MK11 female designs are... extremely underwhelming

[SaltShaker]

If you notice Jax is no longer wearing spandex either.

And you haven’t realized it, but you equating nice muscles for the men with women showing off T&A is exactly what we’re talking about with the gender disparity. Notice a male doesn’t have to emphasize his package in order to be considered attractive in mainstream media.

You’ve actually proved my point . Thanks.

I don't think we are on the same page. I hear what you're saying, and mostly agree, but it's not what I'm saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but-

You're saying- Women shouldn't need to be displayed in a sexual or revealing manner, or needed to be propped up with certain types of attire. Males never had to deal with that. It's a good thing we are balancing it out finally and making attractive women that do not need to fit outdated columns. Women don't need to be revealing or show skin to look good, strong, or sexy, and they shouldn't have to.

I'm saying- It is hypocritical for them to make a game where the men can be fighting half naked or bare-chested in perfect sculpted fitness, looking like magazine models, as long as it fits their character (lets say Johnny and Jax true to their characters during this, or Kotal in his human-ish skin), while the women are not allowed to display their character in the same way due to the overwhelming amounts of female outfits looking either very similar or being full body (lets say Cassie's gigantic epic personality vs her multitude of full body NyQuil skins).

That is what I find problematic. It's almost like they sacrificed the creativity of the non "bizarre" women for pure safety of attire of the others. I don't really disagree with your premise, I disagree with the conclusion. It's unequal. If we are gonna argue about "realism" and "respect", then it should be both ways. There's no "realism" reason for young sexy shirtless Jax fighting like that, but it's there. Just like cool outfit and jacket Jax is there. His skins are amazing in this game. Video games are entertainment. Have you ever played DOA6, because I want my Mila DOA6 kickboxing outfit (which would look badass not at all omg T&A) on Jacqui sooo badly, yet instead I fear I'll never get an outfit like that for her due to "respecting women". I play mostly female characters, so to me that's bogus and unfair. I want them to attempt to accommodate the majority of people (like the males), not half of the people (like the females).

 

[Samsara]

Good to know who the incel gamergate new zealand shooter wannabes are in this community.

Shit like this is exactly what I'm talking about. @Eldriken an we please close this thread? We're going nowhere fast. Everyone is just attacking straw men on both sides.

 

[Temptress]

Good to know who the incel gamergate new zealand shooter wannabes are in this community.

It takes a special kind of manchild to resort to buzzword insults and suggesting that those with opposing views are aspiring terrorist/mass murderers. Seek help.

 

[SaltShaker]

Because there aren't millennia of ingrained cultural expectations that a man's worth to society is judged primarily by his appearance. But there are millennia of ingrained cultural expectations that a woman's worth to society is judged primarily by her appearance. That's the difference. Men are judged primarily on their actions. Women are judged primarily on their appearance. In most parts of the world, to this day. Sexualizing a female character fundamentally does not send the same message as sexualizing a male character does.

And if it's possible to change that, it will take a very long time, and a culture-wide effort.

I'm not at all saying that female characters aren't allowed to be sexy. In fact, to be frank, MK11 is missing a bit of sexiness. Not because it hasn't met a certain quota, but because there are sexy characters on the roster -- i.e. Cassie -- who have not been allowed to express their hotness.

I'm saying it's a lot more complicated than "just make everybody sexy." You want males and females to be treated equally, but they're not starting from an equal place, so treating them equally is nonsense. It will lead to different outcomes.

Check my response to Crim. I would only add from your post that I am not arguing more for them all to be equal. But rather, there should be options for nearly all types of players. I use Jacqui as the prime example (will likely be my secondary), as with her revamp I would say she should have military outfits, kickboxing themed outfits, unexpected unpredictable outfits, but no need to match "shirtless Jax" with "half naked Jacqui". Just more variety than what we have now for the women, by far. Go to D'Vorah and Cetrion and all of a sudden the skins look really good. That's a shame.

We went from talking about how interesting the designs were to veering off into gender politics again.

Nuke this thread, we're too far gone. We all contributed to it.

Nah chill. I am thoroughly enjoying my discussion with @CrimsonShadow as I think we're both representing good points on both sides, and he's very thorough and respectful.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I don't think we are on the same page. I hear what you're saying, and mostly agree, but it's not what I'm saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but-

You're saying- Women shouldn't need to be displayed in a sexual or revealing manner, or needed to be propped up with certain types of attire. Males never had to deal with that. It's a good thing we are balancing it out finally and making attractive women that do not need to fit outdated columns. Women don't need to be revealing or show skin to look good, strong, or sexy, and they shouldn't have to.

I'm saying- It is hypocritical for them to make a game where the men can be fighting half naked or bare-chested in perfect sculpted fitness, looking like magazine models, as long as it fits their character (lets say Johnny and Jax true to their characters during this, or Kotal in his human-ish skin), while the women are not allowed to display their character in the same way due to the overwhelming amounts of female outfits looking either very similar or being full body (lets say Cassie's gigantic epic personality vs her multitude of full body NyQuil skins).

That is what I find problematic. It's almost like they sacrificed the creativity of the non "bizarre" women for pure safety of attire of the others. I don't really disagree with your premise, I disagree with the conclusion. It's unequal. If we are gonna argue about "realism" and "respect", then it should be both ways. There's no "realism" reason for young sexy shirtless Jax fighting like that, but it's there. Just like cool outfit and jacket Jax is there. His skins are amazing in this game. Video games are entertainment. Have you ever played DOA6, because I want my Mila DOA6 kickboxing outfit (which would look badass not at all omg T&A) on Jacqui sooo badly, yet instead I fear I'll never get an outfit like that for her due to "respecting women". I play mostly female characters, so to me that's bogus and unfair. I want them to attempt to accommodate the majority of people (like the males), not half of the people (like the females).

My main point was that you’re somehow equating a character patterned after Bruce Lee to a female character wearing clothing designed specifically to emphasize her most sensitive parts. You’re in the category of people who say “skin = sexual”, which is a point I highly disagree with (thus the point about MMA, boxing, etc.

You use “half naked” to imply some kind of sexuality that doesn’t have to be there. A boxer with no shirt isn’t being sexualized just because he’s not wearing a shirt; it’s all about what the clothing is designed to do.

Whereas the female looks in most video games aren’t just “skin”; typically they’ve been specifically designed to draw attention to the sensitive parts of females (not just the skin) and sexualize them.

The point was that they are not equivalent— and that you’re proving the point that males don’t need to draw attention to their most sensitive area to be considered sexy in popular media. That’s the disparity.

 

[Jay Rupp]

You're high. She looks even better than she did in MKX.

• So does Sonya.
• So does Jacqui (definitely)
• D'vorah manages to look even better than before
• Jade looks amazing
• Kitana's face isn't busted like it was in 9/X.
• The females no longer have disproportionate (t-rex) arms
• You haven't seen 1/10th of the gear and you're already doing the qq's.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

snip

Careful with that attachment... too much TnA on display there!!!!

 

[SaltShaker]

My main point was that you’re somehow equating a character patterned after Bruce Lee to a female character wearing clothing designed specifically to emphasize her most sensitive parts. You’re in the category of people who say “skin = sexual”, which is a point I highly disagree with (thus the point about MMA, boxing, etc.

You use “half naked” to imply some kind of sexuality that doesn’t have to be there. A boxer with no shirt isn’t being sexualized just because he’s not wearing a shirt; it’s all about what the clothing is designed to do.

Whereas the female looks in most video games aren’t just “skin”; typically they’ve been specifically designed to draw attention to the sensitive parts of females (not just the skin) and sexualize them.

The point was that they are not equivalent— and that you’re proving the point that males don’t need to draw attention to their most sensitive area to be considered sexy in popular media. That’s the disparity.

I gotta hit the gym to flush out the rage of getting shafted on my early copy, but i'll rehash on the next go around.

Good talk as always bro!

 

[SaltShaker]

Careful with that attachment... too much TnA on display there!!!!

#BuffMila

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

#BuffMila

She's actually my favorite character in the game aesthetically. When I played the game for like 2 weeks (lmao) I really wanted to play her, but she was hella hard to use I thought.

Ended up using Hitomi and Tina. lol

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Anyway, getting back to the original topic — I can understand people not being a fan of astronaut skins for Cassie, etc. But I imagine they’ll make up with this with some different looks in skin packs etc. So I anticipate that it’ll balance out in the end.

I’m also guessing that they attempted to give characters story-related costumes, rather than just random ones.. So I’m guessing that after we play the story, some of these outfits might make more sense.

P.S. You know I love you @SaltShaker

 

[aj1701]

Yup lol. I thought that’s what I said but I guess not lol.

You’re right but it’s not the dressing up that makes people feel good, it’s the attention people get that makes them feel good. And sure it’s the same for dudes, when you get a fresh haircut it feels good physically but it’s the attention that makes you feel good mentally. Even if you are taken and not looking it feels good when people check you out. It’s baked into our genes and it shouldn’t be vilified imo.

Ya, I think if anyone put a lot of effort into looking their best, even to feel good, if no one notices, the result is they'd feel bad.

 

[stokedAF]

Now Shao Kahn, also shirtless all the time. No sex appeal at all...nahhh

That chick is wearing crocs, the Kahn can do better.

 

[MalevolentFix]

That chick is wearing crocs, the Kahn can do better.

Oh my God she is.... Fashion disaster... She deserves to be broken in twine

 

[stokedAF]

Oh my God she is.... Fashion disaster... She deserves to be broken in twine

 

[MKF30]

That one dude, what are you talking about the girls never had "T-Rex" arms what? MK has been properly proportionate since MK vs DC, still much better than Capcom where everyone has freaking Hobbit feet.

That chick is wearing crocs, the Kahn can do better.

What?! Don't look at her shoes! Maybe that's comfy or Kahn's preference hehe

 

[stokedAF]

That one dude, what are you talking about the girls never had "T-Rex" arms what? MK has been properly proportionate since MK vs DC, still much better than Capcom where everyone has freaking Hobbit feet.


What?! Don't look at her shoes! Maybe that's comfy or Kahn's preference hehe

With Kotal around he can’t afford to make those kinds of mistakes. Comfy is for weak pathetic fools.

 

[MKF30]

With Kotal around he can’t afford to make those kinds of mistakes. Comfy is for weak pathetic fools.

lol yeah has to maintain his tough persona haha

 

[Kitana Fan]

It takes a special kind of manchild to resort to buzzword insults and suggesting that those with opposing views are aspiring terrorist/mass murderers. Seek help.

Yeah, it's comments like that that start these arguments in the first place. The funny thing is, the anti-fanservice side often gets unnecessarily uncivil when someone complains about the lack of fanservice in the game. The pro-fanservice side tends to be more logical, even though there's still some ridiculousness coming from that side, like boycotting the whole game over this.

 

[MKF30]

Yeah, it's comments like that that start these arguments in the first place. The funny thing is, the anti-fanservice side often gets unnecessarily uncivil when someone complains about the lack of fanservice in the game. The pro-fanservice side tends to be more logical, even though there's still some ridiculousness coming from that side, like boycotting the whole game over this.

Yeah, I mean I can totally see the people who had gripes with the women protesting NRS before the fan service/nostalgic people boycotting NRS games. Most people I know who miss the old outfits are still buying the game, just not pleased. Now the other side however no doubt must have sent NRS a lot of protests with the radical change from MK 9 to MK 11.

 

[Law Hero]

Pretty much every FG has a "Bruce Lee" inspired character. But I think that's a good thing, there's an old saying.

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"-Charles Caleb Colton

On the costume gig, he has shirt off outfits(shocker) and shirts on.


Now Shao Kahn, also shirtless all the time. No sex appeal at all...nahhh

I really want that to be a future Win Pose for Shao Kahn.

 

[Hacenit]

Yeah, I mean I can totally see the people who had gripes with the women protesting NRS before the fan service/nostalgic people boycotting NRS games. Most people I know who miss the old outfits are still buying the game, just not pleased. Now the other side however no doubt must have sent NRS a lot of protests with the radical change from MK 9 to MK 11.

I honestly really doubt it.
They SAY it was a decision made out of realism. But if you remember Injustice 2, you'll remember that the women in it were covered up by WB. It wasn't even up for debate, the senior character artist even said this. Complained about missing his booty and everything.
I think the reason they said it like this before the game is released is to avoid backlash towards wb and people claiming the game was censored.

 

[MKF30]

@Law Hero Ha me too

I honestly really doubt it.
They SAY it was a decision made out of realism. But if you remember Injustice 2, you'll remember that the women in it were covered up by WB. It wasn't even up for debate, the senior character artist even said this. Complained about missing his booty and everything.
I think the reason they said it like this before the game is released is to avoid backlash towards wb and people claiming the game was censored.

I wouldn't lol. I think that guy's reasoning was BS though to be honest, a lot of people called him out on it with his "we wanted more mature looks for the women" but that makes no sense lol. Lots of guy outfits that contradict what he said regarding the women. I wouldn't say that much, remember Inj are DC characters, not NRS. Both owned by WB, but DC has a bigger say than NRS does in what they conceptualize. Look at Starfire. Her ass is sticking out and she's showing some cleavage. If that was a NRS character, she'd be covered up bigtime lol. They did tone down some like Black Canary, but they still looked comic accurate, fishnets, sexy biker outfit etc dating back over decades. Now we can't say the same about the current MK females compared to say MK9 and the 90's. They just look entirely different/redone. That is their way of saying "yeah sorry old fans, we caved to people who were offended by prior outfits on the women" lol.

 

[Hacenit]

Wanted to specify a little something too.
I don't think the new character skins for women aren't sexy. Found these two images and tbh she looks pretty good. Kitana too, some of her variations really remind me of her MKX outfit and look cool as hell.
The big issue here is turning their back on the legacy of their old games and pretty much saying "these old costumes were bad". I liked these costumes. I also liked some other costumes, like bald sub-zero, that I'd like to see return. I hope Johnny has a suit skin too.

 

[MKF30]

Ok I found the pics I was referring to lol. Just compared to MK 11's outfits(at least thus far) that I'm confident DC had a major say. I believe Derek and NRS at times even said in interviews they work with and take feedback from DC on things like this so I'm sure there were compromises.

I see what you're saying though I don't want to judge on the word "sexy" I think the word sexy, is kind of relative. Know what I mean? I'll explain. What you may find sexy may be different than what I or someone else find's sexy and vice versa. I DO like Kitana and Jades outfits(Jade mostly non hooded ones) and Skarlet's aren't bad, though I personally prefer her MK 9 look. She doesn't look bad though. I also like Cetrion, I think it's both accurate to her character, elegant while sexy personally.

Now Jacqui, Cassie, Frost I don't like at all. Cassie I like as far as character and design, but her outfits leave something to be desired. People like Jacqui more in this one, I am probably in the minority here but I actually liked her alternate in MK X much better than her looks in this game. Her storymode one isn't bad but the rest argghh. And Frost...don't get me started on her look. lol It's like is any skin showing on her, not even an arm pit? or forearm? lol. Her only skin that's showing is her head and that comes off like a transformer or something...(I know she's a cyborg but it's meh) just my opinion on that.

I too miss the oldschool outfits(and not for the oh I must see T and A) but just because they look cool and it's what defined these characters for a few decades. I agree with you on that entirely, I just feel that they shouldn't have said anything about WHY they made the change. That's what's rubbing some people the wrong way more I think honestly. But today in the GI interview with Derek, he did say when this topic came up that NRS has special surprises planned he didn't want to go into so hopefully that means some classic outfits for both the ladies as well as men.