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MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

@SwiftEagle hear me out, you're sounding a little impatient. Your first games don't mean much. Don't think Johnny's forceballs being good make them free, nothing trades well with iceballs. Also confused why it was wrong for your opponent to FB you. It's part of the game. Johnny can do alright, but play him cause he's fun. If you're not enjoying him find a character that makes you less salty. You're gonna end up a beef jerky at this rate.
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
@SwiftEagle hear me out, you're sounding a little impatient. Your first games don't mean much. Don't think Johnny's forceballs being good make them free, nothing trades well with iceballs. Also confused why it was wrong for your opponent to FB you. It's part of the game. Johnny can do alright, but play him cause he's fun. If you're not enjoying him find a character that makes you less salty. You're gonna end up a beef jerky at this rate.
For me, I think its just trying to still learn the matchups and how to play against certain characters. I just need to lab more, the game just came out, after all.
 
For me, I think its just trying to still learn the matchups and how to play against certain characters. I just need to lab more, the game just came out, after all.
Word man. I've taken other characters into practice mode to see what they can do but haven't examined anything in depth besides Erron's dropkick lol. Been doin alright so far, enough to be having fun.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Yes getting noob d3 spammed to death is fun while everyone with an 11 or 9 frame mid doesn't even know how this feels.
 

K03bIPb

Noob
Is anybody knows how should I end f344? Let’s take a look. u3 - punishable. Balls - duckable, no way for opponent to crouch block. Shadow kick... ehm... too high for me. Flipkick miss on opponent after pushback. First Cages Rage is pokable too then uppercut to 50% combo. So, nutpunch or ninja mime? Full combo punishable.

Two ways: backdash guessing that opponent missed his long range string and punish them or... you can do nothing about the gay who knows MU. F344 end is duckable. Full duckable and an enemy can poke you if you dare to do that mistake string. No option you can apply to your enemy after that string. Always get d4 or d2 or full combo punish for whiff.

Any decisions?
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
I think the usual go-to way is not to end it at all and then try to guess on your -2 if you should d4 into another f344 or throw or just take their mixup and lose.

The kombat kast "intended" way was for you to walk back to bait a poke and then do another f344 or b34 but they obviously didn't play against halfscreen reaching mids like scorpion kabal geras jax cassie etc etc
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
Fucking Shao Khan. I can't play footsies with this asshole. His reach is stupid. Not unbeatable, but a fairly annoying match up. Anyone else struggling with it a bit? I admittedly haven't labbed it enough, but I'm looking for tips.
 
Fucking Shao Khan. I can't play footsies with this asshole. His reach is stupid. Not unbeatable, but a fairly annoying match up. Anyone else struggling with it a bit? I admittedly haven't labbed it enough, but I'm looking for tips.
Best I can say is lame him out with your projectile. I spend a lot of the match running away and zoning him. He's like Cage in that he has a hard time getting in, and being a big body makes it a little more difficult to jump over your enhanced projectiles.

I refuse to believe Shao is bottom tier like so many lists are putting him lol.
 
So I played a bunch of games last night and had mixed success. Overall not one of my best performances. It wasn't cage's fault I lost these matches. I was autopiloting a lot of those games as well as just not being familiar with some matchups.

Instead of getting salty about how Cage fairs in these matchups. I'm gonna sit down and lab the things that were giving me trouble, rather than jumping on the cage sucks train. Obviously there's the issues we all complain about like hitbox on forceballs for example, which actually fucked me over when I was running sets with this kitana. Morale is is that Cage isn't just helpless against the higher tiers. He just needs to work hard which I'm sure will get easier when they give him the QOL changes we've been asking for.
 
You guys know any good cage players to watch? Preferably someone who streams. I know kombat killer is insane but there's only a few matches of him on youtube
 

Tundra81

Kombatant
You guys know any good cage players to watch? Preferably someone who streams. I know kombat killer is insane but there's only a few matches of him on youtube
@Kompetitor has been putting out some real nice Cage content lately, haven't seen him stream at all but here is his YT channel.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP8K_VafqjC3MDgc8wthMXQ

Also no clue who this guy is but he's a Cage main and is pretty solid, nothing special but streams quite a bit.

https://www.twitch.tv/flet1234/videos
 
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D

Deleted member 35141

Guest
Not only do his KBs suck, doing his Character tower and some of them dont count.
Anyone have a clue which ones work???
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
I did the KB requirement by putting the AI on very easy on novice tower, start first hit with nutpunch ex KB, then f43 spam until the KB triggers, then restart match. Repeat x 900000

On an unrelated note, I played some matches against SubZero and Sonya.
The only thing I have to say is this:

 

Rodney Quillz

Kombatant
I get what they were trying to do with Johnny, neutral ducking was supposed to come with the risk of being b3 or f4ed and if you crouch blocked he got f3 pressure.

Problem is that f4s range is bad and b3 is far to slow to be an actual threat, combine with hitbox issues and you have a mediocre character you have to work twice as hard to win with.

Seeing as he has no overhead options I don’t see why b3 can’t be a bit faster, kind of like red hoods b2 in injustice.
 

SwiftEagle

Apprentice
We don't complain that much. Or at least we complain about the things that are obviously bad. I complained in this thread mostly about Show Stopper being a garbage variation, and I'm ready to accept to be wrong if someone proves me that Showstopper is a viable variation. The variation basically removes the nutpunch for a special move which is slower, unsafer on block, recover slower, hits high instead of mid and doesn't connect with f4 midscreen.

Johnny is a good character, we know it, but he lacks reliable krushing blows. The nutpunch one is useless since you lose significant damage over a normal punish and the f43 one will only hit people that fell asleep in front of their game. The f34 is also really risky to use because you can be punished by a d2 krushing blow very easily, so basically you risk a 30%+ punish for only a 24% Krushing Blow. And the move is also a very easy to parry on reaction and can also be full punished on neutral duck. The risk/reward ratio isn't in Johnny's favor at all, it's a very high risk for medium (or let's say between medium and high) reward. The only usable besides the universal d2 KB is Ninja Mime where you have to land two MB Mime Time parries and the third one will KB.
I don't think he's a good character this time around at all. Let's be honest with ourselves, he should've had an overhead instead of his slow as molasses B34, you know like the last two games. It's ironic, because this MK is where he needs it most.
@SwiftEagle hear me out, you're sounding a little impatient. Your first games don't mean much. Don't think Johnny's forceballs being good make them free, nothing trades well with iceballs. Also confused why it was wrong for your opponent to FB you. It's part of the game. Johnny can do alright, but play him cause he's fun. If you're not enjoying him find a character that makes you less salty. You're gonna end up a beef jerky at this rate.
So I played a bunch of games last night and had mixed success. Overall not one of my best performances. It wasn't cage's fault I lost these matches. I was autopiloting a lot of those games as well as just not being familiar with some matchups.

Instead of getting salty about how Cage fairs in these matchups. I'm gonna sit down and lab the things that were giving me trouble, rather than jumping on the cage sucks train. Obviously there's the issues we all complain about like hitbox on forceballs for example, which actually fucked me over when I was running sets with this kitana. Morale is is that Cage isn't just helpless against the higher tiers. He just needs to work hard which I'm sure will get easier when they give him the QOL changes we've been asking for.
if you take two equally skilled players, and one uses Cage, and the other uses anybody else in the cast, Cage loses 10 times out of 10. He's poorly designed. The fact that Cage Rage was supposed to be one of Scorpion's moves, but given to Cage at the last second, further proves my point.
Everybody sucked in the first weeks of MKX. In Mk11, only Cage players suck.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
It's not the overhead. If we're trying to be honest to mk11 meta (as opposed to other chars I might mention) he doesn't need a mixup.

He needs a 9 or 11 frame mid. F4 should be the proper way.

Think Jacqui f3, Kabal b1, Cassie f4. That should get him up to speed because you will actually be afraid to just d3 spam him into oblivion.
F4 should also be -2 at least. -6 is stupid.
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
It's not the overhead. If we're trying to be honest to mk11 meta (as opposed to other chars I might mention) he doesn't need a mixup.

He needs a 9 or 11 frame mid. F4 should be the proper way.

Think Jacqui f3, Kabal b1, Cassie f4. That should get him up to speed because you will actually be afraid to just d3 spam him into oblivion.
F4 should also be -2 at least. -6 is stupid.
As you said, he's got the tools that he needs, just needs some small tweaks to his frame data. It's tough to get anything really going when, as you pointed out, the opponent can just D3 you out of pretty much anything you throw out. Coincidentally, this was the issue that I had yesterday when I stated that I felt that I couldn't get anything going, I was facing a Baraka that kept using Blood Lunge and whenever I tried to do anything back, he'd just use D3 and keep up the pressure on me without giving me any real way of doing anything.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
I searched for subzero cassie erron sonya matchups in those videos and they get vaporized by safe 50-50 subzero staggers, so now I can sleep at night at peace knowing it's not only me
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
Best I can say is lame him out with your projectile. I spend a lot of the match running away and zoning him. He's like Cage in that he has a hard time getting in, and being a big body makes it a little more difficult to jump over your enhanced projectiles.

I refuse to believe Shao is bottom tier like so many lists are putting him lol.
I’ve tried laming him out but eventually he gets in. If he happens to trade it’s 100% in his favor. The real issue is that all he has to do is block low and wait to attack. In the neutral, where Cage excels, our normals are too short. Even b3. It becomes a poke/throw match. His attacks have too much reach and priority. Lacking a solid mid is really the problem here. I guess I’ll learn to flawless block his many gaps???
 
How should they tweak our Kbs?
on top of the nut punch punish, if nut punch is used within 4 seconds or within a combo where fb cancel was used trigger krushing blow?
if you connect 2 shadow kicks in a row krushing blow? or from max distance
mime parry kb to work like luikangs and less start up frames for mime parry?
 
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