and over and over and over. Look at skarlet? I mean look at geras,

I am also not convinced the raptor OS is all that it appears to be at face value though time will tell.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Yes I am definitely part of the TYM hierarchy whatever the fuck that is. Im probably hte top of it too so you better watch the fuck out or ill use my powers on you

ignored.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Posting this after a universal string OS is found and complaining about tech hmm

I am not sure you understand the depth of my arguement and the "OS tech" is not tech it is a glitch that will likely be removed and I am not convinced it will have a major effect like everyone is talking about. i think the community was so elated to finally see something for the game it got blown out of proportion.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Bro get a life. Anyone with any capacity to think knows this man is right on the money and you instant transmission right over to this thread to pull your patented NRS shilling. He's right about lack of variety and character depth. There's not much of anything worthwhile to explore in the lab as far as BnBs are concerned etc etc.

You're telling me that a rivalry between Sonic Fox and NinjaKilla (there isn't much of one), is somehow a measure of NRS's success producing a deep fighting game? What?! I'd suggest studying for the LSAT's logical reasoning section just to help you out in life, because your premise to conclusion flow is non-existent.

Just to give you some analogous context: Say they announce a new package of Starbursts, and every flavor in the pack is grape flavored. Playing to Win says this package has no variety, and your response is.. are you kidding me, they're selling like hotcakes, and there's a rivalry between them and Wildberry Skittles. So you're either a desperate shill or you may be in fact be genuinely that challenged, but I suspect it's the former. This is not a way to get a job at a company if that's what you're hoping for, my guy.

this is a mic drop if i have ever seen one. i read it like 10 times. holy crap

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

How exactly is the game maxed out? I think you’re not looking hard enough. I have played Cassie since day 1 and I still find new strategies to use with her.

You sound like you’re stuck to your way of thinking. The reason people don’t discover new things and play characters differently or even think outside of the box is because they think there’s only one way to play a certain character. The only people who don’t think that way, are the ones who win tourneys, like Sonic Fox.

If you want to succeed and keep things fresh, you gotta be unpredictable. The pros who are doing bad in this game are playing predictably and have your exact mentality.

The game allows for very very little freedom in its engine. can you give examples of things you are learning everyday?

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Fantastic post, @PLAYING TO WIN
Even though this topic is probably going to get trolled to death before it gathers any significant speed.

Also: no shit, the e-sports half of this game looks like its doing well. That's what happens when your game has money behind it (not saying it isn't great in its own ways, it VERY very much is and Noob Saibot is life, I'm just saying you can make garbage look like gold when you have WB house money behind you).

The shady rollout tactics and complete lack of transparency as far as all the problems the game has (and we, the players, have with it) told me everything I needed to know about how this would all go. But we're the assholes when we critique and point out the absurdity that are as obvious as a fucking hole in the wall.

My money says that once the Year One DLC wave is over and the money has been made, THEN we'll get our fully open builds that we should've had in the first place, and everyone will be bitching about how we're losing a whole year of meta having to learn extra stuff and blah blah boo hoo.
In a world where games like Tekken and KOF exist, the fact that the argument against full customization I've seen the most has been "wahhh, everyone will have so much matchup stuff to learn" makes me simultaneously want to puke on someone's shoes.

Anyway...well said, P2W.

The game was advertised for months and months about "full customization". Although its entire competitive community was asking how things would work in tournament play NRS blatantly ignored its most dedicated fan base. We were all jacked up thinking there was going to be a tremendous amount of freedom in the engine to hearing we would have less variations than MKX. THe shady rollout was a huge PR fail. THere are so many awesome moves that are never displayed. Think of all the time/money/animation that is never on display for the biggest stages of the game?

 

[LEGEND]

P2W's original post has alot of hyperbole but the sentiment is spot on. Way less depth and much less dynamic of a game than the previous NRS titles. Custom variations would help a little bit but imo doesn't solve the problem. Heavy changes are required across the board if we want it back to pace of previous titles

I played the game pretty regularly for the first month of the games life, after coming back to civilization late August I checked up on it through any means I could ( tym, twitter, YouTube etc) expecting there to be Alot of growth and interesting stuff to lab, but imo the growth was very small. I don't hate the game, but it's entertainment factor is disappointing for sure.

I will say that the forums for MK11 are pretty much dead everywhere too. Idk if this is a direct result of the game's lack of depth or just a changing of the times, but it'd be nice to have a single place to go for information again.

Lastly, mentioning a games tournament numbers doesn't address the intended conversation. The point of the OP as I understand it is to address the lack of growth at the pace we are used to seeing, and talk about what WE could do to fix that. If we all voiced the same opinion ( such as the characters should have more tools and options as an example) then maybe NRS will start patching the game in that direction.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

@PLAYING TO WIN I'm glad to see you talking about this, but I personally think your perception of what this game lacks is a bit off. Customization would just seal the games fate faster.

MK11's problem is that it doesn't have options in the moment to moment gameplay. There's one strategy, play a character with fast mids, an auto shimmy and throws that give oki. Are you not playing those characters? Well get fucked, you're handicapping yourself.

Combine this with the crackhead movement that makes the stages extremely claustrophobic (this game, when factoring in the movement, has less room to move around and position than even MKX),

I think this game would've been a lot better if it had no breakaway, if U2's and U3's were universalized to 6f u3's and 9f u2's, you made the u2's do 10%, KB damage across the entire cast was nerfed significantly while being made way more accessible.

And the final nail in the coffin for this game is NRS claiming they are using "data" to balance this game (as stated in the first patch Kombat Kast). This is code for "we only look at usage percentages/win loss rates" instead of them having a vision and trying to make the game conform to it's original vision (which by the way, it doesn't even now). This means we will never see underused characters get the buffs they need, because instead of them aiming to make this a complete, diverse gameplay experience, their just going to balance to the established meta and nothing else. It's depressing.

Customs wouldn't fix this. A lot of the unused moves are trash. A lot of characters already have their best variations. NRS didn't design these characters to make all these moves equally work and it's pretty obvious to me they put zero thought into this.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

@PLAYING TO WIN Good to see your face around here again. You hit the nail on the head, and the wave of post-injustice era posters telling you that you're an idiot speaks volumes to the current state of the community. Everyone used to complain how toxic we were, and now it's a race to who can be the most pathetic.

It is hard man. It is like the 09er generation coming in and telling the 3rd strike era they don't know anything. My goal is to try and bridge the gap and get them to see that other games allowed for so much more freedom. Seeing people play 4-5 characters at a high level is supremely lame. The game is very much paper rock scissors. The top tier in this game break archetypes in that you have amazing rush down characters with top tier zoning. In mk9, i1, mkx you have players with one or two viable tournament characters bc of the level of investment they required. Same with sf4/5 and tekken. Seeing top players with rosters of 5 or 6 characters is just supported my point in the games simplicity.

but ya i am around and i still play. i have been wanting to make a post about this for a long time but was waiting. hope all is well!

 

[NYCj360]

I agree with the system being a hindrance to cool combos and neat tech to come out that keeps people interested.

I do agree with crimson also that the competetive scene is striving much better with the inclusion of the audience outside of the hardcore nrs players.

I will say that matchups are not so black and white and i still feel like the variable nature of defense in this game is where the depth lies. Matchups require a serious amount of labbing,

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I agree with the system being a hindrance to cool combos and neat tech to come out that keeps people interested.

I do agree with crimson also that the competetive scene is striving much better with the inclusion of the audience outside of the hardcore nrs players.

I will say that matchups are not so black and white and i still feel like the variable nature of defense in this game is where the depth lies. Matchups require a serious amount of labbing,

This is actually a bill though.

The returns on flawless blocking are HORRIBLE. It's ALWAYS better to just block and guess. 2 bars for 9% +10 or 5% launcher that gets broken immediately. The return is awful. The "depth" might be there, but it's not worth exploring optimally.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Quoting the moments that I think were the real inspirations for this post, more than MK11 itself. It's totally fine if you don't like a game or don't want to/can't compete anymore, or if you want to be nostalgic for the times when you liked the game or wanted to/could compete, and imo it'd be fine to talk about that. But the rest of this is just not right. There are still new combos, mixups, and tech coming out all the time, including the option select tech that Raptor rediscovered just last week or whenever. There are more people playing, competing in, and watching MK now than ever before. There are more strong top level players than ever before, and some of them do have very interesting rivalries.

I really like MK11; personally my favorite NRS game ever is either MK11 or Injustice 2. It's definitely true that it has less wild stuff in it, but I also feel it allows for a very high amount of personal expression. Again it's totally fine if you don't like it or feel nostalgia for the past (we're around the same age, I know that nostalgic feeling well too), but I wish your post had been more up front about your subjective views than trying to seem objective.

My friend. I hope all is well and thank you for bringing your professionalism to our scene as always! I am glad to see you still come to the forum and I wish others would to. I wonder and talk about that with my core group sometimes concerning the nostalgia. It is why I didn't make this post for a long time. After discussing it with many current top players and old guard I was surprised to see how much they agreed and are bored with the game.

On a few points I think we will have to agree to disagree. The new combos/tech/mix coming out regularly as you state is really not the case my man! I am keeping a close pulse on the game and the level of engagement just 5 months into the games life is at an all time low relative to previous titles. Many characters are literally maxed out. IMO it is because of the lack of creatively the engine provides.

I think you probably like mk11 the best because it is actually the most balanced version of an NRS game we have ever had. I just wish it wasn't at the expense of the games depth. As I said in the OP, I would almost rather see some of the wacky stuff than what we got.

Bringing objectiveness in a discussion like this is very difficult. I would have to empirically cite stream views, some how count new characters combos and strategies. As in all games it has always been a subjective discussion. I am relying on my experience in the scene to support many of my opinions that are shared by a scary amount of top players.

As you are such a voice in the entire FGC I think you can really bring some attention to a subject that I think you can agree on. Should we allow full customization in tournament play? I would love to hear you get a few different advocates to delve into the discussion. I think this would solve a lot of issues I currently have with the games current feel. Thoughts?

 

[NYCj360]

This is actually a bill though.

The returns on flawless blocking are HORRIBLE. It's ALWAYS better to just block and guess. 2 bars for 9% +10 or 5% launcher that gets broken immediately. The return is awful. The "depth" might be there, but it's not worth exploring optimally.

Flawless blocking changes frame data for specific moves all across the cast. Some not even requiring meter for a punish. It is not a bill.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

P2W's original post has alot of hyperbole but the sentiment is spot on. Way less depth and much less dynamic of a game than the previous NRS titles. Custom variations would help a little bit but imo doesn't solve the problem. Heavy changes are required across the board if we want it back to pace of previous titles

I played the game pretty regularly for the first month of the games life, after coming back to civilization late August I checked up on it through any means I could ( tym, twitter, YouTube etc) expecting there to be Alot of growth and interesting stuff to lab, but imo the growth was very small. I don't hate the game, but it's entertainment factor is disappointing for sure.

I will say that the forums for MK11 are pretty much dead everywhere too. Idk if this is a direct result of the game's lack of depth or just a changing of the times, but it'd be nice to have a single place to go for information again.

Lastly, mentioning a games tournament numbers doesn't address the intended conversation. The point of the OP as I understand it is to address the lack of growth at the pace we are used to seeing, and talk about what WE could do to fix that. If we all voiced the same opinion ( such as the characters should have more tools and options as an example) then maybe NRS will start patching the game in that direction.

Can you elaborate on hyperbole? I am not a journalists and my goal was to raise a discussion. Any thoughts on how it could have been better delivered? I dictate everything at work and have transcribers fix any errors. Medical language vs true journalism is very different.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

@PLAYING TO WIN I'm glad to see you talking about this, but I personally think your perception of what this game lacks is a bit off. Customization would just seal the games fate faster.

MK11's problem is that it doesn't have options in the moment to moment gameplay. There's one strategy, play a character with fast mids, an auto shimmy and throws that give oki. Are you not playing those characters? Well get fucked, you're handicapping yourself.

Combine this with the crackhead movement that makes the stages extremely claustrophobic (this game, when factoring in the movement, has less room to move around and position than even MKX),

I think this game would've been a lot better if it had no breakaway, if U2's and U3's were universalized to 6f u3's and 9f u2's, you made the u2's do 10%, KB damage across the entire cast was nerfed significantly while being made way more accessible.

And the final nail in the coffin for this game is NRS claiming they are using "data" to balance this game (as stated in the first patch Kombat Kast). This is code for "we only look at usage percentages/win loss rates" instead of them having a vision and trying to make the game conform to it's original vision (which by the way, it doesn't even now). This means we will never see underused characters get the buffs they need, because instead of them aiming to make this a complete, diverse gameplay experience, their just going to balance to the established meta and nothing else. It's depressing.

Customs wouldn't fix this. A lot of the unused moves are trash. A lot of characters already have their best variations. NRS didn't design these characters to make all these moves equally work and it's pretty obvious to me they put zero thought into this.

Another huge eports title that is suffering from horrendous balance by using only date is Clash Royale so I 100% get your point on this. I think many characters could be relevant lie kollector with that insane bola or skarlet with killer clot. A character like cetrion already has her best possible loadout and I would also say the same for lui among others.

I really am looking more at the games longevity. THese two current variations with a pending third may not give the game the appeal it needs to last 2-3 years. The full customization would imo.

 

[NYCj360]

Also for everyone pointing out that the os is a glitch has to realize that this os has been in every mk since 9 so it is indeed tech.

Also cyrax resets were a glitch as well, they were not tech.

 

[Groove Heaven]

Give every character a V-Trigger. Boom, problem solved. Jacqui gets aegis reflector, Cetrion gets Rashid's tornado, Kollector gets Laura mixups complete with titty jiggling.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Also for everyone pointing out that the os is a glitch has to realize that this os has been in every mk since 9 so it is indeed tech.

Also cyrax resets were a glitch as well, they were not tech.

I agree. Ppl knew about them but they really didn't impact the game all that much.

 

[Gooberking]

Flawless blocking changes frame data for specific moves all across the cast. Some not even requiring meter for a punish. It is not a bill.

This. Lots of things don't change, but some are more than negative enough to be full combo, full damage punishable. That includes FB'ing LK's plus on block nightmare and some other tempting to abuse strings. If they break away, they also lost meter and are stuck holding a KD situation instead of you just sitting there holding more stuff while hoping you can get/enforce your turn when it comes around. That all seems worth something.

FBing also feels great. I think it's one of the more interesting parts of the game. But I'm a poser so my opinion is probably whatever.

 

[JeffX]

U gon sit here and discriminate against OS tech? Tech is tech bruh.

Disagree. This isn't OS tech... Raptor's exploit is... AN EXPLOIT. If done properly, the need to hit confirm is removed entirely. It ought to be removed immediately, but considering it took NRS around 2 weeks to remove the forfeit glitch, we'll be sitting here with it for a while.

I don't know much about you other than you drop Cassie's BNB's at offline tournaments and you seem awfully sensitive, but I am curious when you started competing in NRS games? Mk9- I2 with all their problems had such a sense of discovery. From the different way you could capitalize on Smoke's vortex or Black Adam setups. Atom in Injustice 2 while annoying to play against had so much depth, resource management, and movement. While this game holds the player's hand at every available opportunity: the auto generating meter I feel was the first thing they got wrong. There's very little resource management other than deciding when or if you ought to break away.

This game feels like sex while wearing a straight jacket. "Oh I can still do all sorts of tech. I can kind of move this way if I... No, no that won't work. Well how bout if I... Nope. I guess I'll just lay here and see what happens..."

I'm happy for those who enjoy this game, really. I also like Ultra David as a commentator. But the game does hold your hand, is objectively very restrictive, and caters to a lazier audience that would rather mash triggers when their health bars get too low rather than manage resources throughout the duration of the match.

 

[NYCj360]

This. Lots of things don't change, but some are more than negative enough to be full combo, full damage punishable. That includes FB'ing LK's plus on block nightmare and some other tempting to abuse strings. If they break away, they also lost meter and are stuck holding a KD situation instead of you just sitting there holding more stuff while hoping you can get/enforce your turn when it comes around. That all seems worth something.

We're on the same page. I feel like future balancing efforts may revolve around changing certain strong moves negative frames when flawless blocked.

 

[LEGEND]

Can you elaborate on hyperbole? I am not a journalists and my goal was to raise a discussion. Any thoughts on how it could have been better delivered? I dictate everything at work and have transcribers fix any errors. Medical language vs true journalism is very different.

Can you elaborate on hyperbole? I am not a journalists and my goal was to raise a discussion. Any thoughts on how it could have been better delivered? I dictate everything at work and have transcribers fix any errors. Medical language vs true journalism is very different.

Using phrases like "maxed out" as if there is nothing at all to find and there is no new tech is going a bit far but I get what you meant.

 

[Juggs]

Also for everyone pointing out that the os is a glitch has to realize that this os has been in every mk since 9 so it is indeed tech.

Also cyrax resets were a glitch as well, they were not tech.

Yeah but it’s still classified as a glitch if it wasn’t intended. Kara Jabs and Glitch Jabs were in MK1-MK4 and they never were intended to be in the game. But as I said, they were prevalent in every single game until after MK4.

 

[NYCj360]

Yeah but it’s still classified as a glitch if it wasn’t intended. Kara Jabs and Glitch Jabs were in MK1-MK4 and they never were intended to be in the game. But as I said, they were prevalent in every single game until after MK4.

It's not the easiest thing for me to explain but it's part of the systems override build. It's engrained into the deepest part of the input engine and was built into the new gen engine. Glitch jabs were still called glitch jabs but were still part of the meta and were essential to competetive play no? Similar to wave dashing or block cancelling in Ssbm.

I'm not trying to make an argument in its defense or anything. But this isnt any different than OS grabs in sf4 or lingering armor cancels in previous mk games. All exploits bur still deemed tech.

 

[Peckapowa]

The issue is nether realm isn't gifted, creative, or experienced enough to design both rewarding, intelligent and innovative fighting game play at a strategic level. I'm sure the bureaucracy of the company plays a role and hinders this, but they simply aren't innovative and when they come up with something they fail to execute