Johnny Cage Overhaul

[Name v.5.0]

Ok, Cage's pressure used to be amazing. Everyone feared Cage up close. Now I feel like everyone laughs and escapes all pressure within 6 hits on block. A simple d+1 or jump or armor move and its over. Everyone seems to know what to do, and when to do it. Seems the only way to keep them locked down is by using EH-GB's over and over. This method sucks.

There has to be another way to play this character. After watching Brady, or Maxter play JC, I feel like his frame traps just have no place as the main part of his game. I would like to list some new strategies here if possible.

My additions:

1. Cage has amazing anti air ability. I think he's more dangerous at jump distance than any place else. Lately I've adapted into a turtling fighter and it has won me some matches. Since you cant use Red Kick at full screen anymore, spacing is more important than ever. Make them fear the quick dash into D+4 which till lead into #2 on my list...

2. Short burst frame traps into throws. Like I said, sustained lock down doesnt work. Everyone knows the way out of a Cage frame trap. So once you've locked them down with a JiP or a nut punch do a quick 4-8 hit string into a throw. With chip it's like getting a 20% combo everytime.

3. Pretty obvious, but always move them to the corner, just like Jax. End combos at mid screen with shadow kicks instead of always nut punching. Johnny can be an epic mother fucker in the corner. We just have to get the opponent there quickly.


I know I'm just scratching the surface here. Please help a Cager out and post some strategy that isnt the tired old frametrap BS.



Thanks.

 

[PimpUigi]

Blocked F32~Nut Punch is still good for people who are trying to beat out your frame traps.
Do 21B4 for to help keep you in.
Throwing random 11's or even sneaking a B3 in will keep the opponent from jumping out if it hits them a couple times.

Bait & Punish armored moves. Or EX cunt cracker through the ones you can.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Do F21B4 for to help keep you in.

I occasionally use F21B4 but if they block it, the recovery is pretty awful and I believe it's punishable. Still, I don't think most people are aware of it. 21F2 is neural on block I believe, though it does push JC back quite a bit.

End combos at mid screen with shadow kicks instead of always nut punching. Johnny can be an epic mother fucker in the corner. We just have to get the opponent there quickly.

See, my problem with shadow kick is the fact that it launches the opponent away from JC. Where he's prone to getting zoned to hell, and his only option besides dash blocking to get in, is EX shadow kick - which as we all know is finicky at best. I think if JC had some legitimate projectile or if shadow kick (hell, even EX shadow kick) didn't catapult the player to the opposite side of the screen, he'd have a substantially easier time.

DM...your Johnny Cage got so old and tried to learn to magic shows to make money at kids birthday parties. o:
How could this have happened?!

I've been bringing back out the slimy lizard man and been working on mr.vengeance lately, they cover most of JC's shitty MUs lol

 

[PimpUigi]

[MENTION=3472]IniquityDM[/MENTION]...your Johnny Cage got so old and tried to learn magic shows to make money at kids birthday parties. o:
How could this have happened?!

 

[Name v.5.0]

Here's a trick for baiting a jump in. Even works on seasoned players. Instead of throwing at the end of a short burst frame trap, do a F+3,3, B+3, purposefully knowing it'll push them back. I get a lot of jump ins after that block string. if they dont jump, a random shadow kick on reaction to any movement. Love that trick.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

People will only escape if you're using the wrong string/tactic at the wrong time.

You gotta know what the capabilities of each string are and apply it according to what you think the opponent is going to do. Jumping is one of the worst things do do against Cage, especially up close.

The more I play him lately the better he seems to be.

 

[Playpal]

I occasionally use F21B4 but if they block it, the recovery is pretty awful and I believe it's punishable. Still, I don't think most people are aware of it. 21F2 is neural on block I believe, though it does push JC back quite a bit.

21F2 is disadvantage. Check the post I made in the frame data thread.

JC's pressure has always been escapable. Being able to jump out and/or D1 out of pressure has been around since day 1.

Armor moves have helped out lots of characters against cage like SZ and reptile. Dash nerf certainly didn't help. Cage's pressure is still nothing to laugh at. If there's a reason why JC isn't as "fearful" as he used to be, it's likely because people have learned the match up now. The only thing JC has that's advantage on block is ex force ball. Anyone who knows the match up is gonna block low, which nullifies his ex force ball traps. I disagree that ex force ball trapping is a bad tactic; I use it all the time. I also disagree completely that you should end combos in shadow kick; nut punch gives more damage and gives better position, using shadow kick just gives you better wall carry. Not to mention you can do a cross up after a nut punch if your back is to the corner.

I've always stressed playing footsies with Cage. B3 is a ridiculously useful tool. JC has one of the best AAs in the game.

Throwing is nothing new, I see lots of JC players do it often although I don't do it often myself. I'm ok with just ending my pressure with F33B3 then going into footsies.

 

[Name v.5.0]

People will only escape if you're using the wrong string/tactic at the wrong time.

You gotta know what the capabilities of each string are and apply it according to what you think the opponent is going to do. Jumping is one of the worst things do do against Cage, especially up close.

The more I play him lately the better he seems to be.

Your point is exactly what I'm talking about. Wrong time and wrong string can happen. It's all adaptation.

I understand his strings and all, and I understand how to handle a person who tends to D+1, or a jumper. The thing of it is that you may only get a handful of chances to learn your opponent in a tournament setting. You can't always rely on the frame trap. What I'm trying to find is a way to move Johnny away from this single point of failure. He needs more strategies that dont revolve around the trap.

 

[PimpUigi]

You certainly should not be ending combos in EX Cunt Cracker...what a waste.
You need the invincibility the EX gives, or at least save for his X-ray/breakers.

 

[Playpal]

You certainly should not be ending combos in EX Cunt Cracker...what a waste.
You need the invincibility the EX gives, or at least save for his X-ray/breakers.

Yeah that was a typo on my part. Meant normal nut punch.

 

[Name v.5.0]

21F2 is disadvantage. Check the post I made in the frame data thread.

JC's pressure has always been escapable. Being able to jump out and/or D1 out of pressure has been around since day 1.

Armor moves have helped out lots of characters against cage like SZ and reptile. Dash nerf certainly didn't help. Cage's pressure is still nothing to laugh at. If there's a reason why JC isn't as "fearful" as he used to be, it's likely because people have learned the match up now. The only thing JC has that's advantage on block is ex force ball. Anyone who knows the match up is gonna block low, which nullifies his ex force ball traps. I disagree that ex force ball trapping is a bad tactic; I use it all the time. I also disagree completely that you should end combos in shadow kick; nut punch gives more damage and gives better position, using shadow kick just gives you better wall carry. Not to mention you can do a cross up after a nut punch if your back is to the corner.

I've always stressed playing footsies with Cage. B3 is a ridiculously useful tool. JC has one of the best AAs in the game.

Throwing is nothing new, I see lots of JC players do it often although I don't do it often myself. I'm ok with just ending my pressure with F33B3 then going into footsies.

Let me elaborate on the shadow kick at the end of combos. It IS to wall carry, but the big reason for for forcing them into a corner and not crossing them up ever, is so you cant get zoned as easily. Tell me one character that cant out zone Cage!

Since you may only have a hand full of confrontations with certain opponents, it's in your favor to get them there as quickly as possible.

 

[PimpUigi]

I've been bringing back out the slimy lizard man and been working on mr.vengeance lately, they cover most of JC's shitty MUs lol

Haha Mr. Vengeance!
If you start playing Mileena too you'll have the same four mains I have.

...but that doesn't mean you should change your avatar to the future version of Johnny Cage : (

 

[Playpal]

Let me elaborate on the shadow kick at the end of combos. It IS to wall carry, but the big reason for for forcing them into a corner and not crossing them up ever, is so you cant get zoned as easily. Tell me one character that cant out zone Cage!

Since you may only have a hand full of confrontations with certain opponents, it's in your favor to get them there as quickly as possible.

If you want more wall carry, just dash them towards the corner while they're in stagger state. Might not be as much as shadow kick, but I will give up the extra wall carry from shadow kick for nut punch every time. You're also underestimating the wall carry of his block strings. F3 and 21 push the opponent back a lot. If you do nut punch into throw, you're going to get the same wall carry. Also consider how far away you're putting the opponent from you; you're pretty much putting yourself at disadvantage.

If you want to watch Cage gameplay where there's little rushdown, watch Tom Brady's JC vs Blackula's jax (in the video thread i posted). It's a zoning war pretty much.

 

[Name v.5.0]

If you want more wall carry, just dash them towards the corner while they're in stagger state. Might not be as much as shadow kick, but I will give up the extra wall carry from shadow kick for nut punch every time. You're also underestimating the wall carry of his block strings. F3 and 21 push the opponent back a lot. If you do nut punch into throw, you're going to get the same wall carry. Also consider how far away you're putting the opponent from you; you're pretty much putting yourself at disadvantage.

If you want to watch Cage gameplay where there's little rushdown, watch Tom Brady's JC vs Blackula's jax (in the video thread i posted). It's a zoning war pretty much.

Let me reiterate the point of this thread. I know what works, or worked...I want to find some new ways to do things. Get all our collective tips and tricks out in the open.


NO OFFENSE BRADY AND MAXTER, your mains are very entertaining, but I hate your Cage's. It seems like a bunch of F+3,3 and missed combo opportunities. I'm not trying to put them down but from what I've seen they punish with F+3,3~nut punch instead of full combo. That just makes me feel like they dont know Cage that well. I also didnt mean you should SK at the end of every combo, only the ones that land them in the corner.

 

[PimpUigi]

Maxter punishes with 21F2 dash F3,F3~nut punch.
I like that punish too...even though B3 punish does more damage I think.

 

[Playpal]

Let me reiterate the point of this thread. I know what works, or worked...I want to find some new ways to do things. Get all our collective tips and tricks out in the open.


NO OFFENSE BRADY AND MAXTER, your mains are very entertaining, but I hate your Cage's. It seems like a bunch of F+3,3 and missed combo opportunities. I'm not trying to put them down but from what I've seen they punish with F+3,3~nut punch instead of full combo. That just makes me feel like they dont know Cage that well. I also didnt mean you should SK at the end of every combo, only the ones that land them in the corner.

You've suggested new ways of playing Johnny Cage. I'm criticizing them and giving a different analysis of them because if you don't, you may never improve as a player. I've already given my reasons as to why ending with shadow kick will never be as good as ending with nut punch. Don't take it so personally.

 

[Name v.5.0]

You've suggested new ways of playing Johnny Cage. I'm criticizing them and giving a different analysis of them because if you don't, you may never improve as a player. I've already given my reasons as to why ending with shadow kick will never be as good as ending with nut punch. Don't take it so personally.

Not taking it personally I promise

I just want to make sure it doesnt veer off into being about how JC "should" be played.

I'd love to hear some other ideas though instead of talking about mine. There's a lot of good Cage players out there. Where are you?!!?

 

[Playpal]

I used to think that to play Johnny Cage, you had to be pure rushdown using frame advantage and chip damage to win the round for you. I used to also think that once you got in, the round was over; no way the opponent's gonna get out. That's not the case though because many people have the wrong information about JC. The only string that truly gives advantage is 11F1, everything else is neutral or disadvantage. JC's fast, so it's not far fetched that he'll snuff out anything you do aside from a D1. But considering how most of the cast has armor now, JC's less of a threat. JC players really need to expand their game.

I feel learning to play footsies is important. B3 has ridiculous range; learn to utilize B3 effectively. JC's weak full screen but I feel people under rate his projectile. On most occasions you're not going to win a projectile war, but you can anti-air and hell, force balls do 8% so it is possible to win projectile wars on damage trade. Keep at mid range though, JC's hard to approach and hard to keep out. Shadow kick is another move I feel isn't utilized properly. 8 frames is pretty ridiculous and ex shadow kick hits mid. Use low pokes wisely (check poke thread that was made recently) and you should be good.

Tips I posted in the Ask JC thread. If JC's frame traps are so deadly, then that'd mean we should be using ex force balls more right? They're the only thing that give advantage on block (besides 11F1 but that's only like +1). Sweep gives advantage too i believe but i'd rather use D4. I'm ok with how I play JC. If there's a better alternative to play him then I'll gladly pick up that playstyle, but until someone finds a better way to play JC I'm gonna stick with footsies and block string mix ups.

 

[Dat Al]

I think personally that ex Nut Punch and even just naked nutpunch are two things that I will start incorporating more in to my game. I've watched mike and metallica using this like the first 2 months the game came out, but I have only recently begun to use it. I think most players, even myself play or think that JC plays in a way that is safe to the point that it becomes predictable. Throwing those nutpunches out, while risky, brings big gains not just from putting someone into a pressure situation, but also helps to mindfuck your opponents by saying you aren't going to safety dance the whole match. Looking forward to seeing if Foxy is going to come up with something cool, can always count on him for some cool shit to watch. On another note, Playpal bring up a good point with f3,3b3/21f2 on block. Sometimes doing nothing and just walking back and forth, even stance switching is the best option than just continuing pressure. I know that I myself am guilty of almost always following up a block string with f3,2, a really bad habit I need to change.

 

[leek]

Not taking it personally I promise

I just want to make sure it doesnt veer off into being about how JC "should" be played.

I'd love to hear some other ideas though instead of talking about mine. There's a lot of good Cage players out there. Where are you?!!?

To be honest I wouldn't even be able to guess what else Cage can do. He really doesn't have any sort of depth :/

I totally agree with stopping the pressure and going into a throw, though. After a few block strings, people find holes in the pressure and poke/armor out. So when you feel it's about to stop.. throw. Or even better, EX-Nutpunch. another guaranteed 18%(Ex = 13% + F33B3 6%, at the most).

I think personally that ex Nut Punch and even just naked nutpunch are two things that I will start incorporating more in to my game. I've watched mike and metallica using this like the first 2 months the game came out

lol to be honest, naked nutpunch is often a mistake unless it's wakeup.. ex on the other hand is always on purpose. Just saying, i guess.

[MENTION=7704]Playpal[/MENTION] EX-Forceballs at a bit of a distance to gain some ground sort of works, but up close it locks down so ultimately I agree. I feel we should completely get EX-shadow kick out of our minds unless it's to take a round, because other wise it just doesn't free up enough to want to use it. That way there's more meter for forceball.. another thing is at fullscreen to occasionally check with a standard forceball and on hit, go for a high ball. People tend to get jumpy after their hit with one and I've seen some success. (BTW have we played yet?)

 

[Playpal]

[MENTION=6796]Name v.5.0[/MENTION] I have a question: why do you dislike the way maxter and tom brady play? What is it they do that you don't recommend?

[MENTION=2387]Couch Tomato[/MENTION] I completely agree with what you just said. I occasionally use ex force balls at mid range to close distance. You're still at frame advantage anyways (if not more at a distance). I also don't use ex shadow kick as much anymore. JC is so dangerous with meter (ex nut punch and ex force balls), if a JC player can play without ex shadow kick then the opponent is in for hell. I love it when I have the opponent in the corner with full meter and they refuse to block low; F33B3 ex force balls all day for 50%. I also like to zone a bit with force balls. I don't ever expect to win but when you're up against kitanas who don't know how to iaf, it helps.

 

[Dat Al]

Getting a nutpunch input on a crossup after going for a d1 always feels great. Its like Christmas came early.

 

[Dizzy]

The main ways to improve now as a JC player (for me atleast) is doing F3 after a baited D1, and baiting armored moves.

After pressure there is three ways to get away from JC. Poking him out, Armoring, or simply jumping away.

I am proficient for the most part at keeping people from jumping away and converting it to a nutpunch, even some of the lowest D1 AAs. But when your opponents get used to not being able to escape by jumping out they will just try to poke you out, or even easier armor out if they have one of those moves.

As far as D1s go, there are many times I predict a D1 and yet I still go for a D1 hoping to beat them out, or beat them on the trade. I feel this isnt as great of a tactic so much since the game has evolved, especially against opponents with JC experience. If your D1 hits you gain almost nothing for this, if it is blocked or you get hit by their D1, its even worse. Anticipating their D1 when point blank and using F3 is a great way to mitigate this problem. Against characters without armor, this is usually one of their only ways of escaping aside from jumping. Most D1s are punishable by F3 if anticipated; I would say it's too hard to do this on reaction, and also requires good timing as the window for it to be an actual punish on some characters some characters is small.

The second part, baiting armored moves. This is important now, as some people love to burn meter to get out of pressure. You have to treat this much like how in other games you bait someone's dragon punch. It will beat everyone you can do, so after a string just block. This works wonders against some characters such as Reptile, as you can crouch block and if he does either D1, elbow dash, or EX slide, he was doing something that you are anticipating. (From what I could tell, Reptiles D1 is only -8 though ) Unfortunately, some character's have safe armored moves, so this tactic isn't that great against them.

 

[leek]

Getting a nutpunch input on a crossup after going for a d1 always feels great. Its like Christmas came early.

That's happened to me about 3 times. I felt so amazing lol.. totally christmas.

On a sidenote, it might not be worth it, but F4 dash 1 dash 21F2 dash 44~shadowkick(8 hits, 34% damage) or F4 dash 1 dash 21F2 dash 4~flipkick(7 hits, 31% damage) carry to the corner. Same with F4 dash 11 dash 11 dash 11 dash 44~shadow kick(10 hits, 30% damage).

The combo that carries the closest to the corner is F4 (three dash 11's) 44~shadowkick and the second closest is F4 dash 1 dash 21F2 dash 44~shadowkick. The latter is more worth it, if you want to carry out there because of the 4% extra damage to be honest. Easy combo to do also.

EDIT: not really saying I'd use them, and by preference wouldn't want to for a trade with nutpunch. Just something else to know.

 

[Dizzy]

I also must say, I disagree with any combo not ending at nut punch still, for reasons given by [MENTION=7704]Playpal[/MENTION]