Do Tournament placings have an effect on tiers?

[Espionage]

I wanted to ask your opinion on this.

I have been watching MK11 offline tournaments and in particular Combo Breaker, CEO, Viennality, VS FIGHTING, Defend The North and Online NA East.

There seems to be an understanding that Cassie, Jacqui, Geras, Erron and Sonya are pretty strong characters.

However if you are able to use your tools effectively with other characters in a tournament setting on a consistent basis and get top 8, does this effect tier placement?

I ask because I have been seeing Kung Lao in the top 8 a lot as of late however top players do have the opinion that Kung Lao is not top tier despite him getting top 3 at CEO, getting 3rd at Viennality, him winning VS FIGHTING, and getting top 2 at Defend The North.

Now I actually think Lao is mid tier personally and is tournament viable but do people respect the fact that players like F0xy and Splash can make top 8 exclusively with Lao and the fact that they use different variations?

If you achieve a top placement consistently at offline tournaments can your character remain low tier regardless?

In a nutshell do Tournament placements have anything to do with changing or effecting a tier list?

To my understanding tier lists are about match up numbers right?

In tournaments you can overcome a match up but if say characters like Kung Lao is beating characters like Jacqui and Geras in tournament then does that effect Kung Lao's match up chart overall?

I know I am writing a lot but can a match up change because of a result in tournament?

Like it was mentioned in VS FIGHTING that Kung Lao's D2 is effective against Geras's body splash which is damn near impossible to anti air. So knowing that how does that effect Kung Lao's tier placement? Can that change the Kung Lao Vs Geras match up? if he can fight a top tier character well, how does that effect him in the tiers.

I hope this brings about healthy discussion for I find it very interesting because I am hearing some say Kung Lao is absolute trash and in the worst tier. So can you be tournament viable and run through a bracket exclusively in MK11 and still be the worst tier in the game?

Would love to hear your feedback.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

"Do Tournament placings have an effect on tiers?"

Yes.

 

[Vslayer]

No, tier lists are based only on a character's toolset. An underrated character can be found to be great when a player dominates with them, but here's what I think.

If someone like @Circus can win a tourney with Kano, one of the worst characters in the game, it's because of his skill and how little people know about the Kano MU since he isn't used often. But it doesn't mean that because he won a tourney and beat Scorpion and Jacqui players that Kano is better than both these characters. His toolset is low tier, but it's the player who's skilled.

Kung Lao is still mid-tier however you look at it, you have to use gimmicks like F4 into throw to mix up your opponent. Just like with Kano, you have to D1 into a special to mix them up. If you take a character like Cassie, she has a restand that grants you a free mixup and a 9 frame mid that guarantees another combo if they guess wrong. The most these other characters get is a 14% throw or a D1 into a special when Cassie gets 25-30% off a coin flip.

That's why Cassie is one of the best characters in the game, she doesn't have to rely on gimmicks, she has pretty much every tool a character would need to be strong. The only thing she's missing is good down pokes, but she doesn't even need them.

 

[Marinjuana]

You should expect tournament results to help shape tier lists because people always going to value tournament results and a lot of balance discussion is opinion based.

 

[Espionage]

Thank you all for your feedback so far!

Appreciated!

 

[FoughtDragon01]

Tourneys aren't the be-all-end-all decider, but they do play a major role since that's where you find the best of the best using all the tools that they have with their character. But there are still other questions to consider. Did Foxy or Kombat make Top 8 with Lao and Johnny respectively because those characters are top tier, or because the players are just that good?

Characters can absolutely be underestimated or slept on until a pro really shows what you can do with them, but when see the same handful of characters, or lack thereof, placing high at majors, it goes a long way to at least showing who the best and worst are.

 

[Espionage]

No, tier lists are based only on a character's toolset. An underrated character can be found to be great when a player dominates with them, but here's what I think.

If someone like @Circus can win a tourney with Kano, one of the worst characters in the game, it's because of his skill and how little people know about the Kano MU since he isn't used often. But it doesn't mean that because he won a tourney and beat Scorpion and Jacqui players that Kano is better than both these characters. His toolset is low tier, but it's the player who's skilled.

Kung Lao is still mid-tier however you look at it, you have to use gimmicks like F4 into throw to mix up your opponent. Just like with Kano, you have to D1 into a special to mix them up. If you take a character like Cassie, she has a restand that grants you a free mixup and a 9 frame mid that guarantees another combo if they guess wrong. The most these other characters get is a 14% throw or a D1 into a special when Cassie gets 25-30% off a coin flip.

That's why Cassie is one of the best characters in the game, she doesn't have to rely on gimmicks, she has pretty much every tool a character would need to be strong. The only thing she's missing is good down pokes, but she doesn't even need them.

Thank you Vslayer.

I have another question.

Do gimmicks eventually then get figured out regardless of a players skill?

So say someone like F0xy who has done well with Kung Lao do you think that it's his skill or do you think it's lack of match up knowledge?

I am understanding that if you have strong toolset then you can force mix ups and one of those mix-ups can lead to a combo so characters like Cassie, can inforce those situations but mid tier characters can't really do that or have limited resources to do that.

I suppose I am asking in a nutshell is the Kung Lao stuff player skill or is it lack of knowledge on the match up?

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

Results definitely help build a tier list, but aren’t an ultimatum.

 

[Espionage]

Tourneys aren't the be-all-end-all decider, but they do play a major role since that's where you find the best of the best using all the tools that they have with their character. But there are other questions. Did Foxy or Kombat make Top 8 with Lao and Johnny respectively because those characters are top tier, or because the players are just that good?


Characters can absolutely be underestimated or slept on until a pro really shows what you can do with them, but when see the same handful of characters, or lack thereof, placing high at majors, it goes a long way to at least showing who the best and worst are.

I think F0xy is fundamentally a good player and he actually loves Kung Lao as a character.

Kombat is fundamentally a good player too. Kombat uses multiple characters and plays more to the match up than F0xy does.

I think F0xy studies the player and makes reads on their tendencies when he plays Kung Lao.

I would say because of that it's easier to gage Cage on the tier list because Kombat purposely avoids picking Cage against characters where his moves will whiff.

However F0xy uses Lao against all his opponents even against characters that don't look very favorable at all like Yaas Queens Cassie and Spring Cleaning Cetrion.

I appreciate your feedback.

I am understanding that character tools are what effect match ups which is what effects tiers.

Tournament do have an effect but they aren't the totality of the tier list.

Evo is gonna be interesting to see where Shang lies and also to see how many characters will be used!

 

[xenogorgeous]

Q: Do tourney results influence somehow tier lists conception ?

A: Sure ! the results have some weight on definition who are the best characters in the game .... anyway, the skill factor , individual one, is relevant too .... in less scale ....

but why that ? because top players choose to pick characters that , in theory, have the best moveset in the game, and so, that plus added with their skill as players, contribute to the results .....

it's a simple combination of good characters (60% relevant) + individual player skill envolved (40% relevant)

 

[Espionage]

Q: Do tourney results influence somehow tier lists conception ?

A: Sure ! the results have some weight on definition who are the best characters in the game .... anyway, the skill factor , individual one, is relevant too .... in less scale ....

but why that ? because top players choose to pick characters that , in theory, have the best moveset in the game, and so, that plus added with their skill as players, contribute to the results .....

it's a simple combination of good characters (60% relevant) + individual player skill envolved (40% relevant)

Good answer.

Understood and I appreciate your opinion.

I have a better understanding cause I was truly confused as I was watching YouTube videos saying Lao was trash but he was getting top 3 so that wasn't making sense to me.

To me a really bad character shouldn't be able to make top 8 consistently especially with MK11 and everybody can lab on the Switch now on the go.

So I was baffled by this tier list stuff lol!

 

[Vslayer]

Thank you Vslayer.

I have another question.

Do gimmicks eventually then get figured out regardless of a players skill?

So say someone like F0xy who has done well with Kung Lao do you think that it's his skill or do you think it's lack of match up knowledge?

I am understanding that if you have strong toolset then you can force mix ups and one of those mix-ups can lead to a combo so characters like Cassie, can inforce those situations but mid tier characters can't really do that or have limited resources to do that.

I suppose I am asking in a nutshell is the Kung Lao stuff player skill or is it lack of knowledge on the match up?

I think if you see your opponent do something over and over, then good players will see that and then adjust to it. Gimmicks on their own are easy to stop, but if you combine gimmicks then it becomes harder. For example, D1 into kano ball, you have to block. D1 into command grab you can't be blocking. D1 into grab, you have to tech or neutral duck so then it creates a guessing game, but that's what low tier characters in this game sort of have to do to survive.

Kung Lao can do F4 into grab, so you have to tech or neutral duck, or he does F4 into spin which if the opponent is blocking, it's punishable.

I believe that it's more skill and mixups reliant than anything else. Because as I said, they have to mix you up to get some damage (usually pretty low) whereas other characters get full combos off of mix-ups.

MU knowledge is also a thing, but less so after figuring out gimmicks. After that, it's all about figuring out patterns and guessing right.

 

[Espionage]

I think if you see your opponent do something over and over, then good players will see that and then adjust to it. Gimmicks on their own are easy to stop, but if you combine gimmicks then it becomes harder. For example, D1 into kano ball, you have to block. D1 into command grab you can't be blocking. D1 into grab, you have to tech or neutral duck so then it creates a guessing game, but that's what low tier characters in this game sort of have to do to survive.

Kung Lao can do F4 into grab, so you have to tech or neutral duck, or he does F4 into spin which if the opponent is blocking, it's punishable.

I believe that it's more skill and mixups reliant than anything else. Because as I said, they have to mix you up to get some damage (usually pretty low) whereas other characters get full combos off of mix-ups.

MU knowledge is also a thing, but less so after figuring out gimmicks. After that, it's all about figuring out patterns and guessing right.

So essentially there is an element of skill to the characters using characters such as Kung Lao to get to the top 8 but it isn't neccessarily skills that effect the tiers its actually the tools of the character.

Very interesting.

Ok so what if I was to say something crazy like I think Kung Lao is better than Skarlet. If I was to say that and use it based on tournament results. Like if I was to say that Kung Lao hits harder than Skarlet, that her Krushing Blows don't seem as much of a threat as Lao's and so therefore I think he is higher than Skarlet would that even fly? Do we look at Skarlet's tools as a whole there and compare them to Lao's or would people listen to me based on tournament results? Would people just be like well what has Skarlet done?

Application of the tools I am understanding is what solidifies the tier list I suppose.

I am just making conversation because I do notice on social media sites such as twitter that a character is discussed if they win a tournament or are close to winning one regardless of their tier placement or if a top player uses a character then they are discussed.

By the way I am not saying Lao is better than Skarlet but I am bringing light to possible future discussions when you don't see characters in a tournament setting at future tournaments but you do still see these mid tier characters doing well.



I am only curious because this games tier list isn't as straight forward as it was in MK9 or MKX.

In MK9 the mid tier characters barely made top 8. It was mostly the top tier characters.

In this game there seems to be room for a Kung Lao mid tier character to do well in a tournament.

Maybe its too soon to judge so I guess we will see.

 

[Vslayer]

So essentially there is an element of skill to the characters using characters such as Kung Lao to get to the top 8 but it isn't neccessarily skills that effect the tiers its actually the tools of the character.

Very interesting.

Ok so what if I was to say something crazy like I think Kung Lao is better than Skarlet. If I was to say that and use it based on tournament results. Like if I was to say that Kung Lao hits harder than Skarlet, that her Krushing Blows don't seem as much of a threat as Lao's and so therefore I think he is higher than Skarlet would that even fly? Do we look at Skarlet's tools as a whole there and compare them to Lao's or would people listen to me based on tournament results? Would people just be like well what has Skarlet done?

Application of the tools I am understanding is what solidifies the tier list I suppose.

I am just making conversation because I do notice on social media sites such as twitter that a character is discussed if they win a tournament or are close to winning one regardless of their tier placement or if a top player uses a character then they are discussed.

By the way I am not saying Lao is better than Skarlet but I am bringing light to possible future discussions when you don't see characters in a tournament setting at future tournaments but you do still see these mid tier characters doing well.



I am only curious because this games tier list isn't as straight forward as it was in MK9 or MKX.

In MK9 the mid tier characters barely made top 8. It was mostly the top tier characters.

In this game there seems to be room for a Kung Lao mid tier character to do well in a tournament.

Maybe its too soon to judge so I guess we will see.

Yeah, I think that you should judge based on tools and not on tourney placement. I feel like sure it may be easier to win with certain characters over others if you follow tier lists. But if you can use a mid-tier or low tier character skillfully then you can get them far. Ultimately tho, I think that only top tier characters have won tournaments so far. Cassie won CEO, EB won Viennality, and Sonya won Combo Breaker.

For what it's worth, I think KL probably wins over Skarlet since most zoners get outmatched by people who have teleports in this game.

 

[villainous monk]

Yes. I think it's a part of what determines top tiers especially for placing (carrying you lol) in a way but it's not to solely based on it.

Match ups.
Skill set.
Tools set.
Arch types.
Execution on how easy or hard the character is.
Known bugs or option selects.
Mobility
Even down to the frames. If they got great frames. Great buttons. A majority of plus on block frames or anything else that what kinda makes a tier list seem important.
There are tons more to go by as well this is just a few.

Like I said. It "seems" important mind you because it's mostly opinionated or sometimes biased with a agenda behind it. But if you look at the above lists and form your own placement and include tourny results then I would even say it's a fair assessment.

 

[SaltShaker]

"Do they have an effect on tier placement?" Easily answered.

-They absolutely do, but they absolutely shouldn't.

Character usage is completely irrelevant in regards to character toolsets. We've seen countless times characters be underused while being one of or if not the best in the game, while countless times characters overused that weren't top tier. Just because no one placed for an infinity with MMH, and when they did it was literally just one person doing it, doesn't mean he wasn't clearly the best character in the game. Just because barely anyone played Leo in T7 for two years and actually won nothing at all doesn't mean she wasn't the best character or top 3 the entire time. You'd think after decades of seeing it we still wouldn't correlate tiers to usage, but it still happens often.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

I think at the highest levels of competition, it definitely has an effect on tiers. Top players have a much better understanding of the game and what makes a character strong than your average mid level player.

Foxy Grampa and Spalsh have shown the viability of Kung Lao despite people saying he's trash for the first couple of months of the game.

It's still early in the game as well so I still think the tiers are still being sorted out. Cassie was considered upper mid when the game came out and now she's considered the best by some and Kung Lao is better than we thought as well.

The skill level of a player is always going to be the deciding factor in who's going to win. I used some top tiers in Mk9 and got bodied by Sheeva lol. That's just the player being better than me. If a mid level player uses top tier and top player uses a mid or low tier character, the better player is going to win more often than not.

 

[Espionage]

Yes. I think it's a part of what determines top tiers especially for placing (carrying you lol) in a way but it's not to solely based on it.

Match ups.
Skill set.
Tools set.
Arch types.
Execution on how easy or hard the character is.
Known bugs or option selects.
Mobility
Even down to the frames. If they got great frames. Great buttons. A majority of plus on block frames or anything else that what kinda makes a tier list seem important.
There are tons more to go by as well this is just a few.

Like I said. It "seems" important mind you because it's mostly opinionated or sometimes biased with a agenda behind it. But if you look at the above lists and form your own placement and include tourny results then I would even say it's a fair assessment.

Villainous Monk I have a question.

You mentioned Skill set and tool set.

What about universal tools such as flawless block?

Can the ability to consistently flawless block shift tiers?

So can a players skill to flawless block now become apart of their tool set as a character and so in turn effect the tier list?

People are now finding option selects to flawless block more consistently. If its execution heavy than does that effect the tier list in regards to the tools of the characters and how flawless block will change the block advantage?

For example I saw at VSFIGHTING F0xy was using Cassie and he flawless blocked one of Kabal's attacks and full combo punished him but he didn't full combo punish with U2, he used one of Cassie's strings to punish.

So if stuff like that happens then how will that be seen in regards to the tools they have or is that just down to player skill and not seen as a part of the characters tools per se?

I thank you for your feedback?

 

[Hellbringer]

I think if you see your opponent do something over and over, then good players will see that and then adjust to it. Gimmicks on their own are easy to stop, but if you combine gimmicks then it becomes harder. For example, D1 into kano ball, you have to block. D1 into command grab you can't be blocking. D1 into grab, you have to tech or neutral duck so then it creates a guessing game, but that's what low tier characters in this game sort of have to do to survive.

Kung Lao can do F4 into grab, so you have to tech or neutral duck, or he does F4 into spin which if the opponent is blocking, it's punishable.

I believe that it's more skill and mixups reliant than anything else. Because as I said, they have to mix you up to get some damage (usually pretty low) whereas other characters get full combos off of mix-ups.

MU knowledge is also a thing, but less so after figuring out gimmicks. After that, it's all about figuring out patterns and guessing right.

To correct you, kung lao cant do f4 into grab. I think you mean wether hes gonna do f4 or throw after knockdown or after plus frames.

 

[Afumba]

For most tierlists out there they do but i think they shouldnt. I prefer a tierlist solely based on a MU chart.

Tournaments have variables that in my opinion shouldnt take consideration in a tierlist.

 

[Espionage]

"Do they have an effect on tier placement?" Easily answered.

-They absolutely do, but they absolutely shouldn't.

Character usage is completely irrelevant in regards to character toolsets. We've seen countless times characters be underused while being one of or if not the best in the game, while countless times characters overused that weren't top tier. Just because no one placed for an infinity with MMH, and when they did it was literally just one person doing it, doesn't mean he wasn't clearly the best character in the game. Just because barely anyone played Leo in T7 for two years and actually won nothing at all doesn't mean she wasn't the best character or top 3 the entire time. You'd think after decades of seeing it we still wouldn't correlate tiers to usage, but it still happens often.

Saltshaker you are right in regards to MMH because really it was expected that Jupiter would win EVO because he had the best character in the game. However it was not MMH winning the most in the prime of the game.

MMH had so much tools and some of the tools weren't even being used that could of been used.

However characters such as Zod and Batgirl were up there however at that same EVO you also had characters like Deathstroke get in the top 8 and he was regarded to be mid as well.

I think the logic especially now is that e-sports is a big thing now and so people are more than likely gonna gravitate towards the tools that will get them the win especially if they have a sponsor. There are a lot more sponsors now and a lot more money involved in these events so you would think that people would go for the characters that have the most chance to be successful.

When people view this then it does make one think that these are the best characters because this is what is on display at the very highest level of play.

Though in me saying that I do have to openly admit that Sonic used Joker to win the last major Injustice 2 pro series tournament and I think everybody knows that Joker's not anywhere near top tier lol.

Anyway I definitely understand what you are saying. It is a cycle that people will always be caught in when it comes to tiers.

 

[Espionage]

For most tierlists out there they do but i think they shouldnt. I prefer a tierlist solely based on a MU chart.

Tournaments have variables that in my opinion shouldnt take consideration in a tierlist.

I was watching a youtube video saying Kung Lao is complete and utter trash and has absoutely nothing going for him. Yet I have seen him do well in CEO, Viennality and I recently saw him win VSFIGHTING as well as get 2nd place at Defend the North.

If I see that and I say I think he's mid tier but then the other person in the youtube videos and comments are like nah this tournament in the EU don't count and this tournament doesn't count because these players weren't here, and this tournament don't count because they didn't know the match-up then how do we know how and when those characters shift in the tier list?

I also understand your point on MU charts which would then have one question entire tier lists period but top players still make them anyway and it does seem based off of tournament results more often than not.

 

[SaSSolino]

They shouldn't in my opinion, but it's hard not to take them into consideration even subconsciously when making a tier list.

Tier lists should be based around tools, match-ups and, on a lighter note, the game's meta. Gimmicks are to be counted as well in my opinion, since nobody can play every match up perfectly, but of course they can't have the same value as other factors.

 

[TaserFace007]

People have been calling things like Kung Lao's going into a throw or an attack a gimmick. How would that be a gimmick instead of a 50/50? I would see a gimmick as something which can work well if you don't know how to deal with it but doesn't work if you do - such as how Scorpion's raw teleport can be devastatingly effective against low level players but is almost useless against good players. That would be a gimmicky move which Scorpion has that can give him a serious advantage until he comes up against someone who can block and punish it.

With Kung Lao, however, even if you know he's going into an attack or a throw, you still have to make a guess about whether he's going into an attack or a throw, so it's no more of a gimmick than if someone can cancel a move into either an overhead or a low. His teleport could be called gimmicky, since it's really effective against anyone who hasn't learned to either D1 or jump, but his going into a throw or attack when he has plus frames would seem to me to be a 50/50 instead.

 

[Wetdoba]

Lao is degenerate