Jax General Discussion

[wsj515]

I can hit the F2 pretty consistently to be honest, the problem is connecting with the second D12 after. Basically, based on the height i get the hit, sometimes the second D12 misses, so i was wondering if there was some sort of cue to guaranteed the juggle. Could depend on the hitbox of the character i'm doing it on? idk if the combo is character specific to be honest

Try doing a micro-dash after the f2, I've found that I can be less consistent with my f2 and still get both d12s this way.

 

[ATIWAB]

You can't reversal poke. That's the point. What's happening here is that Shao Khan is letting go of block/neutral ducking the grab, then poking. It's a really important distinction, and am happy to explain why if you decide you actually want to know and learn the character, rather than continuing to spew misinformation. Just play GB if you hate the grab so much, its a better variation if you never use the grab.

You have no business telling someone to go back to the lab when you actually thought that quad grab did 7% with no resources. Hilarious.

Go back to the lab.

You low-profile the grab by counter-poking, dummy. "You let go of block during the grab" is obvious if you're counter-poking D1 in the first place since you can't fucking D1 while holding block anyway.

You're way too condescending for someone who is constantly wrong.

 

[wsj515]

Go back to the lab.

You low-profile the grab by counter-poking, dummy. "You let go of block during the grab" is obvious if you're counter-poking D1 in the first place since you can't fucking D1 while holding block anyway.

You're way too condescending for someone who is constantly wrong.

I'm going to spell this out so other people don't get confused by your madness.

You cannot REVERSAL poke. Do you not know what that means?

Jax's d1 has a 7f startup and is -3 on block. That means if they're not reversal poking, its highly likely that a second d1 after you recover from the first one will connect. We've now established a pseudo 50/50 situation where the opponent has to guess between d1, d1 or d1xxdbf1.

They cannot reversal poke, so they will get beaten if they mash. If they don't mash, then they're probably reading the dbf1, so a better player will now (post bug fix) d2 KB, or neutral duck into full combo. D2s are often even slower than d1s, so that makes d1, d1 even more legit. Baraka has a 10f d2, one of the best in the game, and he has to be within 1 frame to not get beaten or trade with your d1. If they start neutral ducking, you can hit them with f3, which they'll likely block, but now you get to stagger.


All of this is very much paper/theory fighting, but we've seen time and time again that command grabs are always even better in practice than on paper. Turns out, people like to block. That's we see so many more pros holding block and reacting to throws with a tech so much more often than harding reading and d2 KBing or neutral ducking.

 

[ATIWAB]

I'm going to spell this out so other people don't get confused by your madness.

You cannot REVERSAL poke. Do you not know what that means?

Jax's d1 has a 7f startup and is -3 on block. That means if they're not reversal poking, its highly likely that a second d1 after you recover from the first one will connect. We've now established a pseudo 50/50 situation where the opponent has to guess between d1, d1 or d1xxdbf1.

They cannot reversal poke, so they will get beaten if they mash. If they don't mash, then they're probably reading the dbf1, so a better player will now (post bug fix) d2 KB, or neutral duck into full combo. D2s are often even slower than d1s, so that makes d1, d1 even more legit. Baraka has a 10f d2, one of the best in the game, and he has to be within 1 frame to not get beaten or trade with your d1. If they start neutral ducking, you can hit them with f3, which they'll likely block, but now you get to stagger.


All of this is very much paper/theory fighting, but we've seen time and time again that command grabs are always even better in practice than on paper. Turns out, people like to block. That's we see so many more pros holding block and reacting to throws with a tech so much more often than harding reading and d2 KBing or neutral ducking.

This is a really long way to say "you're right, I was wrong, you can d1 out of the command grab even on block."

 

[wsj515]

@ShArp You were right, I should have listened.

 

[ATIWAB]

@ShArp You were right, I should have listened.

"... That means if they're not reversal poking ... "

So you can poke out of the D1xxDBF1 by counter-poking with your own D1. Which is what I said. And showed you a video of.

If you do D1, D1 instead, you're still going to get counter-poked into a D1 Kounter on block if they're mashing D1. Because it's -3 on block.

This isn't that complicated. Do you need another video?

 

[wsj515]

"... That means if they're not reversal poking ... "

So you can poke out of the D1xxDBF1 by counter-poking with your own D1. Which is what I said. And showed you a video of.

If you do D1, D1 instead, you're still going to get counter-poked on block if they're mashing D1. Because it's -3 on block.

This isn't that complicated. Do you need another video?

In fighting games, what does the word reversal mean to you?

 

[ATIWAB]

In fighting games, what does the word reversal mean to you?

You realize this is irrelevant in both your scenarios, right?

D1 on reaction to a blocked D1 into another D1 (your "D1, D1" of the "pseudo 50/50") is a Kounter with 13f hit advantage.
D1 on reaction to a blocked D1 into an attempt at the DBF1 (your other "pseudo 50/50" option) is a Punish with 13f hit advantage.

If you need to test this, it's pretty easy to lab.

Recording slot one -- mash D1 as fast as possible.
Recording slot two -- D1xxDBF1

Put the playback on Random. Practice reacting on the blocked D1 with your own D1 regardless of what "50/50" is coming next.

You will never get hit by either of them.

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[wsj515]

You realize this is irrelevant in both your scenarios, right?

D1 on reaction to a blocked D1 into another D1 (your "D1, D1" of the "pseudo 50/50") is a Kounter with 13f hit advantage.
D1 on reaction to a blocked D1 into an attempt at the DBF1 (your other "pseudo 50/50" option) is a Punish with 13f hit advantage.

If you need to test this, it's pretty easy to lab.

Recording slot one -- mash D1 as fast as possible.
Recording slot two -- D1xxDBF1

Put the playback on Random. Practice reacting on the blocked D1 with your own D1 regardless of what "50/50" is coming next.

You will never get hit by either of them.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Have you done this? Because I just did, you cannot react. For fun, I threw in recording slot 3 d1, walk back f3, its a pretty brutal guessing game.

You're lying if you think you can react and counter/punsh what is essentially a 10f mid.

 

[ATIWAB]

Have you done this? Because I just did, you cannot react. For fun, I threw in recording slot 3 d1, walk back f3, its a pretty brutal guessing game.

You're lying if you think you can react and counter/punsh what is essentially a 10f mid.

"have you done this? because I just did, you cannot react.. you're lying if you think you can react and kounter/punish ..."

I literally just posted a video of it in the post you're quoting.

Sounds like maybe you're just bad at the game.

 

[wsj515]

"have you done this? because I just did, you cannot react.. you're lying if you think you can react and kounter/punish ..."

I literally just posted a video of it in the post you're quoting.

Sounds like maybe you're just bad at the game.

There's no context to that video, and I can immediately see flaws in how you set up the recording. You could also be looking at the recoding slots at the top.

Or, I'm wrong, and you are reacting to 10 frames, in which case you would be the best FG player to ever live.

Either way, this is stupid - I'm not going to argue anymore, and anyone who wants to know the truth can set this up with integrity and see how ridiculous this is.

 

[ATIWAB]

There's no context to that video, and I can immediately see flaws in how you set up the recording. You could also be looking at the recoding slots at the top.

Or, I'm wrong, and you are reacting to 10 frames, in which case you would be the best FG player to ever live.

Either way, this is stupid - I'm not going to argue anymore, and anyone who wants to know the truth can set this up with integrity and see how ridiculous this is.

"I know you just showed me a video proving exactly what you were saying the entire time, but I'm going to choose to ignore it"

You don't need to "look at the recording slots." That's the entire point I'm trying to get across to you. No matter what follow-up you have to your blocked D1, a counter D1 will poke you out of it because it's -4 on block and low profiles the QG.

I don't know how else to get this across to you. I thought a video would be enough, but apparently it's "not possible" .. in spite of video evidence that it very much is.

 

[wsj515]

No matter what follow-up you have to your blocked D1, a counter D1 will poke you out of it because it's -4 on block and low profiles the QG.

Lol this will be my last message but I can't help it. This straight up isn't true, if you input a d1 in order to beat a follow up d1, aka a "reversal" d1, you will get grabbed by quad grab.

I honestly can't tell if you don't understand what reversals are/how they work, or are lying for the sake of it. You never responded with your definition of a reversal, or have ever mentioned it, so I'm assuming ignorance.

 

[ATIWAB]

Lol this will be my last message but I can't help it. This straight up isn't true, if you input a d1 in order to beat a follow up d1, aka a "reversal" d1, you will get grabbed by quad grab.

I honestly can't tell if you don't understand what reversals are/how they work, or are lying for the sake of it. You never responded with your definition of a reversal, or have ever mentioned it, so I'm assuming ignorance.

If you input a D1 after a blocked D1, you will beat out their second D1 every time. Period. Your D1 also ducks you under the QG, so no, you won't get grabbed by it.

I literally just showed you a video of this.

You can go set it up in the lab yourself and try it. The reaction time isn't even that hard. Use the sound cue on block.

 

[Zgf]

Jax feels really fun to play with Kustom moves. Originally, I started out with him but got kind of bored with the character. But playing with him in the lab and using Enhanced Outranked, Duck and Weave and Expert Grappler make him so much stronger.

You're basically playing Jacqui with the cancels, and Enhanced Outranked is 0 on block, making it safe if you do the entire string. Its also allows a mixup and better pressure since it can be canceled into Duck and Weave.

This has probably already been pointed out but it really excites me how much better Jax could potentially be with Kustoms in Tournaments.

 

[ATIWAB]

Jax feels really fun to play with Kustom moves. Originally, I started out with him but got kind of bored with the character. But playing with him in the lab and using Enhanced Outranked, Duck and Weave and Expert Grappler make him so much stronger.

You're basically playing Jacqui with the cancels, and Enhanced Outranked is 0 on block, making it safe if you do the entire string. Its also allows a mixup and better pressure since it can be canceled into Duck and Weave.

This has probably already been pointed out but it really excites me how much better Jax could potentially be with Kustoms in Tournaments.

I love Enhanced Outranked, it makes his heat missile combo a no brainer and his cancel options off of it are great. I like it with Ripped instead of Duck and Weave though, first four hits into Amp'd Ripped juggle + ender is an easy 30% every time.

 

[Youngak76]

Anyone know why if you get the dummy to mash d1 and you hit them with a f4 on counter hit f4 is actually -5~-6 is this a bug or intended to create a meta game with his special cancel mid bf 2 which done after a delay counter hits them for pushing buttons. I can’t see why a button ever should be negative on hit here's a link to me trying it out in training.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1136893895332192256

 

[Zgf]

I love Enhanced Outranked, it makes his heat missile combo a no brainer and his cancel options off of it are great. I like it with Ripped instead of Duck and Weave though, first four hits into Amp'd Ripped juggle + ender is an easy 30% every time.

I haven't tried Ripped yet but that's picqued my interest. I'll definitely be experimenting with it, thanks.

 

[ATIWAB]

Anyone know why if you get the dummy to mash d1 and you hit them with a f4 on counter hit f4 is actually -5~-6 is this a bug or intended to create a meta game with his special cancel mid bf 2 which done after a delay counter hits them for pushing buttons.

I just checked it out and yeah, that's fucking weird man, it looks like it totally skips all the normal hit frames and is still working off the hit frames from the original F2.

 

[Youngak76]

I just checked it out and yeah, that's fucking weird man, it looks like it totally skips all the normal hit frames and is still working off the hit frames from the original F2.

Even with no f2 it will still register as -6 on a d1 CH this needs to be fixed as f4 is extremely good for jax’s Pressure and footsie game

 

[Youngak76]

I just checked it out and yeah, that's fucking weird man, it looks like it totally skips all the normal hit frames and is still working off the hit frames from the original F2.

Ok this is weird so I found if you hit an opponent who is just crouching with f4 it puts you at -6 it has nothing to do with counter hit also it seems like on block and hit that f4 jails you in whatever state that you were previously in for the f4 2 follow up so they are crouch blocking or you hit them crouching you are faked for the f4 2 follow up and negative when f4 hits this doesn’t seem right at all....

 

[Halfnha1f]

quick tip against shao kahn. jax can punish his hammer toss every time he throws it out on block.(unless your in the corner). just backdash then dash punch. also works with his heated arm missiles if your using the other variation.

 

[MrArcher15]

Amazing set between gunshow and sonic

 

[ATIWAB]

How many of you guys are using the "free" full-charge B2 on JI2 again after you get a KB with it the first time? Because I've been ignoring it after the KB but was messing with it more this morning.

It's still an easy 27.6-30% 1-bar (depending on heat) in Hunker Down even after you use up the KB since you can convert it to an Amp'd BF4 on the bounce. Never really thought about it after testing to see if it hits with his B1 or F4 (they don't) or BF2 (it does but damage is 21-23%, whiffs the Amp'd version and only good for corner carry) and then forgetting about it, but was messing around this morning to see if it's useful outside the corner, and this definitely counts as useful IMO.

Any other conversions off the non-KB full B2 I've been missing?

 

[wsj515]

How many of you guys are using the "free" full-charge B2 on JI2 again after you get a KB with it the first time? Because I've been ignoring it after the KB but was messing with it more this morning.

It's still an easy 27.6-30% 1-bar (depending on heat) in Hunker Down even after you use up the KB since you can convert it to an Amp'd BF4 on the bounce. Never really thought about it after testing to see if it hits with his B1 or F4 (they don't) or BF2 (it does but damage is 21-23%, whiffs the Amp'd version and only good for corner carry) and then forgetting about it, but was messing around this morning to see if it's useful outside the corner, and this definitely counts as useful IMO.

Any other conversions off the non-KB full B2 I've been missing?

j2 b2 dash f2xxdbf1 256.66 no bar no heat, 285.73 one bar no heat, and you get to choose sides.