Jade General Discussion Thread

[STB Sgt Reed]

Not a reaction tool lol, but it's one of 2 things I'm not using with the character (the other being f41). It's a slow parry...only really effective when you know people are doing something.

What's wrong with F41?

Or I guess I should be asking, why don't you use it?

 

[GLoRToR]

What's wrong with F41?

Or I guess I should be asking, why don't you use it?

It's literally the worst low in the game at i16 and no reach. With that range it should be i6.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

It's literally the worst low in the game at i16 and no reach. With that range it should be i6.

F4 has tons of reach...

are y'all talking about F3?

(also what does "i#" mean?)

 

[GLoRToR]

F4 has tons of reach...

are y'all talking about F3?

My bad. Yes.

 

[haketh]

F34 is so damn annoying with how bad the range is

 

[kevkopdx]

As Johnny Cage I played a heavy zoning Jade last night for a good hour and it felt like a nightmare to get in on her. Her d2 seems pretty godlike too. Counterzoning isn’t an option for Johnny since she has that low spark and glow(which can be blown up by shadow kick at the right range, but the player can adapt). Any tips about this matchup?

 

[TCSoFresh]

I feel like my Jade is rush down in your face character that can zone. We need to get a Koth going with all Jades and try and learn from each other

 

[Eh SnOwY]

her moveset feels weird to me and i cant land any of her fancy corner stuff >.<

 

[MK9]

I love when people run to scorp after I win, I’m only throwing projectiles cause u have no counter, I don’t need to. Than they go to scorp and I don’t use them.

 

[Eh SnOwY]

I love when people run to scorp after I win, I’m only throwing projectiles cause u have no counter, I don’t need to. Than they go to scorp and I don’t use them.

i love jades low green ball projectile

 

[easy_fresh]

i love jades low green ball projectile

The fact that it has causes knockdown makes me

 

[Hot_DNA]

I HATE scorpion... I mained Kitana in MKX and he use to destroy me and now the same is happening with Jade... I don't think scorpion is that good, but its something mental for me..... As a marvel player, I rather fight against 3 vergils...... any tips?

 

[Arqwart]

As Johnny Cage I played a heavy zoning Jade last night for a good hour and it felt like a nightmare to get in on her. Her d2 seems pretty godlike too. Counterzoning isn’t an option for Johnny since she has that low spark and glow(which can be blown up by shadow kick at the right range, but the player can adapt). Any tips about this matchup?

Johnny has little he can safely advance with against Jade when you're at long range. However, matchup knowledge gives Johnny a huge advantage due to his advancing strings once he's close enough. Be patient as you close the distance on her until you can corner her. Watch the rhythm of what projectiles the Jade is using and dodge accordingly (up glaive only hits grounded opponents at basically full screen, straight glaive is duckable, low projectile can be jumped over due to Jade's long recovery frames on it). Do NOT throw out Shadow Kick unless you are specifically punishing because it's just going to lead to a full combo punish with which the Jade will likely knock you far away so you'll have to restart the advancing process. Avoid jumping in much as Jade is the queen of blowing up jumpers (1, 2, D1, D2, D4, B2, Nitro Kick, Up Glaive).

On top of the above, the following Jade moves are all completely punishable (especially since you have Shadow Kick and advancing combo starters):
-Butterfly
-Nitro Kick
-Edenian Spark (low projectile)
-F21 (long-range overheads)
-B12 (poke into long-range overhead)
-B2 (aka wiggle stick, it's also a HIGH so just duck the damn thing and blow her up)

 

[CompleteMadness]

Why can't she have decent krushing blow??? This game mechanic is hardly kmown to her and her requirements are so bad x.x

 

[Wrenchfarm]

Why can't she have decent krushing blow??? This game mechanic is hardly kmown to her and her requirements are so bad x.x

They're a hell of a lot better than they were in the beta...

 

[kevkopdx]

Johnny has little he can safely advance with against Jade when you're at long range. However, matchup knowledge gives Johnny a huge advantage due to his advancing strings once he's close enough. Be patient as you close the distance on her until you can corner her. Watch the rhythm of what projectiles the Jade is using and dodge accordingly (up glaive only hits grounded opponents at basically full screen, straight glaive is duckable, low projectile can be jumped over due to Jade's long recovery frames on it). Do NOT throw out Shadow Kick unless you are specifically punishing because it's just going to lead to a full combo punish with which the Jade will likely knock you far away so you'll have to restart the advancing process. Avoid jumping in much as Jade is the queen of blowing up jumpers (1, 2, D1, D2, D4, B2, Nitro Kick, Up Glaive).

On top of the above, the following Jade moves are all completely punishable (especially since you have Shadow Kick and advancing combo starters):
-Butterfly
-Nitro Kick
-Edenian Spark (low projectile)
-F21 (long-range overheads)
-B12 (poke into long-range overhead)
-B2 (aka wiggle stick, it's also a HIGH so just duck the damn thing and blow her up)

Wow thanks for the info! Maybe I was mistiming things but her d2 constantly blew up my advancing starter(b34). I didn’t know about her up glaive properties, I’ll have to test that out, thanks again

 

[GLoRToR]

NRS has a bad habit of allowing certain characters strong tools while letting others suffer. I do agree it's BS certain characters don't have combo while others shine. Same as X with certain ones having HTB vortex while others lose them.

I know you are a Jade main and feel the struggle more than others because you understand the faults but I feel she has very strong space control and her Normals are built for it. If she was to get adjustment it should be for zoning not midscreen damage, maybe buff purple immunity on the moves that ignore it. I'd be 100% fine with her getting more launchers if she didn't do more than 25% off them midscreen. What do you think is bad about her. I pocket Jade and main Kotal and I'm able to get her F2 out when I'm spaced correctly and only use it at the proper range. It can also be hit confirmed into second hit and cancel. Many characters have to condition to get thier strongest tools out.

I feel like Kotal has many issues up close and far away and only shines at footsie mid range the problem is everything is high and slow and his pokes to keep em away are slow and his mid range tools put him in thier face on block and pushback is deleted by crouch block so he is put in his worst distance after making reads which is his wheelhouse. What I hate the most about Kotal is he can't get sunlight out safely against characters with semi fast advancing moves and 34 is the only semi safe way to put it out. His Amped Sunlight is death anywhere on screen.

What do you think.

You'll have to excuse me for being all over the place but it's 3AM here right now.
I think they're trying to move away from allowing the too strong tools and Jade is simply the victim of a short development window.
They seem to have wanted her to rather be weaker but viable than dumb and then nerfed to dirt.

Which I appreciate.

I disagree with the very strong space control. It's only very strong until you realise that every special she has is not just negative but heavily punishable, and all you have to do is pressure her to death to make her crumble. Glow is -40, which means she can't safely activate it almost ever unless she scored a hit which means you weren't blocking and reacting correctly. Anyone who can teleport can spy it and blow her up or at least close the gap and pressure her.
Her normals are rubbish because they are all negative, and the only + she has, the last 4 of B3434, has a gigantic gap. Her only decent safe option to regain some space is 212 and it leads to nothing and is negative with some pushback. She can't follow it up with anything guaranteed, and a character like Baraka can just f44 right back in risking very little.
Literally all you have to do against Jade is block low, react to f2 and walk her into a corner. EX DF4 complicates the walking her into the corner but it's ALSO unsafe so if you block it, she's taking damage for freedom and because Shadow Kick is a high, neutral ducking against her outside of b2 range and blocking whatever she does for a full combo punish shuts down that option too.

Her wakeup options are both bad, too. The invincible is bad on hit and the launcher doesn't reach things it should.

F2 is -19 so the gap into a low cancel can be hopped which will make the upglaive whiff and straight glaive gets blown up because it's a high and horrible on whiff.

The only bad thing about her is her Risk Reward but it affects EVERYTHING about her.
She has both bad frame data with slow startups and no safety, AND low damage which means that her purpose as spacing character is compromised.

I feel like if she could launch punish for 30% and if Butterfly was safe on block she'd be fine, but I could be wrong.
Literally all her tools except for her air glaive, are underwhelming.

If I had my way,
(And do note that I know this is a horrible lot of buffs to ask for, this is more of a dream wishlist than anything I realistically know she'd ever get)

• Shadowkick would be 0 on block. Like it always was. It's a high.
• - F3 would reach like other lows do, or be much faster than it is now.
  With that range, it's next to useless as a low on a character that plays keepout.
  Nobody will buy it at i16 when all your other options get you blown up that close.
• Spark would be less stupidly unsafe but still punishable upclose.
• F2 would be 20F startup, down from 28.
• F21 would jail and the string would catch airborne opponents within its own hitbox for how unsafe it is.
• F4 would be +2 on block
• Butterfly would be -4 on block
• 43 would launch consistently for juggle damage around 25% for a full i11 punish.
• Glow would start up in 10 frames and be -18 down from -40.

But I'm not going to claim that these changes are balanced or fair or even reasonable. I'm just thinking in battle plans against her matchups in which I feel she suffers right now, and I do think that NRS knows what they're doing so I eagerly await the actual positive changes to her kit, which will hopefully make her able to punish and be a notch less easy to destroy.

 

[mercureXI]

You'll have to excuse me for being all over the place but it's 3AM here right now.
I think they're trying to move away from allowing the too strong tools and Jade is simply the victim of a short development window.
They seem to have wanted her to rather be weaker but viable than dumb and then nerfed to dirt.

Which I appreciate.

I disagree with the very strong space control. It's only very strong until you realise that every special she has is not just negative but heavily punishable, and all you have to do is pressure her to death to make her crumble. Glow is -40, which means she can't safely activate it almost ever unless she scored a hit which means you weren't blocking and reacting correctly. Anyone who can teleport can spy it and blow her up or at least close the gap and pressure her.
Her normals are rubbish because they are all negative, and the only + she has, the last 4 of B3434, has a gigantic gap. Her only decent safe option to regain some space is 212 and it leads to nothing and is negative with some pushback. She can't follow it up with anything guaranteed, and a character like Baraka can just f44 right back in risking very little.
Literally all you have to do against Jade is block low, react to f2 and walk her into a corner. EX DF4 complicates the walking her into the corner but it's ALSO unsafe so if you block it, she's taking damage for freedom and because Shadow Kick is a high, neutral ducking against her outside of b2 range and blocking whatever she does for a full combo punish shuts down that option too.

Her wakeup options are both bad, too. The invincible is bad on hit and the launcher doesn't reach things it should.

F2 is -19 so the gap into a low cancel can be hopped which will make the upglaive whiff and straight glaive gets blown up because it's a high and horrible on whiff.

The only bad thing about her is her Risk Reward but it affects EVERYTHING about her.
She has both bad frame data with slow startups and no safety, AND low damage which means that her purpose as spacing character is compromised.

I feel like if she could launch punish for 30% and if Butterfly was safe on block she'd be fine, but I could be wrong.
Literally all her tools except for her air glaive, are underwhelming.

If I had my way,
(And do note that I know this is a horrible lot of buffs to ask for, this is more of a dream wishlist than anything I realistically know she'd ever get)

• Shadowkick would be 0 on block. Like it always was. It's a high.
• - F3 would reach like other lows do, or be much faster than it is now.
  With that range, it's next to useless as a low on a character that plays keepout.
  Nobody will buy it at i16 when all your other options get you blown up that close.
• Spark would be less stupidly unsafe but still punishable upclose.
• F2 would be 20F startup, down from 28.
• F21 would jail and the string would catch airborne opponents within its own hitbox for how unsafe it is.
• F4 would be +2 on block
• Butterfly would be -4 on block
• 43 would launch consistently for juggle damage around 25% for a full i11 punish.
• Glow would start up in 10 frames and be -18 down from -40.

But I'm not going to claim that these changes are balanced or fair or even reasonable. I'm just thinking in battle plans against her matchups in which I feel she suffers right now, and I do think that NRS knows what they're doing so I eagerly await the actual positive changes to her kit, which will hopefully make her able to punish and be a notch less easy to destroy.

120% agree with all of this.

I tried using Skarlet today.

After like 1 hour, I already felt what it was like to play a character that can zone well while having decent pokes and good damage / punish.

Jade is like a way worse Skarlet.
To the point I dont see any reason to use her over Skarlet. She can even get back some life (about 7%) from her zoning tools !

I'm a character loyalist ... but not sure I can suffer yet another "MK9", maining Jade meaning nerfing myself for no real reason.

So tired of punishing teleports etc for pathetic damage, so pathetic that people dont even fear being blocked.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

I agree with most of those points. Her punish damage is way too weak and she feels needlessly unsafe for what she gets.

I wouldn't make Nitro 0 on block, I'd make it -4 or so. If it gets blocked, Jade isn't immediately punished, but definitely loses her turn. I'd make one or two of her strings 0 or slightly plus so she has a safe option that doesn't immediately lose her turn, but one that rewards hit confirming instead of always ending in Nitro since you know it's gonna be a coin flip on the next turn.

I'd be fine with making Nitro safe but keep the damage as it is (low risk low reward option) and leaving butterfly unsafe (maybe even more unsafe), but have it do more damage (either buff the move itself to be heavier hitter, or make it pop-up to extend a combo). That way you'd have access to damage at a proper risk/reward balance. End strings with Nitro for a safe low damage option, end strings with Butterfly for more damage, but eat shit if you don't hit.

F2 needs to be slightly faster to be a threat. 20 seems about right? Hard to pick a number. They can dial it in to a place where it is still seeable, but maybe not take an entire commercial break to land.

I've been saying since beta that her space control is overrated. It's good, but it is hardly dominant. Many (most) characters have tools that can contest her reach, so it's not like she completely shuts down anyone. And being so unsafe on everything means one wrong guess and her opponent is right next to her. I don't think you need to reinvent the wheel here, just shave a few frames off the recovery of her longer reaching moves so it takes more than one block to get in on her.

I really like Jade. I think she has some really good tools that just need a tiny bit of tweaking to feel right. Nothing crazy, just a little something to bring her more in line with the Skarlets and Sonyas of the roster.

 

[GLoRToR]

I agree with most of those points. Her punish damage is way too weak and she feels needlessly unsafe for what she gets.

I wouldn't make Nitro 0 on block, I'd make it -4 or so. If it gets blocked, Jade isn't immediately punished, but definitely loses her turn. I'd make one or two of her strings 0 or slightly plus so she has a safe option that doesn't immediately lose her turn, but one that rewards hit confirming instead of always ending in Nitro since you know it's gonna be a coin flip on the next turn.

I'd be fine with making Nitro safe but keep the damage as it is (low risk low reward option) and leaving butterfly unsafe (maybe even more unsafe), but have it do more damage (either buff the move itself to be heavier hitter, or make it pop-up to extend a combo). That way you'd have access to damage at a proper risk/reward balance. End strings with Nitro for a safe low damage option, end strings with Butterfly for more damage, but eat shit if you don't hit.

F2 needs to be slightly faster to be a threat. 20 seems about right? Hard to pick a number. They can dial it in to a place where it is still seeable, but maybe not take an entire commercial break to land.

I've been saying since beta that her space control is overrated. It's good, but it is hardly dominant. Many (most) characters have tools that can contest her reach, so it's not like she completely shuts down anyone. And being so unsafe on everything means one wrong guess and her opponent is right next to her. I don't think you need to reinvent the wheel here, just shave a few frames off the recovery of her longer reaching moves so it takes more than one block to get in on her.

I really like Jade. I think she has some really good tools that just need a tiny bit of tweaking to feel right. Nothing crazy, just a little something to bring her more in line with the Skarlets and Sonyas of the roster.

It was always 0 on block because it can be ducked and blown up. If we're keeping it negative it should be a mid with the mb option being overhead so that there is a risk involved for the opponent. Currently crouch blocking and reacting to f2 literally shuts this character down. There is NOTHING she can do. Her f3 as her only decent low is a t-rex limb, 124's 2 is telegraphed, cancelling into spark is suicide.
Also it seems to me like in your head somehow Nitro as a high being her "safe option" is some sort of solution.
I do not propose it to be 0 because of ending combos with it but rather that it's not a good tool, you cannot rely on it because people will start ducking it so when you DO rarely throw it out, it should at least be safe.

Nobody in their right mind would end a blockstring in a high if they can help it. All it does is send them a bit further ON HIT as the ender of a combo but it's not full screen anymore like in mk9.

Butterfly being safe on block is not an IF or a BUT, she needs that option. Making it launch on MB is an idea I've had but I think it might not be the best scenario. End-all options are never good. Ending her blockstrings in it when it already does fairly well in the chip department is perfectly fine.

F2 would be fine at i20. That's the lower end of human reaction where it can be anticipated and comfortably reacted to with accessible consistency. Sophitia's signature low kick in Soul Calibur is i20 for example, and it's perfectly seeable but if you don't watch it, it will catch you.

I've mained her since she was playable in UMK3 and her space control was always bad in the next gen. It's an excuse rather than a reason and unless her staff normals get some love she'll never truly be a compelling character.

I love this character and I want her to stop having horrible frames.
I want her to be able to punish properly and to have safe options so that she'd be competitive with the rest of the roster.

 

[THTB]

Y'all are seriously asking for a crackhead speed advancing special that side switches on EX to be 0 on block...

 

[GLoRToR]

Y'all are seriously asking for a crackhead speed advancing special that side switches on EX to be 0 on block...

There's literally no reason why it should be full combo punishable, it leads to nothing and it's a high.

 

[THTB]

There's literally no reason why it should be full combo punishable, it leads to nothing and it's a high.

It is a half-screen, advancing special that anti-airs and has a KB, and either has better corner push or side switch, depending on the variation.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

Johnny's Shadow kick is also a high and -infinity on block...

Are there any quick advancing specials for any character that are safe? I can't think of any.

On reflection I think even "safe but loses turn" is too good. Maybe they can make it a little less punishable, but it shouldn't be okay to just toss this out all day because it can be ducked.

 

[MK9]

i find it funny that people cry about jade, but when jade faces someone close with a good d1 into a safe string starting with a mid and she’s jailed(Geras, Sonya, kabal) that’s ok.