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TYM’s Tier List Discussion Thread

Ayx

Ayx

Omnipresent
StormGoddess said:
PND Ketchup's Post-Combo Breaker Tier List

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i enjoy ketchups knowledge but cmon putting Cassie in S tier? I remember when S tier was reserved for 1-2 characters that were ABSOLUTELY on top. I'm talking vanilla SF4 Sagat for example. Where there's virtually NO bad matchups and maybe a stretch w/ even 5-5s. These guys are smacking Jacqui on S like she doesn't struggle against zoners like Cetrion, Skarlet etc. in her current variations for komp and slapping Cassie on S like Jade doesn't absolutely dump on her because she's forced to use normals that Jade can really control spacing with.

My point is these characters' archtypes have some considerate flaws and that alone shouldn't qualify for S tier. People are just slapping them up there because it makes them sound more OP than they really are.
 
M2Dave

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Ayx said:
i enjoy ketchups knowledge but cmon putting Cassie in S tier? I remember when S tier was reserved for 1-2 characters that were ABSOLUTELY on top. I'm talking vanilla SF4 Sagat for example. Where there's virtually NO bad matchups and maybe a stretch w/ even 5-5s.
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The letters are occasionally arbitrary. In other words, S tier is not necessarily equivalent to "god tier" or "super top tier". Tekken 7 is a very well-balanced game, but some players still classify the top tier characters as S tier.

On a different note, or observation rather, if D'Vorah is the worst character in the game, according to the vast majority of tier lists, why is Sonic Fox beating Scar's Sonya?


If the argument is that Scar lacks match up experience against D'Vorah with Sonya, why is 95% of the community so certain that she is the worst character in the game? I also have to ask whether people are judging current D'Vorah based on pre-release D'Vorah when the game was not even supposed to be played.

I am neither trolling nor implying that she is secretly top tier. I am just curious how he can be beating Scar, the guy who just beat him a couple of days ago, with the worst character in the game.
 
xenogorgeous

xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
M2Dave said:
The letters are occasionally arbitrary. In other words, S tier is not necessarily equivalent to "god tier" or "super top tier". Tekken 7 is a very well-balanced game, but some players still classify the top tier characters as S tier.

On a different note, or observation rather, if D'Vorah is the worst character in the game, according to the vast majority of tier lists, why is Sonic Fox beating Scar's Sonya?


If the argument is that Scar lacks match up experience against D'Vorah with Sonya, why is 95% of the community so certain that she is the worst character in the game? I also have to ask whether people are judging current D'Vorah based on pre-release D'Vorah when the game was not even supposed to be played.

I am neither trolling nor implying that she is secretly top tier. I am just curious how he can be beating Scar, the guy who just beat him a couple of days ago, with the worst character in the game.
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great argument here .... lots of logical points ;)
 
N

nightcrawlers

Noob
M2Dave said:
The letters are occasionally arbitrary. In other words, S tier is not necessarily equivalent to "god tier" or "super top tier". Tekken 7 is a very well-balanced game, but some players still classify the top tier characters as S tier.

On a different note, or observation rather, if D'Vorah is the worst character in the game, according to the vast majority of tier lists, why is Sonic Fox beating Scar's Sonya?


If the argument is that Scar lacks match up experience against D'Vorah with Sonya, why is 95% of the community so certain that she is the worst character in the game? I also have to ask whether people are judging current D'Vorah based on pre-release D'Vorah when the game was not even supposed to be played.

I am neither trolling nor implying that she is secretly top tier. I am just curious how he can be beating Scar, the guy who just beat him a couple of days ago, with the worst character in the game.
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You also have to remember hit is a casual environment vs a competitive environment. Regardless of what you might think Scar's mentality is playing sonic in these games, he won't play with the same edge - he'll naturally explore the MU (maybe even intentionally).

I fall way more in the scrub category than pro, but I think the tiers are a lot closer than people think. Skill is a wayyyy bigger factor in games than the character choice.

All that being said; I really don't see D'Vorah as anything but the worse character in the game. Look at her frames. Look at her damage - she has to spend meter to get stuff more characters get without. Combo damage that Sonya get's can never be done by D'vorah, so D'vorah has to make the same reads/correct decisions Sonya does just 3x more.
 
Dreamcatcher

Dreamcatcher

EFL Founder
M2Dave said:
Check out Gunshow's YouTube channel. He regularly uploads sets versus tournament players. He uses the variation with the command grab and and performs at a high level. If I remember correctly, he has recently even beaten Semiij in a series.

Jax has limited combo potential, but he has access to three krushing blows that he hits almost every match (i.e., f+2,1+3 or f+3,3,1+3, double amplified command grab, double heated projectile in combos, particularly after krushing blow d+2). Both of Jax's throws are similar to Geras's in terms of advantage and position. You are forced to block f+2 or do wake up attacks. f+2 has a very good whiff recovery so if Jax does f+2 and the opponent remains on the ground, d+1 beats any retaliation, which sets up further okizeme options. Jax also has one of the best fatal blows in the game. It does not hit full screen away but is only slightly slower than Erron Black's and hits mid. It automatically charges heat to maximum and gives Jax great comeback potential. Getting hit by a fatal blow followed by a krushing blow command grab results in 70%+ of damage. He has a 9 frame mid string too.

I could go on, but the point is Jax is no B tier character. Jax being on the same terms as characters like Kollector and Shao Kahn is preposterous. I think he is at least A tier. He plays the meta very well.
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I second this. I watched him play (and take matches from) Tweedy and FoxyGrampa. Gunshow is a beast with Jax.
 
Geoffmeister

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
@Ayx
I've had this exact same thought about Cassie, but Mustard isn't the first to rank her S-tier, many have... but I kinda wonder why..

Sonya and Geras should be self-explanatory by now... Too much damage off too much anything, anywhere.
Cassie is very neutral based, doesn't have any legit mixups but plays MK11 very well.. I think her Low Shot Launcher is whats sets her apart the most, a +2 restand doesn't seem overly strong either, except in the corner. (that being said, I play Jade, she does not always have to approach Cassie, changing the MU drastically)

In my head, Erron, Cassie and Baraka do not have that same presence, and have to at least play the lifelead game. Jacqui, also very neutral based, but very dominant, I can understand her placement a bit more.. Though her throw-counter may be a bit overestimated, I think.

It's also interesting he placed Kano and Frost both in A, whom he both plays. But slightly on the fence about Kano..
D'vorah is unexplored, I believe has one of the best offensive potential and whiff punishers and AA's.. all confirmable into safety or launch... Wouldn't want to place her in a tier-list tbh.

Besides this he could swap Jade with Jax and be perfectly right (imo). All in all, pretty accurate tier-list, and at least goes over the staple-tools and tournament-representation, which makes the list hard to dispute against but also recognizes the room for error.
 
T

trufenix

bye felicia
Ayx said:
My point is these characters' archtypes have some considerate flaws and that alone shouldn't qualify for S tier. People are just slapping them up there because it makes them sound more OP than they really are.
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Well, an actual tier list involves match ups. This is just "my first salty tier list". A B tier character shouldn't even touch an S+, MK11 doesn't have any of those matchups. Not yet.
 
Ayx

Ayx

Omnipresent
M2Dave said:
The letters are occasionally arbitrary. In other words, S tier is not necessarily equivalent to "god tier" or "super top tier". Tekken 7 is a very well-balanced game, but some players still classify the top tier characters as S tier.
Click to expand...
Right, but S tier basically means that they are arguably way above the average 3-4 tiers which means that they (in theory based on komp variation tools and frame data) they are way above or above enough the rest of the kast. Is Cassie strong? Sure. Better than Scorpion? That deserves a pretty big asterisk **. I'm just pointing out how de-valued the S tier rank has become. Basically S rank is the equivalent of A or A+ if they really wanted to make it a difference. I can really see Sonya, Geras (mostly only due to KB damage) and maybe with a sprinkle of love Erron Black deserves S tier.
Geoffmeister said:
@Ayx
I've had this exact same thought about Cassie, but Mustard isn't the first to rank her S-tier, many have... but I kinda wonder why..

Sonya and Geras should be self-explanatory by now... Too much damage off too much anything, anywhere.
Cassie is very neutral based, doesn't have any legit mixups but plays MK11 very well.. I think her Low Shot Launcher is whats sets her apart the most, a +2 restand doesn't seem overly strong either, except in the corner. (that being said, I play Jade, she does not always have to approach Cassie, changing the MU drastically)
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Cassie is very solid that's for sure but I'd say Cassie is one of the more honest MUs/Chars to deal with. Her low shot is good for her angle but in the end it's a mid. She has maybe one KB other than her d2 that's accessible. Geras on the other hand has similar KBs (end of string hit KB, punish KB hit etc.) but they're much more accessible. For example why does Geras have a end of string hit KB that's an overhead with less startup frames than Cassie that her end of string KB hits as a high and if they bait it they get a FREE d2 kb? Yet they're in the same tier? That's only KB situations mind you. Not even counting oki, frame data, the fact that Geras' judo chop basically gives a huge middle finger to zoning when done right etc.

trufenix said:
Well, an actual tier list involves match ups. This is just "my first salty tier list". A B tier character shouldn't even touch an S+, MK11 doesn't have any of those matchups. Not yet.
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But Cassie doesn't exactly favor over chars like Jade & Scorpion and maybe Cetrion (barrier's active frames can stuff her neutral at a pretty fair pace IMO.) and having her above a tier or 2 of those chars just sounds odd.

That's all I have to really say about Cassie. Jacqui kinda follows the same suit. But it's not the first tier list I've seen Cassie so high above the other cast when I think she fairs just about the same. Much less putting her in the same category as chars like Sonya and Geras.
 
Wallach

Wallach

Noob
StormGoddess said:
PND Ketchup's Post-Combo Breaker Tier List

Click to expand...
In my opinion this looks like the most accurate tier list I've seen so far.

The only real outlier (and I feel he is an outlier on most tier lists) is Kabal. Everyone loves to talk up Kabal - no flawless block gaps, great buttons - but nobody is playing him to noticeable success. In my opinion he is dead in the middle of this roster right now; his mix up game is weak, and he plays a very safe footsie / space control game with solid punishes. He's a lot like Sub-Zero in that way, if Sub-Zero had no dangerous mix-up game backing it up at closer range. Or like a Marauder Baraka with an aerial projectile instead of any threat of massive damage.

IMO he belongs in the A tier on this list, and you could swap most of the choices in that range with Kabal. Jade or Jax would be my choices.
 
santanabar

santanabar

Apprentice
StormGoddess said:
PND Ketchup's Post-Combo Breaker Tier List

Click to expand...
Have to disagree on some tiers, especially Cassi, Jacqui and Frost. First of all, a lot of his analysis was based on tournament results (mostly combo breaker). But in same cases... in others not. Like were do we have Cassie and Frost players to justify their tiers? In this version, Frost can never be in the same tier as any of those. Her buttons are terrible, zoning is extremely situational, and her main punish will whiff on like 50% of stuff that it should hit.

Cassie is strong, excellent buttons, but it's a honest character. Nothing bs like sonya and sz 50/50, scorp f*ck neutral teleport, geras endless throw loop, etc. If Cassie hits you, it's because you deserve it.
Jacqui is the best character in terms of pressure, but she has to get in. Like you need to chase every single character in the game, and playing from that position is a million times harder, plus 100% of the roster will outzone you naturally. Also has probably the worst FB in the game. That's a big weakness. And I don't see any weaknesses in the usual big 5 S tier (sony, scorp, geras, sz, eb).
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Wallach said:
In my opinion this looks like the most accurate tier list I've seen so far.

The only real outlier (and I feel he is an outlier on most tier lists) is Kabal. Everyone loves to talk up Kabal - no flawless block gaps, great buttons - but nobody is playing him to noticeable success. In my opinion he is dead in the middle of this roster right now; his mix up game is weak, and he plays a very safe footsie / space control game with solid punishes. He's a lot like Sub-Zero in that way, if Sub-Zero had no dangerous mix-up game backing it up at closer range. Or like a Marauder Baraka with an aerial projectile instead of any threat of massive damage.

IMO he belongs in the A tier on this list, and you could swap most of the choices in that range with Kabal. Jade or Jax would be my choices.
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Of course nobody is gonna play kabal when they can play characters that ignore neutral ( scorpion ), severely dominate it AND have a couple more ridiculous buttons ( erron ), can 50-50 you to death and zone you ( sonya ) or 50-50 you with injustice type 10f mids ( geras ).

It doesn't mean he's not a very high tier character with absolutely fucking stupid buttons ( B1 ), great zoning and a fullscreen presence with nomad dash whos startup looking like him walking back/his backdash, making it very difficult to react to even though it's 20f.
 
Wallach

Wallach

Noob
Qwark28 said:
Of course nobody is gonna play kabal when they can play characters that ignore neutral ( scorpion ), severely dominate it AND have a couple more ridiculous buttons ( erron ), can 50-50 you to death and zone you ( sonya ) or 50-50 you with injustice type 10f mids ( geras ).

It doesn't mean he's not a very high tier character with absolutely fucking stupid buttons ( B1 ), great zoning and a fullscreen presence with nomad dash whos startup looking like him walking back/his backdash, making it very difficult to react to even though it's 20f.
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I didn't say he was weak, just that he's pretty average even with his strengths because the average conversions are too low. He also has incredibly finicky / difficult optimal combo execution compared to most of the roster, and when you fall back to more consistent routes his conversions fall below average. Even dropping 1 bar he's rarely breaking 300 on typical conversions (especially off his better buttons like B12 or F22).

It's not a coincidence you are seeing almost no Kabal compared to these other characters you find in the "A tier" like Skarlet, Cetrion, Noob Saibot or Baraka. I'd honestly rate him lower than Liu Kang as things stand; another good character with some amazing strengths like F4 and a good zoning game, but plays a very "honest" game that mostly relies on the strike/throw stagger mixup to open people up. At least Liu gets more consistent 300+ conversions and has both more dangerous and reliable KBs.

Kabal just does way too much work to clear an entire life bar for dealing with such a dry toolset, I think. He honestly reminds me of Kollector, which everyone is very eager to put near the bottom.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Wallach said:
I didn't say he was weak, just that he's pretty average even with his strengths because the average conversions are too low. He also has incredibly finicky / difficult optimal combo execution compared to most of the roster, and when you fall back to more consistent routes his conversions fall below average. Even dropping 1 bar he's rarely breaking 300 on typical conversions (especially off his better buttons like B12 or F22).

It's not a coincidence you are seeing almost no Kabal compared to these other characters you find in the "A tier" like Skarlet, Cetrion, Noob Saibot or Baraka. I'd honestly rate him lower than Liu Kang as things stand; another good character with some amazing strengths like F4 and a good zoning game, but plays a very "honest" game that mostly relies on the strike/throw stagger mixup to open people up. At least Liu gets more consistent 300+ conversions and has both more dangerous and reliable KBs.

Kabal just does way too much work to clear an entire life bar for dealing with such a dry toolset, I think. He honestly reminds me of Kollector, which everyone is very eager to put near the bottom.
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People used the exact same argument for Cyrax, and he was a much better character. Only 1 person actually showed his potential and it was 8 months before the game had its last alive EVO.

Pickrate doesn't equal viability.
 
Wallach

Wallach

Noob
Qwark28 said:
People used the exact same argument for Cyrax, and he was a much better character. Only 1 person actually showed his potential and it was 8 months before the game had its last alive EVO.

Pickrate doesn't equal viability.
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Pickrate may not be the only marker of tier placement but it's at least some kind of receipt. Certainly moreso than just rattling off a character's strengths on paper.

Even talking strictly about Kabal's strengths in the abstract, nothing in that kit strikes me as deserving of being so quickly put above a character like Liu Kang. Again, if good buttons and hit confirms are enough to keep you out of low tier, why is everyone so eager to throw Kollector there? That character has a hit confirmable 10f mid string, a 10f unduckable command grab, a great stagger in F1, a teleport, BNBs that are actually higher than Kabal's and also immune to breakaway - why isn't any of this enough to stop people from writing him off so easily?

Kabal is definitely a fine character, but I've not seen any compelling argument for putting him in the top 10 like so many are trying to do.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Wallach said:
Pickrate may not be the only marker of tier placement but it's at least some kind of receipt. Certainly moreso than just rattling off a character's strengths on paper.
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So you're going to ignore my point you just quoted and go on with what you said?

According to your guys logic then, Cyrax was never a good character.
 
Wallach

Wallach

Noob
Qwark28 said:
So you're going to ignore my point you just quoted and go on with what you said?

According to your guys logic then, Cyrax was never a good character.
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I responded to your point. The absence of evidence is not evidence of anything.

I'm not sure why you're so stuck on Cyrax anyway; he was a character many considered the worst in the entire game and was shown only to not be totally useless, not great. That was exactly what was reflected in MKX tier lists (and still is). Nobody ever had Cyrax up in the tier lists just waiting for someone to show he wasn't the only useless Triborg variation.

Right now people are putting Kabal up very high even before anyone showing he can compete with other characters people are putting in those tiers.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Wallach said:
I responded to your point. The absence of evidence is not evidence of anything.

I'm not sure why you're so stuck on Cyrax anyway; he was a character many considered the worst in the entire game and was shown only to not be totally useless, not great. That was exactly what was reflected in MKX tier lists (and still is). Nobody ever had Cyrax up in the tier lists just waiting for someone to show he wasn't the only useless Triborg variation.

Right now people are putting Kabal up very high even before anyone showing he can compete with other characters people are putting in those tiers.
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I'm actually referring to MK9 cyrax. The one with 100% resets, 70% unbreakables.

He's also a character that was only properly represented by DJT near the end of the game.

Nobody was showing he can compete with other top tiers either, yet there it was.

There's literally 0 arguments you guys have for kabal not being a top tier character other than "he's not represented".

1 month into the game. In 1 real tournament.
 
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