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Turning Liu Kangs F43xx Tools Against Him (Short Guide)

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
There has been a ton of hate surrounding Liu Kang's F43xx mix known as:
F43U3 (plus on block string with 10f gap)
F43xxParry
F43xxAmpedLowFireball
F4 Stagger into Throw

Many incorrectly state this as a true 50/50 guess game for the opponent.
Well I'm here to tell you, this can be turned against him and its not what is scary about Lohan Quan Liu Kang.

Many players think its wise to always punish his F43(gap)U3 string with pokes or standing 7f starters. Well its not the best option. Its because you get beat by the other options. You can do D3 which will beat Parry and F43U3 but it still gets beat by F4xxThrow and F43xxLowFireball.

What you need to know is 3 of his 4 options are reactable. So by understanding this you can punish him 75% if the time instead of 25-50% of the time.


You can do this one of two ways:
1. By using the OS that beats 4 of Liu Kang's options after F43xx

2. by waiting until the moves are in recovery.


The F43xx OS:
You hold crouch block until the first hit of amped low fireball Is blocked then let go of block and keep holding block and just be paitent and observe what comes next and punish them on reaction. This OS beats the following options when canceled off F43:
  • F43xxParry
  • F43xxAmpedLFB
  • F43xxAmpedHFB
  • F43 throw
F43xxParry has 30+ recovery when you just watch it happen allowing you to do any starter after the parry ends for full combo punish.

F43xx LowFireball option is punishable by waiting just like the other options but by ducking the Amped high fireball and punishing with a move faster than 15f startup with a bit of distance. Nightwolf's F12, Subs B3/S3 and any 9f advancing mid will do most characters have an answer to this.

His F4 stagger into throw has recognizable delay between the kicks and throw allowing you to recognize what's coming and duck the throw for full punish. Its more than 30f recovery.

A good example of this is in Rooflemonger guide to countering liu kang (TheNewEvil):



Examples:



Obviously I can only set the AI to playback 4 options, I've cycled through 20 different combinations and every time I can react to most of it at worst its all punishable on read.
What I think isn't reactable is F4 into Throw/F4 stagger into F43. I can't tell the difference between throw/button after the delay. So luck every character you can be mixed up.
Is it all lost? NO its not that's where player tendencies come into play. Every player has patterns and some players may do F4 intimate throw or some may do F4 into buttons but you can identify patterns and use this guide as a way to punish most of liu kangaroo options and since you are scouting patterns its in your favor.
The Above Videos:
I have the above recordings set to Random Hidden Playback so there is no way I can possibly know what's coming, as you can see I'm consistently punishing all of these options. Its because its reactable when they use only these options and counter able at a high level.
F43xx anything Is punishable!
Record Liu doing this in practice and find ways to counter these options and you will turn one of his strongest buttons against him. And destroy nearly every KL Liu Kang in existence.

Wiffing issues with F43 mix vs Crouch Block:


Thanks to @Kindred
We have video evidence.

Is Also I guide on Noble| Raptors (Kombat Academy) which shows you how to make F43 wiff so you can punish it:
This is not the only thing in KA by Raptor he has tons of guides for every character. I encourage all to use this resource to learn and improve. Like making unsafe strings safe with a universal OS.


A fellow TYMer I won't name had issues finding a way to punish his Amped Fireball with Sub Zero Dead Of Winter so I'll leave this here for Sub mains to try:


Notes:
If liu Kang does any string canceled into Amped HighFireballs its punishable as displayed in the first clip. The 3rd hit has a gap in the blockstuns that you can duck for a full combo punish on reaction. If you are having issues identifying that special move compared to others you will need to practice with AI set on hidden playback with 4differnent options until you can consistently punish it on reaction. Build up your muscle memory until its natural.

What actually makes liu Kang scary is he gets amazing damage and pressure from his actual staggers:
B1 (-4 on block, -3 at max range)
12 (+3 on block)
B34 (-2 on block)
212 (-2 on block) /2121
Not to mention he has a +3 on block auto shimmy that jails from his pokes. Very strong and some characters have trouble dealing with that.

He has amazing:
A2A's
FB combos
Wakeup
AAs
Crossover conversions
Corner damage
Midscreen damage
Oki and restands
Pokes
Jailing
Plus frames
9f mids
Safe hurtboxes vs certain characters (after throwing and using certain strings his body leans back where some characters wiff on punish)

Literally everything you need plus more. The liu Kang's that scare me aren't the F4 only players its the ones that utilize all of his tools.


Something to watch out for is that he has an 8f startup parry that launches and can beat wake up's (U3's) not to mention he can reversal through several gaps so don't use your plus frames on him otherwise you are eating insane damage


That's 330 easy damage from exploiting a gap that can be buffered to come out easily between strings that have at least 8f gaps and keep in mind that is nowhere near optimal and includes 1Bar, and a FB nets him over 480. He gets about 400+ for bar and KB without Fatal if he uses it on your WU U+3
Easy KB was set to on in that last video so the 600 isn't possible in gaps but the same damage is possible for Krushing wakups. I'll leave the video so you can get an idea of how much damage LK can get from countering wakeup easy and even up to 730 damage if the liu Kang has execution.

His weaknesses:
He lacks range and suffers when players space correctly even on his -2 staggers you can walk back or wave dash back to force wiff punish. His F4 and B1 have less range than several D3's so use that to your advantage. If he reads you will back dash he can use B34 which has his best range but is slow to the start at 16f startup so you can counter that by Neutral jumping into a full combo punish.

Beating Liu Kang is about spacing properly and choosing the right times to punish and knowing what's in your favor to actually punish. He is definitely top 5 but beatable if you play the matchup right.

Hope this helped someone deal with Liu Kang better!
 
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Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Very good post!

I would add that his midscreen damage isnt that crazy, hence why he needs all these options to open people up. Ignoring his KBs, his F3333 leads to the most dmg midscreen if I recall correctly. His main damage is going to come from his KBs and his corner game.

Overall though, everything he has, as illustrated by @LawAbidingCitizen , has a counter and it's all about choosing your moment and recognizing patterns of your opponent. Just like most MUs really
 
Great post. I’m still fairly new to Liu as well as MK. I mained Sonya then switch to Liu when I got his skin from the gauntlet.

What is an auto shimmy? I’ve been hearing that a lot recently.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
Great post. I’m still fairly new to Liu as well as MK. I mained Sonya then switch to Liu when I got his skin from the gauntlet.

What is an auto shimmy? I’ve been hearing that a lot recently.
An auto shimmy is a move that has an animation similar to that of a throw. At a higher level players will mistake the AS as a throw and get opened up. So in other words its a 50/50 tool when players are trying to punish your moves by making reads. Since high level players don't usually throw out unsafe moves making reads is the best way to open up players of that caliber.

Examples of Auto Shimmy's are:

Liu Kang's 12 (is only an auto Shimmy when its jailed from pokes) since 12 are both highs and don't catch ducking opponents unless its jailed.
Shangs 11
Cassie's 111

I think there are videos on this topic by Waz and STB Kompetitor.

TLDR;
Its a fast starter that looks very similar to a throw animation that makes the opponent duck opening them up for full combo.
 
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MrArcher15

Kombatant
Something I’ve been thinking of but need to actual test is to see if you do exactly what you stated but when you see him about to end with u3, quickly flawless block. I think it’s possible cuz of the long noticeable wind up of the u3 in f4u3 compared to how quickly all his other options come out (fireball, parry etc)
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
Can u flawless block after liu kang does f43u3 or does that only work if he messes up his timing when he follows up with f43?
FRom what I know you can't. Liu Kang can micro-dash after F43U3 into F4 which cuts off a few frames with the dash cancel and its already plus so it makes it incredibly hard

Like what Prof said it doesn't actually cut off frames the F4 is still 9f startup but being +3 and microdashing within 1-2 frames essentially makes the opponent need a 6-7 frame moves.
 
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LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
Something I’ve been thinking of but need to actual test is to see if you do exactly what you stated but when you see him about to end with u3, quickly flawless block. I think it’s possible cuz of the long noticeable wind up of the u3 in f4u3 compared to how quickly all his other options come out (fireball, parry etc)
Its a ten frame gap so I think you can FB it but never tried in sets, I either punished it one to get them to throw out the other unsafe options or ignored it and scouted the throw.
 

MrArcher15

Kombatant
Its a ten frame gap so I think you can FB it but never tried in sets, I either punished it one to get them to throw out the other unsafe options or ignored it and scouted the throw.
Oh I know you can flawless block it I just don’t know if I’ll be able to keep blocking I’m case of fireballs or parries, and also be prepared to flawless block it too. Normally I just commit to holding block or making a read that he’ll do f43u3
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
FRom what I know you can't. Liu Kang can micro-dash after F43U3 into F4 which cuts off a few frames with the dash cancel and its already plus so it makes it incredibly hard
No, the Micro dash ADDS frames. No way it wouldn’t, frames are literally the measure of passing animations. Dashing into things makes more animation before the move starts. I’ve definitely been flawless block reversal out of the perfect f43 follow up by DJT.
 

PreNerf_

No labels
Can u flawless block after liu kang does f43u3 or does that only work if he messes up his timing when he follows up with f43?
Yes you can fb it... Like @LawAbidingCitizen said, it's safer to wait for the other moves on the end of f43 and not punish the gap but yes you can flawless the gap, you can fatal blow the gap. Good Liu Kang players use all of his tools cause good opponents will punish everything on his f43 gap. He has tones of great buttons, staggers, plus strings and mind games that most liu kang players don't use.most people think that a Liu Kang player can just abuse f43 ... When they do that they are easily beatable.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
No, the Micro dash ADDS frames. No way it wouldn’t, frames are literally the measure of passing animations. Dashing into things makes more animation before the move starts. I’ve definitely been flawless block reversal out of the perfect f43 follow up by DJT.
Yes I corrected my previous statement you are correct. It doesn't cut off frames its the plus frames that does it making them need a faster move to interrupt and they basically need to be frame perfect.
 

greeneless

Apprentice
Can u flawless block after liu kang does f43u3 or does that only work if he messes up his timing when he follows up with f43?
Does fb even work on F4 in general? It’s two hits, you can’t fb the second hit so if it’s staggered block adv is the same. Does a double hitting normal beat fb+u3? I’m honestly not sure
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
Does fb even work on F4 in general? It’s two hits, you can’t fb the second hit so if it’s staggered block adv is the same. Does a double hitting normal beat fb+u3? I’m honestly not sure
FB beats double hit. It has armor and has a buffer window to launch. I have yet to be knocked out of a Flawless Block U+3.
 

kcd117

Kombatant
That is some good info and informative guide to help players struggling against him, good stuff! However, I don't really think this becomes a less lopsided 50/50 when you know your options, especially after F4.

Let's take a more in-depth look at his F4:

F4 is a 9 frame advancing mid with decent range that sits at -7 on block with very little blockstun. F43 is the extension of F4, it comes out in 13 frames and is very hit confirmable.

By the game's math, an F4 stagger followed by another F4 takes 16 frames to come out, only 3 frames more than the gapless F43. It is humanly impossible to react to an F4, as 13 frames is a barely recognizable, add to it the time to recognize and act accordingly and Liu is already at frame advantage again. You have to commit in order to beat him. You can't just wait and react, and if you are wrong, congratulations, you just took a bike kick into basically guaranteed meaty jik oki and have to guess between strike or 50/50 throw KBs with a throw loop.

F4 into D1 takes 14 frames to come out and beats highs, so if your character doesn't have a fast mid to commit to after an F4, chances are a smart Liu player will steal the turn with this move after an F4. For many characters, the only option to avoid this is to poke. In this case, if you guess right, the turn is yours, if you guess wrong, he either combos you or takes his turn back putting you in the same shitty situation.

F4 into throw comes out in 17 frames and beats any late normal. If you guess right here you can get a decent punish by ducking it, but if you guess wrong... take that full combo into same shitty spot again.

This is just his F4, I'm not even mentioning the layers on his B1, B3, F3, B2, 12, etc...

Liu and Jacqui are the only characters in the game to make you go through this amount of layers of guessing just to get your turn. You have to guess for your life to get a chance to play the game and this is not fun, not fair and not even remotely balanced.

I consider myself pretty good at playing this matchup, good at recognizing patterns, very well-versed at flawless blocking the shit out of everything this character does on hit/block/oki, but I just can't get comfortable with the amount of guessing I'm doing every time this potato touches me.
 

SwiftEagle

Apprentice
That is some good info and informative guide to help players struggling against him, good stuff! However, I don't really think this becomes a less lopsided 50/50 when you know your options, especially after F4.

Let's take a more in-depth look at his F4:

F4 is a 9 frame advancing mid with decent range that sits at -7 on block with very little blockstun. F43 is the extension of F4, it comes out in 13 frames and is very hit confirmable.

By the game's math, an F4 stagger followed by another F4 takes 16 frames to come out, only 3 frames more than the gapless F43. It is humanly impossible to react to an F4, as 13 frames is a barely recognizable, add to it the time to recognize and act accordingly and Liu is already at frame advantage again. You have to commit in order to beat him. You can't just wait and react, and if you are wrong, congratulations, you just took a bike kick into basically guaranteed meaty jik oki and have to guess between strike or 50/50 throw KBs with a throw loop.

F4 into D1 takes 14 frames to come out and beats highs, so if your character doesn't have a fast mid to commit to after an F4, chances are a smart Liu player will steal the turn with this move after an F4. For many characters, the only option to avoid this is to poke. In this case, if you guess right, the turn is yours, if you guess wrong, he either combos you or takes his turn back putting you in the same shitty situation.

F4 into throw comes out in 17 frames and beats any late normal. If you guess right here you can get a decent punish by ducking it, but if you guess wrong... take that full combo into same shitty spot again.

This is just his F4, I'm not even mentioning the layers on his B1, B3, F3, B2, 12, etc...

Liu and Jacqui are the only characters in the game to make you go through this amount of layers of guessing just to get your turn. You have to guess for your life to get a chance to play the game and this is not fun, not fair and not even remotely balanced.

I consider myself pretty good at playing this matchup, good at recognizing patterns, very well-versed at flawless blocking the shit out of everything this character does on hit/block/oki, but I just can't get comfortable with the amount of guessing I'm doing every time this potato touches me.
You forgot to mention it's also an anti air.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
That is some good info and informative guide to help players struggling against him, good stuff! However, I don't really think this becomes a less lopsided 50/50 when you know your options, especially after F4.

Let's take a more in-depth look at his F4:

F4 is a 9 frame advancing mid with decent range that sits at -7 on block with very little blockstun. F43 is the extension of F4, it comes out in 13 frames and is very hit confirmable.

By the game's math, an F4 stagger followed by another F4 takes 16 frames to come out, only 3 frames more than the gapless F43. It is humanly impossible to react to an F4, as 13 frames is a barely recognizable, add to it the time to recognize and act accordingly and Liu is already at frame advantage again. You have to commit in order to beat him. You can't just wait and react, and if you are wrong, congratulations, you just took a bike kick into basically guaranteed meaty jik oki and have to guess between strike or 50/50 throw KBs with a throw loop.

F4 into D1 takes 14 frames to come out and beats highs, so if your character doesn't have a fast mid to commit to after an F4, chances are a smart Liu player will steal the turn with this move after an F4. For many characters, the only option to avoid this is to poke. In this case, if you guess right, the turn is yours, if you guess wrong, he either combos you or takes his turn back putting you in the same shitty situation.

F4 into throw comes out in 17 frames and beats any late normal. If you guess right here you can get a decent punish by ducking it, but if you guess wrong... take that full combo into same shitty spot again.

This is just his F4, I'm not even mentioning the layers on his B1, B3, F3, B2, 12, etc...

Liu and Jacqui are the only characters in the game to make you go through this amount of layers of guessing just to get your turn. You have to guess for your life to get a chance to play the game and this is not fun, not fair and not even remotely balanced.

I consider myself pretty good at playing this matchup, good at recognizing patterns, very well-versed at flawless blocking the shit out of everything this character does on hit/block/oki, but I just can't get comfortable with the amount of guessing I'm doing every time this potato touches me.
I'm simply talking about F43 mix, will he do parry/fireball/throw or frame trap? That's what I am stating isn't a true 50/50 because they are reactable as shown in the videos on random.
What you are talking about is Staggers, Strike/Throw meta and number of hit guess which every character in MK11 possesses in one form or another. He may have more options but every option is counter able just like everyone else. My point here is if a pro player throws 4 options into the mix it will throw off the best of players. Does it matter he has 6 options off 1 string or 4 if they mix you up just as well.

If a Liu Kang does F43xx anything on block I can punish it on reaction.
 

Trini_Bwoi

Kombatant
That is some good info and informative guide to help players struggling against him, good stuff! However, I don't really think this becomes a less lopsided 50/50 when you know your options, especially after F4.

Let's take a more in-depth look at his F4:

F4 is a 9 frame advancing mid with decent range that sits at -7 on block with very little blockstun. F43 is the extension of F4, it comes out in 13 frames and is very hit confirmable.

By the game's math, an F4 stagger followed by another F4 takes 16 frames to come out, only 3 frames more than the gapless F43. It is humanly impossible to react to an F4, as 13 frames is a barely recognizable, add to it the time to recognize and act accordingly and Liu is already at frame advantage again. You have to commit in order to beat him. You can't just wait and react, and if you are wrong, congratulations, you just took a bike kick into basically guaranteed meaty jik oki and have to guess between strike or 50/50 throw KBs with a throw loop.
There is one aspect of frame data that is not a part of your math, which is the cancel advantage on block.

F4's cancel advantage on block is +13, and like you said it's -7 on block. How do we account for this difference? When Liu Kang cancels F4 into 3, he cancels 20 frames of F4's recovery. So, before Liu Kang recovers, you have 20 frames to notice that he did not cancel F4 into 3 (or anything else) and is actually in F4's recovery frames.
 

AK Harold

Warrior
@kcd117 also you are only factoring in start up time not complete animation times use recovery which are reactable hence whiff punishes.

That being said the op leaves out the more complex game of f43 stagger and shimmy with Kang. But hopefully this does help people understand that blocking and assessing situations is beneficial. I feel like everyone is always trying to auto input a counter to every scenario to win lol.
 

kcd117

Kombatant
@AK Harold @Trini_Bwoi U guys were right, my frame data math was a little bit off. However, I did a frame by frame analysis and the difference between F43 and F4F4 is only 7 frames. F43 hits u in 13 and F4F4 hits you in 20.

I assume Harold's explanation is right as I don't really think that's is how cancel advantage works, otherwise, we would have a 29 frame window to recognize and act, and that is not the case.

I also looked at the animation and F43 looks exactly like F4 until frame 7, so I stand by my position that it is humanly impossible to react to it in time to act accordingly.