PND Mustard's thoughts on Custom Variations in Competitive Play

So, yesterday right after the Kombat Kast, Mustard went back to the segment where Tyler mentions the feedback they received recently in regards to the statement about CV's being limited to pretty much Player Matches online.

Mustard went on to express his personal opinion on the matter, and proceeds to outline the arguments for and against the usage of the customs in tournaments, which you can see below

Agree/disagree?

 

Not everyone wants custom variation

Then NRS is not disappointing you? Not sure what else I can say here. I'm happy for you that you're getting what you want at the moment.

 

A lot of good points and I agree as well. Ultimately we want the competitive scene to grow right? And NRS has always seemed to try and make their games "easier" to play to appeal to the casual audience and did a better job than most games trying to close that gap. So this concept of driving a dividing line between casual and competitive with customizations feels like a step backwards or at least not progressive. We'll see what happens but it's nice to hear from them and get clarification.

 

The only way this set variation thing works out is if they ignore the slot system, focus on creating a cohesive character instead of simply filling a quota for 3 special moves that are good.

 

No. No one should be asking that question. You can't make a viable DOTA team from 6 support heroes, you can't make a viable Overwatch team from 6 support heroes, and you shouldn't be able to make a viable MK11 character from 3 abilities that have absolutely no synergy with each other. That's just silly.



No, it doesn't sound exactly like preset variations. First of all, because people have other considerations than JUST winning. Even pros. And even for those pros who are EXCLUSIVELY concerned with winning, their own innate skillsets might favor sub-optimal characters or variations to such a degree, that it makes those characters or variations optimal for them.

If you need hard proof, look no further than MKX. Here is Combo Breaker 2018. Here is the most up to date MKX tier list. Are Swarm Queen D'Vorah, Brood Mother D'Vorah, Tempest Kung Lao, Covert Ops Sonya, Flame Fist Liu Kang S tier? No. So why were they played? Well, because the pros prefer those characters/variations, or because the pros are actually better with those suboptimal characters/variations than with higher tier ones.

And if that all isn't enough to make the "one variation used per character" argument sound bunk...

Let's try a thought experiment:

If a game launches with only two characters with one "variation" each, and we give them both a random power level between 0.0 and 10.0, how long will it take the community to figure out which character is stronger? Chances are extremely high that the difference between them will be more than 1.0, i.e. extremely noticeable. Probably wouldn't even take a day, right?

Now let's make it 25 characters with one variation each. How long to rank them all with no mistakes? Suddenly instead of one character being 9.4 and the other character being 3.7, you have 25 characters all over the spectrum. One might be 9.6, another 9.3, another 9.1. Telling the difference between them could take weeks or even months.

Now let's make it 25 characters with 3 variations each. That's 75 unique character+variations total. One might be 9.9, another 9.8, another 9.7, another 9.6, another 9.5, another 9.4. How long to rank each variation with no mistakes? Well, we know from MKX, that in many cases it did take months for a character to "turn out" to be a lot stronger than people initially thought.

Now let's make it 25 characters with 10 abilities each, for a total of 720 possible variations each. That's 18,000 unique character+variations total. How long to rank each variation with no mistakes? One decimal isn't going to be enough to distinguish between them anymore, we're going to need two or three.

Obvious conclusion is obvious. The more options you give players, the more "good enough" possibilities you create, the longer it takes them to even figure out what the "good enough" possibilities are.

I don't understand this argument.

Why would you not want every version of every character to be viable? Isn’t that the ideal goal of every fighting game? This would eliminate the “best” versions, and allow people to be more creative and play with what they like. You’d see so much more variety in matches and it’d be way more fun to watch and play.

And then who cares about rankings? Just play who you like, in the way that suits you best.

I just can’t wrap my head around an argument against this. It’s so bizarre I don’t even know what else to say.

 

When it comes to competitive play, pre-set variations is (in my opinion) the best way to go.

Whether you're organizing an online or offline tournament (especially the latter), simplicity is best and you can't get more simple than pre-set. It might take away some uniqueness from particular players who like to equip odd combinations but I'm sure many can make due with what is given to them.

One thing that i could see being an issue with custom is the counter-pick, particularly before game one where both players have carte blanche and no one is locked into anything specific (like when they win a match).

For example: the character select screen has a drop down UI menu to select each move (as Mustard suggested) and both players are getting ready to customize their characters. Player A has a couple moves that counters Player B but Player B has access to some counter moves as well. What arrangement is made to ensure that both players are not just sitting there waiting for one another to pick something in order to choose their desired moves given the match-up?

In any other game, the simple solution is hidden select and this does work with pre-set variations because we have seen it many times in MKX. How would some form of hidden select work in a custom variation game to ensure that this scenario is not a common occurrence.

Also, if some form of hidden select was implemented and each move was tied to an icon (as Mustard suggested), players will have about two seconds before a match to decipher these icons. To further things, hidden character could possibly be another variable to add to the two second pre-match Da Vinci code.

Custom would be nice, but it just seems over complicated and tedious especially in a tournament setting where hundreds of matches being played under time constraints.

 

When it comes to competitive play, pre-set variations is (in my opinion) the best way to go.

Whether you're organizing an online or offline tournament (especially the latter), simplicity is best and you can't get more simple than pre-set. It might take away some uniqueness from particular players who like to equip odd combinations but I'm sure many can make due with what is given to them.

One thing that i could see being an issue with custom is the counter-pick, particularly before game one where both players have carte blanche and no one is locked into anything specific (like when they win a match).

For example: the character select screen has a drop down UI menu to select each move (as Mustard suggested) and both players are getting ready to customize their characters. Player A has a couple moves that counters Player B but Player B has access to some counter moves as well. What arrangement is made to ensure that both players are not just sitting there waiting for one another to pick something in order to choose their desired moves given the match-up?

In any other game, the simple solution is hidden select and this does work with pre-set variations because we have seen it many times in MKX. How would some form of hidden select work in a custom variation game to ensure that this scenario is not a common occurrence.

Also, if some form of hidden select was implemented and each move was tied to an icon (as Mustard suggested), players will have about two seconds before a match to decipher these icons. To further things, hidden character could possibly be another variable to add to the two second pre-match Da Vinci code.

Custom would be nice, but it just seems over complicated and tedious especially in a tournament setting where hundreds of matches being played under time constraints.

100% agree its way to complicated for competitive

 

When it comes to competitive play, pre-set variations is (in my opinion) the best way to go.

Whether you're organizing an online or offline tournament (especially the latter), simplicity is best and you can't get more simple than pre-set. It might take away some uniqueness from particular players who like to equip odd combinations but I'm sure many can make due with what is given to them.

One thing that i could see being an issue with custom is the counter-pick, particularly before game one where both players have carte blanche and no one is locked into anything specific (like when they win a match).

For example: the character select screen has a drop down UI menu to select each move (as Mustard suggested) and both players are getting ready to customize their characters. Player A has a couple moves that counters Player B but Player B has access to some counter moves as well. What arrangement is made to ensure that both players are not just sitting there waiting for one another to pick something in order to choose their desired moves given the match-up?

In any other game, the simple solution is hidden select and this does work with pre-set variations because we have seen it many times in MKX. How would some form of hidden select work in a custom variation game to ensure that this scenario is not a common occurrence.

Also, if some form of hidden select was implemented and each move was tied to an icon (as Mustard suggested), players will have about two seconds before a match to decipher these icons. To further things, hidden character could possibly be another variable to add to the two second pre-match Da Vinci code.

Custom would be nice, but it just seems over complicated and tedious especially in a tournament setting where hundreds of matches being played under time constraints.

The whole counter-picking argument could just as easily apply to full characters and variations.

To circumvent the whole select screen debacle, they could list them all on screen and have a button assigned to each one. I mean we have 12 buttons if you count the face buttons, shoulder buttons, and d-pad directions. Then you’d just press the buttons corresponding to the moves you want (and believe me, pros will know what they want and be super fast with it). But basically the idea I’m trying to describe is akin to picking your plays on-screen in a football game. I remember playing local 2-player, and both players would choose their plays at the same time by pressing the corresponding buttons, but the other player had no idea what they selected. So just implement something like that, and then show both players on the loading screen after everything has been finalized.

 

Why would you not want every version of every character to be viable? Isn’t that the ideal goal of every fighting game? This would eliminate the “best” versions, and allow people to be more creative and play with what they like. You’d see so much more variety in matches and it’d be way more fun to watch and play.

And then who cares about rankings? Just play who you like, in the way that suits you best.

I just can’t wrap my head around an argument against this. It’s so bizarre I don’t even know what else to say.

The reason you think my argument is so bizarre is because you completely misunderstood me.

Of course I want every conceivable variation of every character to be equally viable. The problem is that is physically impossible. There has not been a single video game in the history of video games, where every character/hero/race/whatever was both unique and perfectly balanced.

It's still a great goal to strive towards and get as close as reasonably possible. But you should be realistic in your expectations. Some moves synergize with other moves. Expecting a loadout with no synergy at all to be equally as effective as a loadout with inherent synergy, is just nonsensical.

 

The reason you think my argument is so bizarre is because you completely misunderstood me.

Of course I want every conceivable variation of every character to be equally viable. The problem is that is physically impossible. There has not been a single video game in the history of video games, where every character/hero/race/whatever was both unique and perfectly balanced.

It's still a great goal to strive towards and get as close as reasonably possible. But you should be realistic in your expectations. Some moves synergize with other moves. Expecting a loadout with no synergy at all to be equally as effective as a loadout with inherent synergy, is just nonsensical.

Perhaps I did misunderstand. My mistake

 

If anyone thinks preset variations is a good idea go play MKX and tell me how that went. If you think “NRS is gonna balance it right this time” go play injustice 2 and tell me how balanced that is.
Just give the players the choice. The community overall spoke, and the majority of us don’t want MKX 2.0

 

If anyone thinks preset variations is a good idea go play MKX and tell me how that went. If you think “NRS is gonna balance it right this time” go play injustice 2 and tell me how balanced that is.
Just give the players the choice. The community overall spoke, and the majority of us don’t want MKX 2.0

Custom variation is gonna be way worst LMAO and take to much time in tournaments

 

The whole counter-picking argument could just as easily apply to full characters and variations.

I'm aware but the main discussion point is ease of use and as seen in MKX, it is very easy to select a character / set variations and implement hidden cursor to these options.

To circumvent the whole select screen debacle, they could list them all on screen and have a button assigned to each one. I mean we have 12 buttons if you count the face buttons, shoulder buttons, and d-pad directions. Then you’d just press the buttons corresponding to the moves you want (and believe me, pros will know what they want and be super fast with it). But basically the idea I’m trying to describe is akin to picking your plays on-screen in a football game. I remember playing local 2-player, and both players would choose their plays at the same time by pressing the corresponding buttons, but the other player had no idea what they selected. So just implement something like that, and then show both players on the loading screen after everything has been finalized.

The idea you mentioned is fine and there are possibly many more ideas to allow players to choose their custom variations at the select screen (particularly hidden) but it can potentially be over complicated and time consuming.

Honestly, I'm just voicing an opinion as a player / spectator (for the past 8 years), but I'll just say that The term "NRS button checks" exist for a reason and players often forget to desync controllers. Add a whole new custom variation system (along with some form of hidden option) and things look kind of daunting.

 

Custom variation is gonna be way worst LMAO and take to much time in tournaments

Only if the UI isn't good, which as someone said even an NRS ux/ui designer said it was the least important issue of this debate.

Also I agree with Shazzy but they aren't going to ignore slot costs because if they do that then there is not going to be that much of a difference between the presets if you have a lot of special moves crammed into one. All they would be doing is switching out one move for another and call that a new variation unless they add in enough special moves to make a truly new unique variations...which is work they're probably not going to be able to do.

The longer they wait to change the format to allow customs the goofier it's going to be if the switch does happen.

 

I feel like NRS expected this to go down exactly how it did in MKX and that people would be fine with it, but when you give people the choice to make your own variations it's a cop-out to not plan to include this in ranked and tournament. I'm sure they can find a way to balance this, and just like Mustard said, even if we have set variations, there is one that will be seen as better and will be used as an 'optimal' build like in MKX.

 

When it comes to competitive play, pre-set variations is (in my opinion) the best way to go.

Whether you're organizing an online or offline tournament (especially the latter), simplicity is best and you can't get more simple than pre-set. It might take away some uniqueness from particular players who like to equip odd combinations but I'm sure many can make due with what is given to them.

One thing that i could see being an issue with custom is the counter-pick, particularly before game one where both players have carte blanche and no one is locked into anything specific (like when they win a match).

For example: the character select screen has a drop down UI menu to select each move (as Mustard suggested) and both players are getting ready to customize their characters. Player A has a couple moves that counters Player B but Player B has access to some counter moves as well. What arrangement is made to ensure that both players are not just sitting there waiting for one another to pick something in order to choose their desired moves given the match-up?

In any other game, the simple solution is hidden select and this does work with pre-set variations because we have seen it many times in MKX. How would some form of hidden select work in a custom variation game to ensure that this scenario is not a common occurrence.

Also, if some form of hidden select was implemented and each move was tied to an icon (as Mustard suggested), players will have about two seconds before a match to decipher these icons. To further things, hidden character could possibly be another variable to add to the two second pre-match Da Vinci code.

Custom would be nice, but it just seems over complicated and tedious especially in a tournament setting where hundreds of matches being played under time constraints.

https://testyourmight.com/threads/custom-variations-ui-redesign-pictures.68815/

 

I'm kinda curious as to why this is such a big deal for Ranked. Just use Player Match. The features appear to be identical other than the customization restrictions. Personally, I love the custom variation system, so that's what I'll play.

As for offline tournaments, there are logistics and time issues that need to be addressed (a select-screen ability picker would alleviate most of this issue), but TOs are free to run their tournaments in any way they like.

 

https://testyourmight.com/threads/custom-variations-ui-redesign-pictures.68815/

You did a great job with the layouts; they're all very straight forward and could easily work.

To be clear, I have nothing against custom variations; it's just a question of how effectively can it be implemented and can all variables be addressed (such as a hidden select for players who would like to avoid a first game counter-pick).

Ultimately, the tournament standard will be the one most competitive to high level players will use; I'm down for anything as long as it's effective, covers all aspects and does not lead to any major imbalances.

 

Some interesting ruminations... And I mostly agree with what Mustard says: Any apologetic excuse for disallowing customisation in tournament mode/s is just that -- and apology for NRS's effective mealy-mouthing of a function they promised, used as an excuse.

My biggest gripe, however, is not with what BnB rote spamming tournament players do, rather, it's with WHY ARE "PLAYER" MODES STILL LUMBERED WITH THE NOW DEFUNCT "SLOTS" RESTRICTIONS, WHEN THE SYSTEM HAS EFFECTIVELY BEEN RENOUNCED AS A BALANCING FAILURE AND, THEREFORE, REDUNDANT...?

All that "kasual" modes need now are for any special ability that clashes directly with another -- example: Jacqui's rockets / energy projectiles -- to be restricted for being assigned simultaneously, and the game is golden. Why gimp the much-vaunted "customisation" by, not only forcing the failed MKX "variation" model (of which the game launches with a paltry two per character -- a literal step back from MKX offerings) on tournament modes; but, for no fathomable, logical reason whatsoever, also imposing the pointless "slots" restrictions on meaningless player matches? It's another asinine back-pedal (together with the Amplifies being changed back the "Burns") that defies any rhyme or reason.

As Mustard alluded to, most of those who will buy and play MK11 and, indeed, dictate its commercial success, are NOT tournament players... And irrespective of that statistical fact, even the game's flagship e-sports promoter, SonicFox wants the "slots" mechanic for tournament use! There really is no way to reconcile NRS's cowardice here...

Either NRS drop all restrictions for player modes -- or, at VERY least, increase slot counts to six(6) (three is insulting and hardly even qualifies as "customisation", when the likes of Scorpion will equip the same move in every customised load-out to remain remotely viable) -- and use what will then be rendered an effective "free" mode, as a testing ground for what moves do what, and in what combination -- in order to facilitate the "slots" system in tournament mode/s -- or it runs the real risk of disappointing the vast majority players, and doing so on an utter sophistry of a premise (read: meme): "balance".

 

As someone who played Injustice 2 religiously since the beta (I'm a sadist)and up until a few months ago, it was disheartening that SO MANY moves were locked out from ranked/competitive. I've been a massive supporter of kustoms in ranked for many reasons but it seems that those against it are not typically willing to debate their reasoning lol. Pretty much any conversation I've had with those who are vehemently against it goes like this:

Them: "It's too hard to balance. They want ranked to be balanced."
Me: "Well, the specials are already designed with balance in mind. Hence why some cost 2 slots."
Them: "Yeah but people will just throw insert op move with see before in a varation."
Me: "Okay, well then make those particular moves share inputs. Can only use 1, similar to how some
moves are in the beta as of now."
Them: "... Well it will still take too long to choose them."
Me: "Not if they are selectable at the CSS. Look at some mock ups people have done. This same
exact thing was done in a fighting game called Chaos Code YEARS ago!"
Them: "Uh... well... uh... (burpfartbrainsynapsesnaps) People will just use the best moves. And then counter pick!"
Me: "Do they not do that with characters anyway? Did they not do this in X?"
Them: "I GUESS WE WILL JUST WAIT AND SEE THEN HUH."

And then the convo is immediately terminated lol. 2 variations at launch is HUGELY disappointing for a lot of the same reasons others have discussed here already. I'm glad they are listening to the fans and considering Kustoms though.

 

@SinkFla
Yeah... That's the typical shill mindset that one will invariably encounter whenever debating the whys and wherefores of a given product. It's either from myopic "brandboys" who will lap up literally anything that has their fawned-upon moniker festooned across it, or perhaps even paid shillbots... Who knows. The only sure fire certainty is debating them is literally banging one's head into the wall / the definition of insanity.

As for Injustice, I still play it, to this day, for shits n' giggles (while intoxicated)... And yes -- it's locked special moves (especially for player-2 in offline play) was an utterly mind-boggling design pratfall to ship the game with and then leave as is. Some of the non-default special abilities requiring not only both available slots to use, but, also nullifynig a character's vanilla special, has to be one of the most ham-fisted, ill-thought-out implementations conceivable of such a system. Why do such a thing for a mode of play that had nothing to do with the "balance" crazed e-sports / tournament crowd?... Why make everyone's time with the game suck, for the sake of the vast minority of players...??

I was always holding out hope that someone would mod or hack that game to allow any two specials to be equipped, or even all of them... somehow. Alas, no one but kids and casuals liked Injustice 2; and even they dropped it for the next shiny thing not too long after release.

It's actually why I'm worried for MK11: although MK is kind of separate from the IJ series, this time around, the similarities are far more obvious, and I'm concerned some of the problems in IJ2 -- inability to fully utilise the customisation; no customisation on player--2 side offline; too many arbitrary restrictions on what customisation is permitted and where etc. -- will carry over to MK11.

I'm hoping these things get ironed out and NRS become less anal about what they allow paying players to do with their game, as time goes on (adding more "variations" and increasing "slot" counts) -- largely based on they're claim of longer on-going support... However, with the wowser chorus so deafening at times (look what they did to the proposed Amplify inputs, in a matter of a few weeks worth of whining), it would not surprise me if the game still ends up disappointing in more respects than it satisfies...