Johnny Cage Overhaul

[Playpal]

[MENTION=2494]Dizzy[/MENTION] D1 only works so much. I believe JC has one of the best D1s in the game, but the advantage it gives is virtually nil (actually disadvantage on crouch hit). That's why I'm thinking we should start incorporating D3 into our game since it gives lots of advantage. It's 7 frames, so if you need something fast than D1 will have to do. You also can't anti-air with it, and the forward range is actually worse than D1. I've always thought JC's D3 was below average.

I don't know about you guys but I hate seeing that accidental nut punch. Yeah it AAs, but I'd rather see the moves I actually inputted. D1 into nut punch combo gives more wall carry anywho, and D1 AA just looks so sexy.

 

[Name v.5.0]

[MENTION=6796]Name v.5.0[/MENTION] I have a question: why do you dislike the way maxter and tom brady play? What is it they do that you don't recommend?

[MENTION=2387]Couch Tomato[/MENTION] I completely agree with what you just said. I occasionally use ex force balls at mid range to close distance. You're still at frame advantage anyways (if not more at a distance). I also don't use ex shadow kick as much anymore. JC is so dangerous with meter (ex nut punch and ex force balls), if a JC player can play without ex shadow kick then the opponent is in for hell. I love it when I have the opponent in the corner with full meter and they refuse to block low; F33B3 ex force balls all day for 50%. I also like to zone a bit with force balls. I don't ever expect to win but when you're up against kitanas who don't know how to iaf, it helps.

What I dont like is that there is too much F3,3 in their game. When they could get full combos, they go for F3,3, NP. Other times they have a change to start pressure and maintain it for moments longer they drop the soap and do F3,3, B3 and lose momentum. When I watch them I just feel like it's a ton of missed opportunities.

Also...with Brady, he doesnt maximize his damage. I see a lot of launchers follower by 1 dash 1 dash 44, nut punch. I'm just not impressed. Again, no offense to either of those great players.

 

[Name v.5.0]

JC's D1 is overrated. You lose all pressure with it. It stuffs attacks very well, but when the opponent catches on it almost never seems to work again. I know that sounds general, but it's hard to explain without visual aid.

Is the general consensus that F3,2 is completely useless now and that it should be discontinued?

What's that leave in the trap?

F3
F3, 3, B3
F3, 3, NP
F3, 3, EXGB
D3
1
Maybe 2,1

That sound right?

 

[Azean]

F3 2 is still a great string. Just can't cancel into NP anymore. Still a good pressure string.

 

[Dizzy]

F3, 2 is still good in the neutral game, because of how much it advances you. The nut punch removed was just a big damage nerf to situations you'd use it and hit confirm.

It only does 9% but you can throw it out without fear of having the person randomly jumping and destroying you, like with F3,3

 

[THTB]

Idk why people think f32 is useless, for the exact reasons Dizzy said. It's very good at getting him in range, still. It just doesn't lead to damage like it used to.

 

[smokey]

How does using the d1+2 nutpunch on crossups work. I know you cant use the somewhat strange input (and not documented in the move list either..) in strings or to combo, but as you only push down, theres no chance of you missing an input or even having to reverse input it.

Is this something worth looking into, im at work other wise i would be testing this, it was just a random thought though, might be revolutionary, who knows!?

 

[NariTuba]

How does using the d1+2 nutpunch on crossups work. I know you cant use the somewhat strange input (and not documented in the move list either..) in strings or to combo, but as you only push down, theres no chance of you missing an input or even having to reverse input it.

Is this something worth looking into, im at work other wise i would be testing this, it was just a random thought though, might be revolutionary, who knows!?

I landed this yesterday by accident, it was disgusting! lowers hitbox too... can you do Exnut with this input?

 

[smokey]

No i dont think you can, i dont really know why you can do this input for nutpunch as it seems to have completely different properties to the bd1 , but its ambiguous so theres no chance of missing the reversed input.

All i know is i was messing around with it alot and it cant combo off anything or even link, so its useless.

Hopefully something can come of this, more experiments are needed though before i claim this as something useful, or before i write off the d1+2 nutpunch bug.

 

[Name v.5.0]

No i dont think you can, i dont really know why you can do this input for nutpunch as it seems to have completely different properties to the bd1 , but its ambiguous so theres no chance of missing the reversed input.

All i know is i was messing around with it alot and it cant combo off anything or even link, so its useless.

Hopefully something can come of this, more experiments are needed though before i claim this as something useful, or before i write off the d1+2 nutpunch bug.

It's quite possible that because there is no directional input, you could use this as an anti crossover move. Sometimes you play those guys who just get on you and their pressure consists of jumping over you, back and forth, trying to land a jump punch. slapping D+1+2 might actually work really well. Someone test this! I would but I wont get a chance to play a offline opponent for a week or so.

 

[NariTuba]

From what i seen yeasterday it will DEFINITELY stop crossup jump punches. It needs to be tested against weird hitbox jps like Scorpion and against jumpkicks.

EDIT: another thing I would like to add to this thread. If this is old i apologize, i stumbled across it in trainning room recently and incorporated it with certain success:

if 1,3 from point blank range you are left at d4 distance. The space it creates works nicely to bait a jump in also and AA. Once they start trying to beat your d4 with d3 for example, b3 comes into play. Anyone else play around with this? nothing earth shattering for shure but it could be one more nuance...

 

[smokey]

From what i seen yeasterday it will DEFINITELY stop crossup jump punches. It needs to be tested against weird hitbox jps like Scorpion and against jumpkicks.

I will do my best to test this later tonight when im home if nobody has felt inclined to by that time. If its all legit and worth shouting about then i'll get a video or something to back it up, so give it like 6 hours or something and this should be tested out

 

[Dizzy]

I tested it a while ago, nutpunch against crossups.

I saw no situation in which this would be better than using either d1 or uppercut. The startup makes it so it will only work on very sloppy crossup attempts in which D1 would work easier, more reliably and lead to more damage.

EX nutpunch is great for stopping deep crossups though where d1 will get stuffed, but you can't do ex nut punch which the shortcut command.

 

[smokey]

Thanks for testing. I really wish there was some hidden use for the d1+2 nutpunch just to give 2 fingers to NRS for being sloppy really. A bit like cyrax's resets, just without being a dick about it

 

[Dizzy]

Characters with armor can be a pain, but armored moves that are safe on block are really a pain. They can throw it out whenever they want to get you off, and you can't do anything to bait it out and punish. Atleast a few, you can cross over if you expect it, but some like Sonya's cart wheel and Kenshi's Rising Karma are ridiculious. You literally just have to sit and block it if you expect it coming, and don't get anything in return. Especially sonyas cartwheel, if she does get it off, it's a good 30%

The amount of armor moves and prevelence of zoners makes JC a tough char to use in tournament, that is for sure

 

[PimpUigi]

Does 21B4 let you do another 21 without them jumping out???

 

[Dizzy]

Does 21B4 let you do another 21 without them jumping out???

No, on hit it seems to be neutral, or very close to it. Definitely can be jumped out of at the very least. Maybe [MENTION=7704]Playpal[/MENTION] or [MENTION=3937]Somberness[/MENTION] has checked it already.

I can tell you it is punishable by 7 move frames or faster on block, if I remember correctly.

 

[Playpal]

Dizzy's right, 21B4 is either neutral or +1. This is why I never use 21B4; I'd rather do 21 into F3 mix ups. 21B4 pretty much relinquishes pressure if the opponent knows the match up and worse yet it's punishable. If you're reading that they're blocking low, just do 21F2 into combo. If you're reading that they'll expect the overhead, go for F33 ex force ball. It's a shame 2 is a high, this mix up would be deadly if it was a mid.

So yeah, armor moves are a pain. Was playing birdsongs' sonya and she was getting me good with ex cartwheel. JC players can bait it out, sometimes it's easy to bait it out. Problem is that baiting out armor moves is a complete guessing game. And so, there are two things that are imperative to JC players: hit confirming into nut punch and going for high damage combos. F33B3 is +5 on hit, which is good. Problem is that the opponent has the chance to interrupt pressure with armor. You could do a D1 and try to force the meter drain glitch, but that's iffy since you're assuming the opponent will input the armor move on the very next frame. For a guaranteed new block string, nut punch is a must. Yeah, it's not new advice but I find F33 pretty hard to hit confirm. 21 is pretty hard to hit confirm into 21F2 as well. High damage combos is another obvious one; JC's block strings are dangerous but his combos are even more dangerous. 21F2, F3 nut punch with jip F33B3 follow up is like 31%, with the added benefit of your opponent not having any wake up options. Any string that's 0 on block and gives push back is not useless, footsies is important.

 

[Somberness]

+1.

Yeah.

 

[Playpal]

Yeah.

You should just do JC recovery data. Please?

 

[Somberness]

I am working through the cast based on the select screen so it shouldn't be too much longer, Liu Kang and Kung Lao are almost done but Kung Lao has some stuff that needs a lot of testing. I think I might just skip doing anything else but hit/block for every character just to get it done. I can go back and do anything else later.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

This is why I never use 21B4; I'd rather do 21 into F3 mix ups.

Yeah, I've always felt 21B4 to be pretty much worthless. The problem with F3 is that there's no mixup outside of F33 with meter. If you've got meter, and your opponent is familiar with JC, they're going to duck the f33 - thus making f33b3 pretty potent especially if the opponent tries to retaliate after the b3 and gets trapped in another cycle. He just isn't a mixup character and his footsies are average at best, d1 is great but d3 and d4 are very mediocre. Not to say that you shouldn't use them but they're really nothing special.

 

[Playpal]

Yeah, I've always felt 21B4 to be pretty much worthless. The problem with F3 is that there's no mixup outside of F33 with meter. If you've got meter, and your opponent is familiar with JC, they're going to duck the f33 - thus making f33b3 pretty potent especially if the opponent tries to retaliate after the b3 and gets trapped in another cycle. He just isn't a mixup character and his footsies are average at best, d1 is great but d3 and d4 are very mediocre. Not to say that you shouldn't use them but they're really nothing special.

There are plenty of mix up opportunities with F3. F3 itself is neutral, meaning you can cancel into another block string or grab. I don't know anyone who's gonna fall for F33B3. F33 ex force ball is big, because the opponent has to guess between poking out of throw/2/1 or block another F3. Standing 2 is neutral and hits crouch block, another mix up string. 21 is a mix up between overhead launcher ex force ball frame trap. In the corner it's even worse, because F33B3 ex forceball is possible, allowing for even more mix ups. You can do F33B3 into footsies or into another F3. Doing another block string is risky due to the pushback but if you're prone to going straight into footsies, doing another block string can catch the opponent off guard. You may be right that JC's footsies are average. That doesn't mean he's easy to approach. B3 is ridiculous and needs no explanation. Ex nut punch, ex force ball, shadow kick and F32 are both great tools to use to close space as well; they're all reasons as to why JC is not weak at midrange. 21F2 is also good for closing space but it takes time. If you guys didn't know, 21F2 hits opponents on delayed wake up.

And it's not just his footsies or his block strings. It's that ex nut punch as well. If you're pressuring JC you better watch for that ex nut punch because that can change the pace of the game. Think sonya's ex cartwheel, but with less damage output.

 

[evansgambit]

That's happened to me about 3 times. I felt so amazing lol.. totally christmas.

On a sidenote, it might not be worth it, but F4 dash 1 dash 21F2 dash 44~shadowkick(8 hits, 34% damage) or F4 dash 1 dash 21F2 dash 4~flipkick(7 hits, 31% damage) carry to the corner. Same with F4 dash 11 dash 11 dash 11 dash 44~shadow kick(10 hits, 30% damage).

The combo that carries the closest to the corner is F4 (three dash 11's) 44~shadowkick and the second closest is F4 dash 1 dash 21F2 dash 44~shadowkick. The latter is more worth it, if you want to carry out there because of the 4% extra damage to be honest. Easy combo to do also.

EDIT: not really saying I'd use them, and by preference wouldn't want to for a trade with nutpunch. Just something else to know.

I'm with the original poster on this one. If the wall carry combo is started within 1/3 of the distance to the corner, in such a way that Cage gets advantage from the Shadow Kick knockdown after ONE forward dash. Then you can put your opponent into a wake-up game, where if you bait out a Wake Up Attack, they lose 40+% with your four of a kind Deuces. If they get you with a non-containment Wake Up, its less damage than 40%, and your back to square one. I would think, this scenario is well in your favour.

But it's understandable why nut punch is the way to go, the extra chip damage from the follow up combo, the extra meter gain, putting your opponent into a guessing game off the jumping punch, pretty much allows you to continually stay on them - independent of the corner.

But credit to Name v5.0 for coming up new ideas, allowing us to put them to the test.

 

[Roko1985]

No, on hit it seems to be neutral, or very close to it. Definitely can be jumped out of at the very least. Maybe [MENTION=7704]Playpal[/MENTION] or [MENTION=3937]Somberness[/MENTION] has checked it already.

I can tell you it is punishable by 7 move frames or faster on block, if I remember correctly.

What if 21b4 is followed by d1 on hit into f33. Can they jump out or be poked?