Do Tournament placings have an effect on tiers?

[Vslayer]

To correct you, kung lao cant do f4 into grab. I think you mean wether hes gonna do f4 or throw after knockdown or after plus frames.

Ah okay my bad, I thought he could do it after F4. I guess he can do it after F1 tho.

 

[JSF]

No, tier lists are based only on a character's toolset. An underrated character can be found to be great when a player dominates with them, but here's what I think.

If someone like @Circus can win a tourney with Kano, one of the worst characters in the game, it's because of his skill and how little people know about the Kano MU since he isn't used often. But it doesn't mean that because he won a tourney and beat Scorpion and Jacqui players that Kano is better than both these characters. His toolset is low tier, but it's the player who's skilled.

Kung Lao is still mid-tier however you look at it, you have to use gimmicks like F4 into throw to mix up your opponent. Just like with Kano, you have to D1 into a special to mix them up. If you take a character like Cassie, she has a restand that grants you a free mixup and a 9 frame mid that guarantees another combo if they guess wrong. The most these other characters get is a 14% throw or a D1 into a special when Cassie gets 25-30% off a coin flip.

That's why Cassie is one of the best characters in the game, she doesn't have to rely on gimmicks, she has pretty much every tool a character would need to be strong. The only thing she's missing is good down pokes, but she doesn't even need them.

THANK YOU. THIS IS THE ANSWER IF ANYONE IS UNCERTAIN OR DOESNT KNOW.

 

[deadeyekiwi]

I think influence tierlists more in that they can provide data on the match ups that a tierlist would be based. Placement statistics can be used to influence tiers but to me it is less important unless the results are insanely skewed towards 1 character consistently.

 

[villainous monk]

That's a loaded question. Yes over time as a player and game progresses on it can be a factor in tier shifts.

For example FB option select would be universal for all characters. So doing it constantly in matches and whatnot wouldn't matter tier wise at all. U2 & what not.

For some FB reversal punishers some are better then others. So these characters might move up a tier only if they have potential for max damage I suppose. Big maybe in my opinion.

Then you have FB reversal punishers with no meter or using strings or special cancels might move them up even further. This would be what I would be looking at closely. I'll rate the animation, frames, stage positioning. Buttons, mobility and just how hard the execution will have to be. All that because this is what pulls good character away from great, mind you ON PAPER though. This is where I think the game will progress to in the months+ to come.

Mind you this is mostly player specific and it's a universal mechanic in the game.
So in the grand scheme of things it kinda does matter. Even though if the character has a tool set and good buttons to constantly do this with, as well as the players skill then yeah why not include it in the list. Especially if certain characters are better at exploiting it better than other characters.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

In my opinion Tier Lists are built around MU's how well a specific character does vs the rest of the cast. They should take into account frame data, known hitbox issues, mixup options, mids/tools, staggers, buttons hitbox strength and risk vs reward.

Kung Lao can be effective just like any character, based on his MU's and toolkit I believe he is mid tier shown to us by Foxy's effectiveness with the character vs the best players in the world..
Then you have to factor in player skill and matchup knowledge into this or its all worthless.
I am a Kotal Main and he us widely accepted as Bottom 3 not because he can't win vs top tiers that counter him but because he has serious hitbox issues vs everyone, poor zoning and poor up close tools having his s1/s2/D1/CG/F1 Wiff in many situations making it hard for him to take his turns or steal them back. He also has some of the worst frames on his special moves in the game with horrible startup/recovery.
Every character from Mid Tier to S Tier does better than Kotal in every way and has better frames, buttons, mix and zoning what he has is amazing footsie with F24 used with wave dash.
What I'm trying to say is he can be effective because he can mix up opponents as seen by Furious Pillow at Veinnality but he is very risky while having little reward like other characters: Kollector, Kano, D'Vorah, Frost, Shao and others who just have limited options like: Kitana, Jade, Lao, Raiden who are considered Mid tier because they are solid but not as good as say Erron, Geras, Sonya, Scorpion, Baraka, Cetrion, Jacqui, Jax, Sub Zero and Cassie.

I believe Tournaments can she'd light on tech/tools and superior playstyle with characters not fully realized but its not a substitute for years of MU experience and character knowledge and comparing tools but if something new is found with a low tier character that needs to be taken into account in tier lists.

 

[KeyserSoze]

 

[TyCarter35]

Matchup Numbers are generally the primary driving factor for tier lists which takes into account toolset of characters which ofc. Tournament placings/representation helps with determining say tiebreakers on tier list along with who they win against like say if char A and char B won and lost the same number of MUs but if Char A wins against more of the top tiers than Char B than Char A would be higher. Also case and point of tournament placing/representation not being a driving factor is Cutthroat Kano at his peak, when he was top 5 easily in MKXL but lacked in tournament representation except for Jupe but was acknowledged as strong.

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

Ketchup straight up says it matters on his most recent tier list

 

[NothingPersonal]

Lao is degenerate

Preach ma'man.

 

[MrArcher15]

Yes

 

[NaCl man]

Nope.
Teir lists are made of match ups.
They are if played perfectly character a beats character b x number of matches out if 10.

Gimicks cant be counted. Human error isnt counted either.

Panda won the last TWT and she is low teir
And still regarded as such.

 

[kingjack21]

I wanted to ask your opinion on this.

I have been watching MK11 offline tournaments and in particular Combo Breaker, CEO, Viennality, VS FIGHTING, Defend The North and Online NA East.

There seems to be an understanding that Cassie, Jacqui, Geras, Erron and Sonya are pretty strong characters.

However if you are able to use your tools effectively with other characters in a tournament setting on a consistent basis and get top 8, does this effect tier placement?

I ask because I have been seeing Kung Lao in the top 8 a lot as of late however top players do have the opinion that Kung Lao is not top tier despite him getting top 3 at CEO, getting 3rd at Viennality, him winning VS FIGHTING, and getting top 2 at Defend The North.

Now I actually think Lao is mid tier personally and is tournament viable but do people respect the fact that players like F0xy and Splash can make top 8 exclusively with Lao and the fact that they use different variations?

If you achieve a top placement consistently at offline tournaments can your character remain low tier regardless?

In a nutshell do Tournament placements have anything to do with changing or effecting a tier list?

To my understanding tier lists are about match up numbers right?

In tournaments you can overcome a match up but if say characters like Kung Lao is beating characters like Jacqui and Geras in tournament then does that effect Kung Lao's match up chart overall?

I know I am writing a lot but can a match up change because of a result in tournament?

Like it was mentioned in VS FIGHTING that Kung Lao's D2 is effective against Geras's body splash which is damn near impossible to anti air. So knowing that how does that effect Kung Lao's tier placement? Can that change the Kung Lao Vs Geras match up? if he can fight a top tier character well, how does that effect him in the tiers.

I hope this brings about healthy discussion for I find it very interesting because I am hearing some say Kung Lao is absolute trash and in the worst tier. So can you be tournament viable and run through a bracket exclusively in MK11 and still be the worst tier in the game?

Would love to hear your feedback.

I'm sure some version of this has been stated above... But the thing is.. You may need to play Lao to understand what's actually going on. F0xy only shines when he knows the player's tenancies.. Only then can he exploit is F4 strike throw mix up well... I refuse to call it a gimmick because well it's a pretty basic and fundamental 50/50.

The problem occurs when he faces players of equal skill (no shade to the other players) but sonic and dragon are examples... Their abilities to adapt.. Shows you how well kung Lao does. Go watch that Lao and Cetrion match and F0xy's match against sonic in losers. For kung Lao to shine... You have to condition your opponent very very hard. Which maybe sometimes hard to do in a tournament setting. In a Ft10 yeah sure. But in 3 quick games, whenever a character decides to disrespect you as kung Lao, you're losing 40% because of how easily punishable throws are in this game. "mid tier" characters don't have to deal with this in general. They have pretty solid buttons outside of one mid. Everything else Lao can do is so negative on block that you can full combo punish it.. I don't know of any mid tier characters that suffer like this tbh. I think F0xy is just too good and we should commend his love for the character.

 

[RyuKazuya]

I would be careful here since this is a really good question. Now the thing is that placings is a good indicator that the character has a very good chance to be strong. HOWEVER most of the times I'd say it is just the player who is good enough to make it that far with the specific chararacter.

Therefore merely an indicator and the tools that the chars have should be considered first.

 

[DeftMonk]

Thank you Vslayer.

I have another question.

Do gimmicks eventually then get figured out regardless of a players skill?

So say someone like F0xy who has done well with Kung Lao do you think that it's his skill or do you think it's lack of match up knowledge?

I am understanding that if you have strong toolset then you can force mix ups and one of those mix-ups can lead to a combo so characters like Cassie, can inforce those situations but mid tier characters can't really do that or have limited resources to do that.

I suppose I am asking in a nutshell is the Kung Lao stuff player skill or is it lack of knowledge on the match up?

Even if someone is skillfull and knowledgeable they will slip up if you make them. At this point in the games life, pros not being aware of frame data or the like on a character like kung lao would be extremely surprising.

 

[Espionage]

So I need to be clear.

What are the tools you lack that make you low tier?

What are the tools you need to make you mid tier?

I am asking because Kung Lao to me is considered mid tier.

You have others saying he is low tier regardless of his placing.

So what is it that qualifies him to be mid tier?

If he is low tier than why is he low?

I have heard YouTube videos and all they say is he is garbage and they speak about Kung Lao's frame data.

So I want people to elaborate to me his tier placement and what qualifies as low tier.

Also does low tier even me garbage in MK11?

I truly want to know because if it is about F0xy studying player tendencies than I need to strictly understand the tools Kung Lao has and I need to understand if his tools qualify for him to be mid tier or low tier.

 

[Qwark28]

To correct you, kung lao cant do f4 into grab. I think you mean wether hes gonna do f4 or throw after knockdown or after plus frames.

Imagine calling that a gimmick when it's the main way of opening people up in this game.

 

[Espionage]

Nope.
Teir lists are made of match ups.
They are if played perfectly character a beats character b x number of matches out if 10.

Gimicks cant be counted. Human error isnt counted either.

Panda won the last TWT and she is low teir
And still regarded as such.

Well than the question is do people consider Panda garbage because he is low tier?

Kung Lao is considered garbage because he is low tier or bottom 5. However he is making these top 8s.

How do people see Panda? Players can say Panda lacks tools and is low tier but they won't necessarily say Panda is garbage.

It seems to be the consensus that if you are low tier in MK11 then you suck, so when I see characters that are suppose to suck getting consistent placements then I question the tier positioning only because of the consistency.

This doesn't mean that I put them in top tier. It does make me think of the language people use when speaking of tiers.

A garbage character shouldn't in my opinion be making top 3 or getting Grand Finals of high level tournaments.

Kotal is considered a trash character. D'Vorah isn't considered good either and in a tournament setting because of their problems than it solidifies the statement that they aren't that good.

If Kotal all of a sudden starts getting Top 3 then automatically we will restudy his tools the same as we are now.

When Furious Pillow beat Hayatei at CEO we saw what happened the next day against Beyond Toxin which means people can lab the weaknesses. So if they can do it for Kotal they can do it for Lao too.

So if Lao keeps getting top 3 then at the very least he has the tools to at least not be garbage.

I am talking too much lol!

TL: DR: Is Panda and Kung Lao seen in the same light meaning is Panda garbage in Tekken 7 and that's why he is considered low tier? If Kung Lao is low tier are we still consider him a garbage character based off of his tools?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

(This is a secret Lao upplaying thread )

The truth is though, that they shouldn’t be the justification for tier lists. They will, of course, form a basis for discussion — but they shouldn’t be filtering directly into the tier lists themselves.

Tier lists are supposed to be based on matchups, and only matchups. Not “this dude beat that dude”, not “I lost last night and it felt hard”. Matchups are supposed to be determined by long sets, and lots of them over time, plus analysis based in the meta.

Tournaments are based on performances, and individual skill. Two things that should never determine a matchup chart. There will be heroic performances by talented players of many characters in a tournament, but that’s not what tier lists are (or should be) made of.

 

[Espionage]

(This is a secret Lao upplaying thread )

The truth is though, that they shouldn’t be the justification for tier lists. They will, of course, form a basis for discussion — but they shouldn’t be filtering directly into the tier lists themselves.

Tier lists are supposed to be based on matchups, and only matchups. Not “this dude beat that dude”, not “I lost last night and it felt hard”. Matchups are supposed to be determined by long sets, and lots of them over time, plus analysis based in the meta.

Tournaments are based on performances, and individual skill. Two things that should never determine a matchup chart. There will be heroic performances by talented players of many characters in a tournament, but that’s not what tier lists are (or should be) made of.

LOL Crimson maybe it is an upplaying thread ;-)

So do you feel Kung Lao is being up played right now and that he is low tier?

What are your viewpoints so far on the tools of Kung Lao.

Also do you follow personally the view point you have stated on tier lists being based on match ups?

So for example if you were to say Cassie is the best character in the game is that based on match-ups?

Are you entertaining any tier lists at this point and if you entertain them are they based on match-up discussion?

For the record I am thinking Kung Lao is good enough for mid and I ain't putting him any higher than that.

I have seen Splash and F0xy do well against Geras. One of the condiment brothers had mentioned about Kung Lao's D2 being very effective against Geras body splash. When they were talking about tools now and a way to also combo Geras off of the D2. That seemed to be consistent tech to use so it got me thinking that this statement is more about tools then outplaying your opponent so that would at least put Kung Lao in a better position then just outplaying your opponent. Now Geras players have to consider that because that's not a guess like the Strike/throw mix up game Lao does to everybody.

So yeh maybe I am up playing lol. However I think it's a healthy discussion and I do generally believe that Lao isn't trash but he isn't anywhere near the best either.

Would love to hear your opinion Crimson truly.

Do you personally look more at grinded match ups between top players?

Tom Brady always mentions it takes thousands of games to get match ups down.

What do you think?

Also what is the current meta of this game.

The term meta is thrown around a lot.

How does the games meta effect the tier list and what usually happens that effects the games meta?

Loaded questions I know but I am truly wanting to learn and understand more about MK11 and how people think about the game in terms of its evolution.

 

[Espionage]

Imagine calling that a gimmick when it's the main way of opening people up in this game.

Quark I would like to be clear so just asking a few questions of yo.

What is it regarding Kotal Kahn that is considered a gimmick?

If you have a set up you have done from let's say a breakaway position is this considered a gimmick if they can escape from the set up?

If the set up only has one layer then is that a gimmick?

If you have 2 possible scenarios then is that a 50/50 or can the 50/50 still be a gimmick?

What makes something a gimmick in Fighting games?

I am not a top player but I do like discussion and to hear the opinions of other players so I can be more knowledgeable on this game.

 

[MashiroTamigi]

If Kotal all of a sudden starts getting Top 3 then automatically we will restudy his tools the same as we are now.

When Furious Pillow beat Hayatei at CEO we saw what happened the next day against Beyond Toxin which means people can lab the weaknesses. So if they can do it for Kotal they can do it for Lao too.

Man, kotal and lao are on different side of the game, not even close. Mb Lao is mid tier but his tools are waaaaaaay better than kotal. We can talk all day about Foxy's Lao, but is more Foxy doing work with a character that clicked with him than the character being good for a top8
I still believe that people just want to see more characters played in a top 8, but i believe that for now this ain't gonna happen. So,for me yes, tournaments result and presence are important factor to be considered for a tier list.

 

[Qwark28]

Quark I would like to be clear so just asking a few questions of yo.

What is it regarding Kotal Kahn that is considered a gimmick?

If you have a set up you have done from let's say a breakaway position is this considered a gimmick if they can escape from the set up?

If the set up only has one layer then is that a gimmick?

If you have 2 possible scenarios then is that a 50/50 or can the 50/50 still be a gimmick?

What makes something a gimmick in Fighting games?

I am not a top player but I do like discussion and to hear the opinions of other players so I can be more knowledgeable on this game.

My point was about vslayer calling what lao does a gimmick. The throw/mid game.

It's not a gimmick, it's how the game is played with how it's made.

 

[Vslayer]

My point was about vslayer calling what lao does a gimmick. The throw/mid game.

It's not a gimmick, it's how the game is played with how it's made.

Lower tiers in this game don't have the tools the top tiers have to open up opponents and F1 into throw to me, is a gimmick. I get throws are made to open people up in this game, still doesn't mean it isn't gimmicky especially since it requires you to tech a certain direction.

 

[Qwark28]

Lower tiers in this game don't have the tools the top tiers have to open up opponents and F1 into throw to me, is a gimmick. I get throws are made to open people up in this game, still doesn't mean it isn't gimmicky especially since it requires you to tech a certain direction.

Lower tiers? Kung lao? F1 into throw? He doesn't do F1 into throw. Nor F4 throw as you said earlier.

He threatens either throw or F44.

 

[Qwark28]

For what it's worth, I think KL probably wins over Skarlet since most zoners get outmatched by people who have teleports in this game.

I hate his 30f teleport, I think it's too fast for what he gets out of it.