Match-up Discussion Ermac Matchup chart by Metzos

[GodsLonelyman]

Well if you take it only that Ermac now can punish with a full combo Kl's spin for a 38% since its nerfed like hell and generally all his moves are extremely punishable on block. Up close as you very well said up close Ermac's best bet is indeed d1 with d3 too. Also his low hat combo pressure up close is very unsafe on block now too, correct me if i m wrong. The only thing i respect and fear from KL atm is his EX teleport.

@metzos13 Yea you're right now lao has to be very careful about the spin. His low hat on block is not at advantage anymore, I believe it is neutral, so he can't really lock you down. His 2,4 overhead is now safe on block but that is easily fuzzy guardable if you're blocking low. His overhead F2 slash is quite slow and can be poked if he tries it up close.After reading you matchup chart you convinced me to pick up Ermac again, I used to use him in the beginning. I played a few Kung Lao's (Online) so take it for what its worth, and it definitely seemed like an even match. I had a way easier time using Ermac against Lao than Freddy. I didn't have a hard time keeping him out with constant safe ranged force push checks and with D4's and D1's. Also another advantage Ermac has in this match is that he BLOWS UP Kung Laos teleport unless he burns meter and does EX so I see why you only fear Laos Ex teleport. D1~Lift - combo blows it up all the time.

All in all I truly believe your matchup list is very solid and is very close to what Ermac really is. I do believe he is massively underrated. Maybe he's not top 5 material but he's a very strong character. Another thing people seem to be neglecting about Ermac is that he forces you to block more than you should be in fear of the TK push. That gives Ermac the ability to jump at opponents more often than other chars and cross them up and pressure them with His supposed "Crap Pressure".

 

[Name v.5.0]

I want to weigh in on the Shang thing here. Shang is my main alt. I also alt Ermac. When I face an Ermac there is usually a lot of back and forth between TKP and Sould Steal. There is no advantage for either character at TKP range, just a lot of chip damage. Shang has slight advantage at full screen as it is hard to predict a ground skull, but usually when you download a player, you figure out when to teleport. That has never stopped me from baiting a teleport punch into 40% damage against Ermac. For me, the whole match is won through SS and fighting as Ermac because I can. Both seem very equal in the overall matchup and I would never see this as anything more than a 5-5.

Look at your matchup chart, Ermac seems to be at advantage over the majority of the cast. That seems a little biased.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

6:4 vs Cyrax? No way, he can trade nets with Ermac's every special move and still get full punish (which means half of our life bar, especially with meter), net is punishable by Ermac only up close, he can safely zone with bombs(+net) and Ermac can do very little about it (recovery is too small to punish with iaTP, you have to predict him throwing a bomb); he forces us to get close to him and when we're in, he stops our offense with his good downpokes.
tl;dr MU is definiteli winnable, but also I'm 100% certaint that it isn't in Ermac's favor.

I wish people would stop saying that it's a good matchup for cyrax because he can trade with the net. Anybody with a brain won't be constantly trading against cyrax knowing the net is a threat.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Cyrax can make Ermac move into spots he doesn't want to. He probably has one of the slowest teleports... which helps Cyrax not fear it. He also doesn't have to fear a push... because he should have bombs out... so even if he is caught, he will win the trade.

Plus... Cyrax has a better mind game with his command grab than Ermac does with any of his strings.

I do sort of agree that Ermac makes you block more than usual... but Ermac does have to jump to get his pressure. If i see him dash in closer that max TKP range... i'm not fearing it as much. It is punishable. Plus... offline if you jump you die... and Ermac relies on JiP's (in my opinion) to get his strings going.

 

[Metzos]

Ermac gets blown up at TKP range ... because Shang can block and then up skull then simply soul steal..... for free. Shang wins up close... as well. There is really nothing Ermac can really do in this match up except take HUGE risks.

I think Ermac Sub is 5-5. B1,2,1 pressure kills Ermac as does d4. I think Ermac keeps him out fairly well... but Ermac has to Jump in to get his "pressure" going... and Sub can bait that. Just like Ermac can bait JiP's ....

Sub_Crash.... For real.... Learn to check things before you speak next time. Shang Tsung CANT punish blocked TKP's with up skulls or down skulls. Your ignorance astonishes me some times m8... About SZ. Did you know that you can jump the 3rd hit after B121 ? And no for the final time Ermac does not have to jump to pressure SZ or anyone else. 31 and 12 will do the job just fine. Get your facts straight.

 

[Metzos]

I want to weigh in on the Shang thing here. Shang is my main alt. I also alt Ermac. When I face an Ermac there is usually a lot of back and forth between TKP and Sould Steal. There is no advantage for either character at TKP range, just a lot of chip damage. Shang has slight advantage at full screen as it is hard to predict a ground skull, but usually when you download a player, you figure out when to teleport. That has never stopped me from baiting a teleport punch into 40% damage against Ermac. For me, the whole match is won through SS and fighting as Ermac because I can. Both seem very equal in the overall matchup and I would never see this as anything more than a 5-5.

Look at your matchup chart, Ermac seems to be at advantage over the majority of the cast. That seems a little biased.

Nope sorry m8 but i dont see it. Perhaps you havent faced good Ermac players. The reason Ermac can win against the majority of the cast is simply because he has the tools to do it. Simple as that. Also all this comes from experience not theory fighting OR online fighting. Offline only. And its easy to punish ST's skulls with teleport except ground ones. TKP is safe against him, Shang on the other hand if he misses one of his skulls cause of a good jump in then more of 50% of his life is gone with only one meter. Ground skulls are the only problem here. All other can be countered accordingly.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Sub_Crash.... For real.... Learn to check things before you speak next time. Shang Tsung CANT punish blocked TKP's with up skulls or down skulls. Your ignorance astonishes me some times m8... About SZ. Did you know that you can jump the 3rd hit after B121 ? And no for the final time Ermac does not have to jump to pressure SZ or anyone else. 31 and 12 will do the job just fine. Get your facts straight.

lol... you can't jump b1,2,1 if it hits... so yeah. I want you to try to jump it... so wait... no ... you CAN jump b1,2,1... i will gladly accept the 60% damage.

I fail to see how Soul Steal and TKP are any different from each other? I think i worded it incorrectly... which I apologize for.
What I was meaning... is that if you constantly sit at TKP range... and Shang gets off an up skull... isn't there enough advantage for him to get a free soul steal, which is safe on block? Also... doesn't up skull make Ermac move off his place ... making him take bigger risks overall? I think so. And He can whiff punish TKP better than anyone I think.

You honestly take things way too personally when it comes to this character.

 

[Metzos]

lol... you can't jump b1,2,1 if it hits... so yeah. I want you to try to jump it... so wait... no ... you CAN jump b1,2,1... i will gladly accept the 60% damage.

I fail to see how Soul Steal and TKP are any different from each other? I think i worded it incorrectly... which I apologize for.
What I was meaning... is that if you constantly sit at TKP range... and Shang gets off an up skull... isn't there enough advantage for him to get a free soul steal, which is safe on block? Also... doesn't up skull make Ermac move off his place ... making him take bigger risks overall? I think so. And He can whiff punish TKP better than anyone I think.

You honestly take things way too personally when it comes to this character.

Now that you rephrased it we are cool. Cause really just read your previous post and then you ll understand my frustration about your reply. About down skull. Yeah it has +frames on block but that doesnt mean that he is winning the MU only because of that sorry. I have played alot ST matches and i havent faced such difficulties as you present them to be. As i said in a previous post this MU chart is mostly in Ermac's favor simply because he has the tools to win these matches.

About SZ now. Simply lol. The reason i said i can jump B121 is when i block B12 ofc. I thought it was that obvious thats why i didnt mention it. But you can. And SZ can be punished hard for that if that happens.

EDIT: The only safe way in which he can frame trap me with soul steal is with down skull not up skull. Up skull is too slow and can be punished.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Now that you rephrased it we are cool. Cause really just read your previous post and then you ll understand my frustration about your reply. About down skull. Yeah it has +frames on block but that doesnt mean that he is winning the MU only because of that sorry. I have played alot ST matches and i havent faced such difficulties as you present them to be. As i said in a previous post this MU chart is mostly in Ermac's favor simply because he has the tools to win these matches.

About SZ now. Simply lol. The reason i said i can jump B121 is when i block B12 ofc. I thought it was that obvious thats why i didnt mention it. But you can. And SZ can be punished hard for that if that happens.

Yeah I'm aware. I think Ermac goes even in a ton of matches... But I don't think Shang is one of them. I am going to take make a huge assumption... and say you play Ermac like Krayzie does. He displayed it at VSM... and they are archived. Its obvious that he can pressure people... but it also obvious that once you get used to seeing it (not many people play Ermac at high level, Krayzie does) that it isn't really good and he's better at creating punishable situations.

 

[Metzos]

Yeah I'm aware. I think Ermac goes even in a ton of matches... But I don't think Shang is one of them. I am going to take make a huge assumption... and say you play Ermac like Krayzie does. He displayed it at VSM... and they are archived. Its obvious that he can pressure people... but it also obvious that once you get used to seeing it (not many people play Ermac at high level, Krayzie does) that it isn't really good and he's better at creating punishable situations.

I have many matches archived here from our tournaments in Greece and also SVB 2X11. Feel free to check them out. Krayzie and I are on the same level although i play much more aggressively than he does though.

 

[Metzos]

Guys i m gonna need some help with Kenshi and Freddy Krueger MU's so if you know any good offline Kenshi and Freddy Krueger players with knowledge for the Ermac MU plz tell them to post their thoughts on this thread. Thnx in advance

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I have many matches archived here from our tournaments in Greece and also SVB 2X11. Feel free to check them out. Krayzie and I are on the same level although i play much more aggresively than he does though.

I don't think self proclamation helps your case. I can't find the tourney vids... a link would be nice. Preferably with the latest patch.
I still think you need to watch Krayzie play at VSM... to see how gimmicky Ermac's pressure is up close.

 

[Metzos]

I don't think self proclamation helps your case. I can't find the tourney vids... a link would be nice. Preferably with the latest patch.
I still think you need to watch Krayzie play at VSM... to see how gimmicky Ermac's pressure is up close.

Just go search and write either metzos13 or greeks. You ll find matches of us there, old and with the latest patch.


Anyway this thread is not about if i m on the same level with Krayzie so get back on topic. If you want to discuss this more pm me Sub_Crash..

 

[KamikazeJD]

Lmao sub crash, u got a problem wit metz or somethin? Fuckin lay off an take a chill pill. You tell me who's up close pressure isnt gimmicky bro. I have videos of myself playing an aggressive ermac with the latest patch. And the crazy thing about it is that this shit was from october, and im even more aggressive now. Alot safer in my movement. I can tell you that hos pressure isnt gimmicky, you have to respect him up close as you do from mid to fullscreen.

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=_NBJJmVNEeY

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=oGxz9OptkUY

 

[UsedForGlue]

5.5-4.5 vs Baraka
6-4 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
5-5 vs Cyrax
xxx vs Freddy Krueger
6-4 vs Jade
5.5-4.5 vs Jax
6-4 vs Johnny Cage
3-7 vs Kabal
5.5-4.5 vs Kano
xxx vs Kenshi
6-4 vs Kitana
5-5 vs Kung Lao
5-5 vs Liu Kang
6-4 vs Mileena
4-6 vs Nightwolf
4.5-5.5 vs Noob Saibot
7-3 vs Quan Chi
4-6 vs Raiden
5-5 vs Rain
4-6 vs Reptile
5.5-4.5 vs Scorpion
5-5 vs Sektor
6-4 vs Shang Tsung
6-4 vs Sheeva
6-4 vs Sindel
6-4 vs Skarlet
5-5 vs Smoke
5.5-4.5 vs Sonya Blade (?)
6-4 vs Stryker
5.5-4.5 vs Sub-Zero


Tell me what you guys think. Btw expect this post to be edited ALOT. Still dont have enough data on the DLC characters so i would appreciate some help with these MU's If you dissagree with any MU's feel free to let me know.

Hey man, because you guys have a fantastic Quan Chi player in Hidan, could you explain the 7-3 in that match up.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I don't have a problem with anyone really. I don't understand why you guys take everything I say about the character personally. It isn't anything against anyone's play style or how good they are or anything.

I only say its gimmicky because the stuff he does is all VERY punishable. 3,1 is punishable. 3,1,2 is punishable. f4 is punishable... everything after it is punishable. However he has so many different strings that cancel mid string ... he has ways around it. That is why it is gimmicky. Sure, in a best of 3 you can probably win with it. Anything beyond that, Ermac is easier to read and adjust to. To me... 3,1 is like Jax's f4,1. Once you learn to react to it... you never forget it.

Honestly, There aren't many high level Ermac's around... which leads me to believe that someone could easily win a tourney with him... just based on the fact that no one has really brought the b2 shenanigans to the table. It reminds me of Sub Zero's b2 stuff. It was hella good at first... then people caught on... and now it isn't even used. Just a gimmick.

I do feel he is under used, and needs more attention. He does damage out the whazoo on punishes... and sets up very risky situations for his opponents. I don't feel he has the advantage in many matches... because his greatest spacing tool is eventually punishable (unlike say Kitana's d1). I think some of the 6-4 you have probably skew more even. I think he beats jade 7-3. I think JC is even. Jax beats him 6-4. Kitana is at BEST even. There is NO way he beats her. Kitana punishes EVEryTHING he does.
I also think Sektor blows him up. I think he blows up Scorpion though.

I do have a major question. Does Ermac's projectile lower his hit box to go under Kabal's iaGB? Something to think about.

 

[M2Dave]

I don't have a problem with anyone really. I don't understand why you guys take everything I say about the character personally. It isn't anything against anyone's play style or how good they are or anything.

I only say its gimmicky because the stuff he does is all VERY punishable. 3,1 is punishable. 3,1,2 is punishable. f4 is punishable... everything after it is punishable. However he has so many different strings that cancel mid string ... he has ways around it. That is why it is gimmicky. Sure, in a best of 3 you can probably win with it. Anything beyond that, Ermac is easier to read and adjust to. To me... 3,1 is like Jax's f4,1. Once you learn to react to it... you never forget it.

Honestly, There aren't many high level Ermac's around... which leads me to believe that someone could easily win a tourney with him... just based on the fact that no one has really brought the b2 shenanigans to the table. It reminds me of Sub Zero's b2 stuff. It was hella good at first... then people caught on... and now it isn't even used. Just a gimmick.

I do feel he is under used, and needs more attention. He does damage out the whazoo on punishes... and sets up very risky situations for his opponents. I don't feel he has the advantage in many matches... because his greatest spacing tool is eventually punishable (unlike say Kitana's d1). I think some of the 6-4 you have probably skew more even. I think he beats jade 7-3. I think JC is even. Jax beats him 6-4. Kitana is at BEST even. There is NO way he beats her. Kitana punishes EVEryTHING he does.
I also think Sektor blows him up. I think he blows up Scorpion though.

This is one of the few posts in this thread that makes some sense. I agree that many matches that Metzos has listed as 6:4 and/or 5.5:4.5 in favor of Ermac are in fact even match ups. Ermac is ultimately a mid tier character in this game, which any Ermac match up chart ought to support.

As far as Ermac vs Freddy goes, Freddy punishes blocked TKP (b,f+1) anywhere on the screen with the appropriate spike. Ermac has to rush down, and he can do so because a lot of his strings work well on Freddy because of the large crouching hitbox. For example, Crash talks about 3,1 being a gimmick and not jailing some block crouching characters, but the string does jail Freddy. Also, the instant aerial teleport has some uses in this match up if you use use it correctly. The point is that Ermac's TKP is useless, so he has to fight up close. In my opinion, Freddy wins this match up 6:4.

 

[THTB]

Just a heads up on the post Dave quoted...Kitana d1 is punishable lol...just throwing that out there.

 

[M2Dave]

Just a heads up on the post Dave quoted...Kitana d1 is punishable lol...just throwing that out there.

True, but the vast majority of characters cannot punish d+1 at max range (unless your main character is Reptile). Besides, there's always the fan cutter follow that isn't interruptable.

The reality is that Ermac is not as good as Metzos makes him out to be. Ermac would need pushback on regular TKP and armor on EX TKP to be ascend mid tier status.

 

[SLy]

I think he beats jade 7-3.

Ermac shuts down her mid range game which is jades comfort zone but I wouldnt go so far to say 7-3 although it feels like it. Its a solid 6-4 though. 6.5-4.5 at best but it is still winnable

 

[Sirmixalot]

4-6 for reptile explain. Ermac easily zones out reptile with his forceball it interrupts the dash and the SFB and FFB. The force push easily stops the dash. If anything it should be like 5-5 please elaborate

 

[THTB]

True, but the vast majority of characters cannot punish d+1 at max range (unless your main character is Reptile). Besides, there's always the fan cutter follow that isn't interruptable.

The reality is that Ermac is not as good as Metzos makes him out to be. Ermac would need pushback on regular TKP and armor on EX TKP to be ascend mid tier status.

I don't think he exaggerates that he's good. But I do think his numbers (At least for my characters) aren't quite correct.

 

[Metzos]

Hey man, because you guys have a fantastic Quan Chi player in Hidan, could you explain the 7-3 in that match up.

After maaaany matches between me and Hidan we came to a conclusion that QC cant do anything against Ermac when in midscreen. In general QC has a very hard way breaking in Ermac's zoning area plus he cant punish TKP's at all outside of sweep range. Blocked trance can be punished from midscreen with dash to lift. Also TKP beats his skydrop, grabbing him from inside the ground if he tries to close the distance between him and Ermac.

 

[Metzos]

As far as Ermac vs Freddy goes, Freddy punishes blocked TKP (b,f+1) anywhere on the screen with the appropriate spike. Ermac has to rush down, and he can do so because a lot of his strings work well on Freddy because of the large crouching hitbox. For example, Crash talks about 3,1 being a gimmick and not jailing some block crouching characters, but the string does jail Freddy. Also, the instant aerial teleport has some uses in this match up if you use use it correctly. The point is that Ermac's TKP is useless, so he has to fight up close. In my opinion, Freddy wins this match up 6:4.

Thnx for sharing. Since you are the only one i know who plays Freddy at tournaments i m gonna take your word for it.

 

[Metzos]

IKitana punishes EVEryTHING he does.

Kitana cant punish TKP's when done in midscreen to fullscreen distance... Plz stop saying things that arent true. Also he can punish her d1 on block with lift. Hard i know but it can be done. The only way i can think of Kitana getting in on Ermac is square boost which as i said in a previous post isnt the safest way to get in.