Nerfing the Top Tiers

[Wigy]

Calling it now, when the top tiers get nerfed kabal and baraka are going to be a problem

 

[BeastOfManila]

apart from obvious fixes (ie: highborn kitana, @$$ tier shao khan), I say delay the dedicated balance patch till end of the year.

 

[DarkSado]

I don't mean to sound rude but some of these are blatantly nonsensical changes. Acid isn't even a problem for example, and yet you want it to hurt erron? Geras sand trap/quick sand being a low at one specific distance? They make no sense. You also have to keep in mind plenty of people play seriously with custom variations and your Scud shot suggestion is a bit of a middle finger to us.

The scout shot is not gonna affect you if you playing custom lol.

 

[ShadyHeart]

Well... yeah. You can do that now. That's how custom variations work, you can add whatever moves you want if they fit in the slots. His whole video is clearly about balancing competitive variations, what exactly is your point?

To balance the game in general obviously.

 

[GLoRToR]

Everything that breaks the neutral needs to change first of all. Advancing mid launchers. Teleport. Especially Scorpions. No MB on whiff or block, make it a high.
And then damage needs to get adjusted.
Jaxette's cancels need to cost meter or be negative like other cancels, too.

 

[BuffRaiden]

I don't like the subzero downplay one bit, That character is still playing mkx, you guess wrong you get blown up. idc what the top 1% of the player base thinks of him, that character is as cheap as it gets and have to get nerfed with the rest.

Said the scrub losing to mediocre sub zero players online.

I play kabal and Raiden, and sub zero is as much of a threat to me as a 40 year man in hot topic clothes.

If you’re losing to people spamming f2 that’s your own fault. His main tools are b1 and B3.

 

[Pan1cMode]

I’d actually nerf Jacqui and Sonya further tbh:

Sonya
extra scaling on b123 (don’t need the scaling on the ring cancel then) [she should be doing like 335 for a bar and just under 400 in the corner)

db4 hits mid at all distances


Jacqui
Extra damage scaling off f3 (midscreen off f3 should do 300 for a bar)

b22 -9 on block


By the same token I think Jacqui’s other variation needs some work. I’ve no idea why they’ve given her dive bomb and tech shield when bionic Bounce and air amplified shot make so much more sense for that variation.


As for the Erron nerfs, I don’t know about removing the skud shot, but I’d give it 2 changes:

• amplified skud shot hits high.
• 5 extra recovery frames

I also don’t know about making his launchers cost meter; it would honestly be better if they touched his f4 instead. If they made the vertical hitbox slightly worse so you could actually jump it, that would be helpful.

Jaxette's cancels need to cost meter or be negative like other cancels, too.

They are negative. Every part of the f314 string and the cancel is negative.

112 cancel is negative.

22 cancel is 0 (but it’s barely used anyways; sure make this -ve too)

b4 cancel is -3 (again it’s never used lol).

 

[ValeDJ]

It just makes no sense why cancellable moves for the most part take up one bar of meter, yet Jacqui's cancels give the middle finger to this rule. Considering the KC kept banging on how cancels use up resources...

 

[Blewdew]

Everything that breaks the neutral needs to change first of all. Advancing mid launchers. Teleport. Especially Scorpions. No MB on whiff or block, make it a high.
And then damage needs to get adjusted.
Jaxette's cancels need to cost meter or be negative like other cancels, too.

no mb on whiff and block is totally fine but make it a high is nonsense.

 

[GLoRToR]

no mb on whiff and block is totally fine but make it a high is nonsense.

So you think that a tracking 12f mid launcher that bypasses all forms of neutral and leads to a 50% combo is not nonsense?
You must be clinically insane.

Name one more tracking mid launcher in the game that leads to similar damage that requires literally no other condition to land a hit with than that the opponent whiffs a move that has 12 frames of recovery or more, or starts up a move that hits later than the 12th frame. Anywhere on screen.
Throws are 10f, only 2f faster and you don't see people consistently ducking throws either, that's a read.
Teleport becoming a high will just mean that there is a CHANCE that you can duck it. Not going to happen all that often especially since, you know, 12f startup, hits you if you breathe.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

So you think that a tracking 12f mid launcher that bypasses all forms of neutral and leads to a 50% combo is not nonsense?
You must be clinically insane.

Now we know you don't lab. Scorpions Teleport is 23 frames startup NOT 12.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Banish Reborn Scorpion cancelling teleport to non-competitive play.
Don't think of this as a nerf but as a quality of life update

 

[The_Tile]

Calling it now, when the top tiers get nerfed kabal and baraka are going to be a problem

Shhh

 

[magandi]

Scudshot being removed I don't think is the right asnwer. I think they should limit how long he can sit in it as a stance so he can't stare you down in acid as long.

the move doesn't need a nerf. it just doesn't belong in his first variation.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

I think REO's changes are pretty good overall.

Scud Shot is a great move and I don't think it should be tweaked to make it fit into 52 Kard Pickup. If it is removed from the variation but the move itself remains untouched, it could fit well in a new tournament variation. Scud shot is actually so good I think it should take 2 slots in the next tournament variation. So they should leave the move untouched but remove it from 52 Kard Pickup.

 

[GLoRToR]

Now we know you don't lab. Scorpions Teleport is 23 frames startup NOT 12.

Then frame data on PC is fucked. Legit says 12f startup on the screen.
I'll check again later.

Either way, mid launcher that bypasses neutral and leads to insane damage.

 

[Elias6999]

apart from obvious fixes (ie: highborn kitana, @$$ tier shao khan), I say delay the dedicated balance patch till end of the year.

Shao Kahn isn’t that bad. Frost and D’vorah are WAY worse.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

Then frame data on PC is fucked. Legit says 12f startup on the screen.
I'll check again later.

Either way, mid launcher that bypasses neutral and leads to insane damage.

How does it bypass neutral when you can't MB on block? Does Shao Kahn's shoulder bypass neutral too then? Fuck is wrong with people?
If you can't hit 11 or 12 after blocking that, you deserve to lose.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

apart from obvious fixes (ie: highborn kitana, @$$ tier shao khan), I say delay the dedicated balance patch till end of the year.

Shao Kahn isn't low tier. You just haven't played a good Shao Kahn yet.

Kitana Highborn just needs a better Krushing Blow requirement on her High Blood Stance 1, I think that would be enough for now.

 

[Zerosoulreaver]

I dunno if I agree, The devs mentioned early on about adding variations. With all the dlc coming I believe they may add another legal torny variation. If they decide to nerf top tier now it may be a bad idea if they have a new variation is allowed. I would rather they buff the lower characters who clearly need it based on their base moves. The issue is they need something and nerfing top tiers aint gonna fix the lower characters at all.

I think it’s best to leave things as is and focus on obviously weak in general characters first. When I say weak I mean basing on their general play. Characters like D’vorah. I personally think she's a character who’s gameplay clashes with her design concept. Shes a setup character who can’t really do what she does best but Erron gets free acid setups and he doesn’t need it by design. I think that is pretty messed up and needs some middle ground between the 2 concepts.

 

[GLoRToR]

How does it bypass neutral when you can't MB on block? Does Shao Kahn's shoulder bypass neutral too then? Fuck is wrong with people?
If you can't hit 11 or 12 after blocking that, you deserve to lose.

Does Shao Kahn's shoulder exit the screen away from the opponent only to pop up behind them too?

 

[NeonGroovyGator]

I agree.
People saying "just buff everyone else" low key just want the MKX fiesta again and that's the best way to fuck the game's lifespan and competitive integrity.
There are other ways to make the game more fun and varied.

 

[Metzos]

How does it bypass neutral when you can't MB on block? Does Shao Kahn's shoulder bypass neutral too then? Fuck is wrong with people?
If you can't hit 11 or 12 after blocking that, you deserve to lose.

Did you seriously compare SK shoulder with Scorpion's tp?

 

[BeastOfManila]

Shao Kahn isn't low tier. You just haven't played a good Shao Kahn yet.

Kitana Highborn just needs a better Krushing Blow requirement on her High Blood Stance 1, I think that would be enough for now.

re: shao khan

I watched jackal and I know he (shao) has his strengths. but he's just terrible at zoning (lol) and his pokes are all too slow. his strings are all unsafe and his only safe attack string (44) is a high. the rest of the cast has better block strings than him.

re: kitana highborn

I was actually referring to the inconsistency here
(https://testyourmight.com/threads/inconsistent-frame-data-in-highborn-variation-db-2.70573/)

 

[Blewdew]

So you think that a tracking 12f mid launcher that bypasses all forms of neutral and leads to a 50% combo is not nonsense?
You must be clinically insane.

Name one more tracking mid launcher in the game that leads to similar damage that requires literally no other condition to land a hit with than that the opponent whiffs a move that has 12 frames of recovery or more, or starts up a move that hits later than the 12th frame. Anywhere on screen.
Throws are 10f, only 2f faster and you don't see people consistently ducking throws either, that's a read.
Teleport becoming a high will just mean that there is a CHANCE that you can duck it. Not going to happen all that often especially since, you know, 12f startup, hits you if you breathe.

because reborn would be the most useless variation in the game. making teleport a high would literally destroy any reason to play this variation. SR isn't even that bad to play against because if you know how to punish teleport consistently it's not that big of a deal. yes it leads to good damage (not even close to 50% stop over exaggerating) but has a big risk.
reborn however let's you guess 3 times and even if his b14 tp cancel is punishable the fear of getting launched because of ex tele makes it impossible to react to.
not amp'ing on block would be enough, making it a high would nerf him way too much.