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Who is the most down played character?

M.D.

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Hello everyone.

There has been a lot of confusion but let me clear out some of the things.

I never pushed for cage to have faster buttons. I don't want f3 mid or f4 9 frames.

I believe the only changes Cage needs are forceball fixes and KB fixes ( like f43 being on punish or counter hit ).

I know Cage has more tools than the forceballs. But against a lot of characters, this is really gimping him.

I play this game a lot. And I had a lot of matches where I worked my ass off against Cassie, Jacqui and somehow got them in chip teritorry. b34 ex balls would have won me the round. Since that didn't work I ended up in their face minus, and lost because I couldn't guess right on the 9 frame stagger.

Not having the force balls work is also losing him a LOT of chip damage, and the opportunity to clip someone with f4 or b3 because they were neutral ducking expecting a ball. This is huge in the gameplan.

The...my problem is that, whenever I said this, I got jumped by the Cage upplayers burning me at the stake because OMFG FORCEBALL WHIFF IS THE ONLY THING KEEPING HIM FROM GOD TIER PERMA LOCKDOWN PERMA STUN ALIST.

I'm not even exaggerating. Literally the only argument I got was that he would be broken god tier with the forceballs working.

And their examples were what triggers me, and what I said earlier.

GODLIKE MIDS
INSANE PRESSURE
ALWAYS PLUS

Which, obviously, is fake.

Don't believe me? There are literally posts like these even in this thread. And it most clearly are from people who didn't use cage in a whiffing match ever, otherwise they would have felt it on their own skin.

I am always ok with arguments and will most happily provide them if asked ( i did videos in another thread proving his +6 does not jail in anything and just makes his buttons on par with 9 frame mids chars, which is actually ok, not omfgbrokencage etc etc).

But when everyone comes yelling OMFG DONT FIX CAGE HE WILL BE TOP3 BROKEN PRESSURE, the 928484th time after it's been explained time and time again and all the pro players using cage agree, it becomes very annoying.

Because for SOME reason these people are very vocal and in most similarities, just like sjw offended people, they will get their way and not only Cage will not get his forceballs fixed, but he will also be nerfed on his buttons more because of his "insane pressure".

Sound far fetched? Nope, it's exactly what happened to Stunt Double and Alist at the end of mkx.

FIX THE FORCEBALLS NRS
 
Marlow

Marlow

Champion
Gave Johnny a try last night, just in practice mode and some super casual matches. Had some fun, I might keep working with him. I get that the Forceballs whiffing is a pain, but he had enough other stuff going on that he still felt ok. Obviously it would be better if it didn't whiff, but on the other hand being able to constantly jail the entire cast into +3 on block situations seems a bit OP.
 
M.D.

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Ok, at this point in time I'm genuinely convinced 7-8 people gathered around in a discord and are posting this kind of stuff on purpose.

Haha guys, you got me, very funny, but I can see the hidden camera in the bushes. You can come out now, no need to keep fooling arround.

This is literally the only logical and sane explanation why this kind of stuff would actually be written here:
Marlow said:
Obviously it would be better if it didn't whiff, but on the other hand being able to constantly jail the entire cast into +3 on block situations seems a bit OP.

constantly jail the entire cast into +3 on block situations seems a bit OP.
constantly+3 OP
constantly+3 OP
constantly+3 OP
constantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OPconstantly+3 OP
Click to expand...
 
Marlow

Marlow

Champion
Dude. Take a chill pill.

I just said being able to end most strings on block at +3 seems pretty strong. Very few if any characters have that ability, so the fact that it still works on over half the cast is pretty solid. I feel like I've done my best to be a pretty nice and respectful guy, you don't need to be a dick about things.
 
Circus

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
With all this drama abut Johnny going around at the moment, I'd just like to put in my controversial 2cents.

Post patch, I think many characters got better, but I think the only character who was once "not as good as the top tiers", and now is as good as the top tiers, is Johnny.

I'd personally put him in my top 6-7 at the very least. This isn't saying he's crazy OP or is cheap ect.

Time will tell, but don't be surprised once Sonic Fox or some others make a public tier list and Johnny is dancing with the cool kids up top.
 
M.D.

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Marlow said:
Dude. Take a chill pill.

I just said being able to end most strings on block at +3 seems pretty strong. Very few if any characters have that ability, so the fact that it still works on over half the cast is pretty solid. I feel like I've done my best to be a pretty nice and respectful guy, you don't need to be a dick about things.
Click to expand...
Ah so you were actually serious.

Ok in that case.

First, you didn't read any of the threads about Johnny where this has been discussed and it was agreed that it's borderline mid tier with the framedata he currently has, and is extremely far away from OP.

Second,you can't go around just looking at the frame data on block, you need to also look at the startup of the other buttons.

+3 on block is not constantly, it requires meter.
Having a tool work inconsistently is no excuse. It needs to work EXACTLY the same on ALL the cast.
You can't just say "omg if he would be consistent he would be op"
That's not logical.

Also, +3 on block with meter means nothing guaranteed. His fastest mid is 14, so there is a 11 frame gap where they can just walk back, jump, and actually hit you out of your own moves.

+3 on block actually compensates with the slow buttons he has, to make him balanced. Otherwise you will just get ultra destroyed, which you are, in the matchups that the forceballs whiff.

If you want the forceballs with METER, not to be plus, then i'll take a 9 or 11 frame mid buff, thanks.

Whichever the case, it needs to work EXACTLY the same on ALL the cast.
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
M.D. said:
Ah so you were actually serious.

Ok in that case.

First, you didn't read any of the threads about Johnny where this has been discussed and it was agreed that it's borderline mid tier with the framedata he currently has, and is extremely far away from OP.

Second,you can't go around just looking at the frame data on block, you need to also look at the startup of the other buttons.

+3 on block is not constantly, it requires meter.
Having a tool work inconsistently is no excuse. It needs to work EXACTLY the same on ALL the cast.
You can't just say "omg if he would be consistent he would be op"
That's not logical.

Also, +3 on block with meter means nothing guaranteed. His fastest mid is 14, so there is a 11 frame gap where they can just walk back, jump, and actually hit you out of your own moves.

+3 on block actually compensates with the slow buttons he has, to make him balanced. Otherwise you will just get ultra destroyed, which you are, in the matchups that the forceballs whiff.

If you want the forceballs with METER, not to be plus, then i'll take a 9 or 11 frame mid buff, thanks.

Whichever the case, it needs to work EXACTLY the same on ALL the cast.
Click to expand...
Can you name a character in this game that has a plus on block special you can cancel into that is plus enough to guarantee a follow up with no gap?

Geras rewind cancels off F3 and F2 are +3, Jade running kick mb is +3, why should Johnny be more than +3 and have free follow ups when no one else does? Did you forget this isnt MKX again?
 
M.D.

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Who said anyone wants more than +3 wtf?
Nobody wants mkx again, stop putting words in my mouth.

I only want people to stop upplaying with fake information.

The only changes I want (for the bazilionth time) are forceballs not to whiff and at least an usable kb (f43).

That's it. His frames are ok when they don't whiff. AND THEY ARE NOT OP.
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
M.D. said:
Who said anyone wants more than +3 wtf?
Nobody wants mkx again, stop putting words in my mouth.

I only want people to stop upplaying with fake information.

The only changes I want (for the bazilionth time) are forceballs not to whiff and at least an usable kb (f43).

That's it. His frames are ok when they don't whiff. AND THEY ARE NOT OP.
Click to expand...
So then why you do spend all thread downplaying your options after +3?
 
Marlow

Marlow

Champion
M.D. said:
Also, +3 on block with meter means nothing guaranteed. His fastest mid is 14, so there is a 11 frame gap where they can just walk back, jump, and actually hit you out of your own moves.
Click to expand...
Do the blocked forceballs push him out of D4 range?

Also, if the opponent keeps walking back and jumping, can't he beat that out with his shadow kick? Again, I just started looking at him last night so I'm not trying to speak from absolute authority or anything, but it seems like at plus frames he's still very much in the drivers seat in terms of dictating the action, even if it's not always guaranteed.
 
Swindle

Swindle

Philanthropist & Asshole
LawAbidingCitizen said:
Ok my new votes are:

Currently: Jade, Johnny, Erron(post patch), Kitana and now Shang(I'm a Shang/Nightwolf main and I'm saying mist of the community downplays him, he loses 4% and they act like all his tools are gone.
I have seen so many jade mains act like she is the riskiest character with the worst tools and no safe way to be effective.
Johnny mains do have legit complaints Like hitbox issues But some act like he is the hardest character to use not realizing he has top 3 footsies and shimmy.
Click to expand...
Lol you’re just throwing Kitana in there to keep the false narrative burning.
She’s good, not great. Way more up playing than downplaying of her around here, amongst other places.
 
SwiftEagle

SwiftEagle

Apprentice
GLoRToR said:
Alright, we're good then.
As Jade main, I think the game is in a decent place right now and hopefully will be even better with next patch when hopefully some of the hitbox issues will finally get addressed.
Click to expand...
Johnny's force balls don't whiff against Jade. :p
 
GLoRToR

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
M.D. said:
Also, +3 on block with meter means nothing guaranteed. His fastest mid is 14, so there is a 11 frame gap where they can just walk back, jump, and actually hit you out of your own moves.
Click to expand...
And there are characters with 9f advancing mids that lead to huge damage, too.
 
DrFolmer

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Marlow said:
Also, if the opponent keeps walking back and jumping, can't he beat that out with his shadow kick?
Click to expand...
So I have to commit to my full combo punishable, d2 KB-able special move after being plus 3-6.

Do you see where M.D. is going with this? It's like people look at the frames without considering the whole character. And yes he has tools for every situation - I mean who doesnt? He does have a mid to punish neutral duckers - but it's not hitconfirmable, thus being a commit to f44 or f4NP, which is also full combo punishable.

I know plus frames look godlike on paper, but I'm telling you, the character would have a super limited neutral pressence without them. 124, Forceballs are the tools used to setup shimmies. Johnny doesnt have that Scorpion f3 mid stagger, he doesnt have a particularly good throw game, he doesnt have those insane range d4's with hella pushback that are -2 that create shimmies. Johnny's plusframes are his way of getting these things - and that's not even something you have to deal with as an opponent as you can just back out of every offense. Yes Shadowkick works, but people are fine taking 7 % and resetting neutral or even fishing for a full combo.

So, you guys talk about 'insane' plus frames - yet you dont have poke out and eat b34. You can just say "hey man I dont want to do this" and nothing will happen. Johnny might just back and voila neutral is reset. Best case against inexperienced people, you're gonna get them b34 combos. Solid players will SHIT on the plus frames and simply consider it a reset of neutral, and considering his slow advancing normals, I think it's fair to put it like that. Lets face it, you can full combo Johnny for pressing his advance after plus 6 with a fast jab starter. You can walk backwards a bit and have him whiff f344 and whiff punish him. You can just walk out of it entirely. You dont have to hold anything he does. You can throw out a jab starter hoping he commits, but that's gonna get you killed if he doesnt and vice versa if he does commit. It's not fun to spend a bar on being plus and then eat a 38 % from Noob because you pushed your advantage, but hey that's fighting games - it's all a guessing game. Forceballs are more of a "hmm lemme see what he does and take it from there" than it is a "GOTCHA NOW BITCH" tool.

It should be said this is different in the corner because he's closer to the opponent, and his followup offense cannot be walked out of. It still leads to the possibility of Johnny being comboed out of his advancement with a jabstarter combo but that's where mixups come into play - and this is also here it's huge he loses out on Forceballs against so many.

And listen I've always said Johnny could easily be a top 10 character with his incosistencies fixed despite everything listed. He does have tons of easy hitconfirms, a restand, safety, exceptional startup on pokes, a good projectile, good wakeups. The problem is however, against half the cast people can just crouch block his projectile AND IT WHIFFS COMPLETELY. That makes his otherwise potentially effective zoning WORTHLESS, and it needs to be fixed. Johnny has the ideal kit for a defensive archetype character. Especially after plus 6, I would like to be able to just hit brass knuckles and chip your ass down forcing you to neutral duck to avoid it, but that opens up for me using f4 with a quick dash - I just cant play that way as of now because of inconsistencies :(
 
Seobones

Seobones

Noob
I only play online so when people tell me Sub Zero is low tier I cringe a little tbh.
I guess most people outside of TYM don't realise that the tier lists are made of offline play.
 
SwiftEagle

SwiftEagle

Apprentice
DrFolmer said:
So I have to commit to my full combo punishable, d2 KB-able special move after being plus 3-6.

Do you see where M.D. is going with this? It's like people look at the frames without considering the whole character. And yes he has tools for every situation - I mean who doesnt? He does have a mid to punish neutral duckers - but it's not hitconfirmable, thus being a commit to f44 or f4NP, which is also full combo punishable.

I know plus frames look godlike on paper, but I'm telling you, the character would have a super limited neutral pressence without them. 124, Forceballs are the tools used to setup shimmies. Johnny doesnt have that Scorpion f3 mid stagger, he doesnt have a particularly good throw game, he doesnt have those insane range d4's with hella pushback that are -2 that create shimmies. Johnny's plusframes are his way of getting these things - and that's not even something you have to deal with as an opponent as you can just back out of every offense. Yes Shadowkick works, but people are fine taking 7 % and resetting neutral or even fishing for a full combo.

So, you guys talk about 'insane' plus frames - yet you dont have poke out and eat b34. You can just say "hey man I dont want to do this" and nothing will happen. Johnny might just back and voila neutral is reset. Best case against inexperienced people, you're gonna get them b34 combos. Solid players will SHIT on the plus frames and simply consider it a reset of neutral, and considering his slow advancing normals, I think it's fair to put it like that. Lets face it, you can full combo Johnny for pressing his advance after plus 6 with a fast jab starter. You can walk backwards a bit and have him whiff f344 and whiff punish him. You can just walk out of it entirely. You dont have to hold anything he does. You can throw out a jab starter hoping he commits, but that's gonna get you killed if he doesnt and vice versa if he does commit. It's not fun to spend a bar on being plus and then eat a 38 % from Noob because you pushed your advantage, but hey that's fighting games - it's all a guessing game. Forceballs are more of a "hmm lemme see what he does and take it from there" than it is a "GOTCHA NOW BITCH" tool.

It should be said this is different in the corner because he's closer to the opponent, and his followup offense cannot be walked out of. It still leads to the possibility of Johnny being comboed out of his advancement with a jabstarter combo but that's where mixups come into play - and this is also here it's huge he loses out on Forceballs against so many.

And listen I've always said Johnny could easily be a top 10 character with his incosistencies fixed despite everything listed. He does have tons of easy hitconfirms, a restand, safety, exceptional startup on pokes, a good projectile, good wakeups. The problem is however, against half the cast people can just crouch block his projectile AND IT WHIFFS COMPLETELY. That makes his otherwise potentially effective zoning WORTHLESS, and it needs to be fixed. Johnny has the ideal kit for a defensive archetype character. Especially after plus 6, I would like to be able to just hit brass knuckles and chip your ass down forcing you to neutral duck to avoid it, but that opens up for me using f4 with a quick dash - I just cant play that way as of now because of inconsistencies :(
Click to expand...
I don't like telling others, "If you don't use him/her then don't comment".
Sonya players usually say things like that. However, I do wish some people would give Cage a try for a few hundred matches just to see what it's like. Cage players are either really good, or really shit. There's no middle ground with him.
I'm against 50/50 grabs too, but what happens when you take that away from Cage? Then what? That's like half his game plan lol. It's really satisfying winning with him though. Especially against Scorpion players etc. You completely out played your opponent.
 
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