I need some opinions from the Community

[Lun]

From that radio silence I’ll assume he’s a dude and as a woman I’ll exercise my right to say keep your male privilege in check BOOIII.

Bottom line is NRS are not SJWs and the girls look fine. Now I’ll go spend my time actually talking about the game and objectifying some pixelated bewbs.

Have fun kids

Just wanted to say that being a woman doesn't automatically make you immune to being sexist.

I've read straight guys writing compelling, accurate and striking comments about how harmful sexism is.
I've read women writing unbelievable, shallow, harmful sexist comments.

There's sexist PEOPLE and non-sexist PEOPLE, but their gender in this, surprisingly, doesn't matter.

 

[GLoRToR]

There seems to be a general confusion between sexism and sexuality and I think that needs clearing out because it poisons the discourse about sexy in games.

Sexism is discrimination by gender in situations where gender is not relevant such as jobs.

You cannot be sexist at virtual things like game characters, they are not living feeling people.

Sexualising is not wrong, it simply means you find something sexy and treat it as such. Its extent varies, and its ultimate extent is what pornography is about. Some people sexualise hands and feet for goodness' sakes. I don't know why but they just do.

What matters is to note that all people, as human beings, have dignity and a right for freedom which includes not being forced into sexual situations they do not desire being a part of.

But again, videogame characters are NOT REAL.

So when people are like "sexism in videogames" they are trippin'.

Projecting.

Same as the whole "what does it feel like to be the same gender as *insert known criminal* " it's not a thing, it's dumb.

Everyone has the right to desire to play a sexy character or a non-sexy one. Many games accomodate this already. MK11 will.

/thread

 

[Lun]

There seems to be a general confusion between sexism and sexuality and I think that needs clearing out because it poisons the discourse about sexy in games.

Sexism is discrimination by gender in situations where gender is not relevant such as jobs.

You cannot be sexist at virtual things like game characters, they are not living feeling people.

No.

You ABSOLUTELY can be sexist at virtual things like game characters.

When every female character is a hyper-sexualized lady in a bikini, while male characters can be anything from young, old, fat and even monsters..... THAT is sexist.

You're not being sexist towards the character, obviously. You're being sexist towards real people. You're sending the message that it's ok for a man to wear clothes and not be sexy, it's ok for a man to be anything, but it's not ok for a woman to be anything else than young, sexy and in skimpy attire.

I'm surprised I have to point this out. It's really obvious.

I mean.... if a videogame lets you play as a Nazist and lets you torture Jews, gays and black people, you're not going to tell me "it's not wrong, because those people aren't real". Right?

Sexualising is not wrong, it simply means you find something sexy and treat it as such. Its extent varies, and its ultimate extent is what pornography is about. Some people sexualise hands and feet for goodness' sakes. I don't know why but they just do.

Sexualization is ok (although why would it be particularly needed in a violent fighting game is beyond me).

Sexism, which is an entirely different thing, is not ok.

Everyone has the right to desire to play a sexy character or a non-sexy one. Many games accomodate this already. MK11 will.

/thread

I agree with this part.

 

[Burn2019]

No.

You ABSOLUTELY can be sexist at virtual things like game characters.

When every female character is a hyper-sexualized lady in a bikini, while male characters can be anything from young, old, fat and even monsters..... THAT is sexist.

You're not being sexist towards the character, obviously. You're being sexist towards real people. You're sending the message that it's ok for a man to wear clothes and not be sexy, it's ok for a man to be anything, but it's not ok for a woman to be anything else than young, sexy and in skimpy attire.

I'm surprised I have to point this out. It's really obvious.

I mean.... if a videogame lets you play as a Nazist and lets you torture Jews, gays and black people, you're not going to tell me "it's not wrong, because those people aren't real". Right?





Sexualization is ok (although why would it be particularly needed in a violent fighting game is beyond me).

Sexism, which is an entirely different thing, is not ok.





I agree with this part.

Absolutely, factually incorrect. A video game character is not real. It’s pure fantasy. You cannot, by definition, be “sexist” at something that is not real.

The issue here is that you are projecting. It’s unhealthy.

 

[Lun]

Absolutely, factually incorrect. A video game character is not real. It’s pure fantasy. You cannot, by definition, be “sexist” at something that is not real.

The issue here is that you are projecting. It’s unhealthy.

As I've already explained, this means it's ok to make a game in which the protagonist is a Nazist and the point of the game is to torture and murder Jews, black people, gay people, kids.

Because they're all fictional people, and if I think it's gross and horrifying and it's sending a horrible message I am "projecting".

Are you going to buy Rape Day, I assume?

 

[GLoRToR]

As I've already explained, this means it's ok to make a game in which the protagonist is a Nazist and the point of the game is to torture and murder Jews, black people, gay people, kids.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

 

[Burn2019]

As I've already explained, this means it's ok to make a game in which the protagonist is a Nazist and the point of the game is to torture and murder Jews, black people, gay people, kids.

Because they're all fictional people, and if I think it's gross and horrifying and it's sending a horrible message I am "projecting".

Are you going to buy Rape Day, I assume?

Utterly irrelevant. We are talking about “sexism towards inanimate objects that look like females.” It is ludicrous.

I’m not going to buy Rape Day, because that’s not my taste. I’m not particularly into acting out rape fantasies during consensual sex either, yet I’ve met several women who were. Do you have an issue with their desires if no one is being hurt?

 

[Lun]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

Oh, sorry.

Allow me to make a different example.

Do you think it's ok to make a videogame in which you gruesomely torture and murder 9 years old kids, because it's only a videogame and those kids don't exist?

 

[KidVanDal]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

Ok let's put it this way then.

As I've already explained, this means it's ok to make a game in which the protagonist is a PERSON and the point of the game is to torture and murder Jews, black people, gay people, kids.

Does that make it any better?
I don't think the Nazi part is necessary for arguments sake.

 

[Lun]

Utterly irrelevant. We are talking about “sexism towards inanimate objects that look like females.” It is ludicrous.

So.... what part did you miss when I explained the sexism is not towards the characters, but towards the people who play it?

Shall I quote myself?

Ok.

When every female character is a hyper-sexualized lady in a bikini, while male characters can be anything from young, old, fat and even monsters..... THAT is sexist.

You're not being sexist towards the character, obviously. You're being sexist towards real people. You're sending the message that it's ok for a man to wear clothes and not be sexy, it's ok for a man to be anything, but it's not ok for a woman to be anything else than young, sexy and in skimpy attire.

.....Oh, and I don't want to confuse you, but I -am- into S/M and rape fantasies, and I think Rape Day is gross and disturbed.
Because there's a huge difference between rape fantasy (they're so popular among women that 50 Shades Of Gray is popular), and something that glorifies REAL rape.
It's the same difference between the harmless gore of Mortal Kombat, compared to something that glorifies real violence.

 

[Burn2019]

Oh, sorry.

Allow me to make a different example.

Do you think it's ok to make a videogame in which you gruesomely torture and murder 9 years old kids, because it's only a videogame and those kids don't exist?

You’re widening the goalposts to include illegality now? Is that not the sign of an inherently weak argument?

I personally do not agree with games where the player is an unrepentant criminal committing what society has judged the most heinous of crimes. I’m not even interested in Grand Theft Auto, so I don’t know if the narrative rewards or eventually punishes said behaviour / character.

And there is still no relevance to “bring sexist towards a fictional appearance on a fictional character.” None whatsoever. Again, by definition, it’s impossible.

 

[Burn2019]

“You ABSOLUTELY can be sexist at virtual things like game characters”

There, I quoted you instead.

 

[Lun]

You’re widening the goalposts to include illegality now? Is that not the sign of an inherently weak argument?

Hey, who said it's illegal?

It's fictional kids. They're not real. So you can torture and slowly murder them.

It's the exact point you have been making. You said you can't be sexist towards fictional women, so why can you be violent towards fictional kids?

And there is still no relevance to “bring sexist towards a fictional appearance on a fictional character.” None whatsoever. Again, by definition, it’s impossible.

So, by definition, it's impossible to find anything offensive or wrong in a videogame in which you're allowed to detailedly torture children.

 

[GLoRToR]

So.... what part did you miss when I explained the sexism is not towards the characters, but towards the people who play it?

Shall I quote myself?

Ok.

When every female character is a hyper-sexualized lady in a bikini, while male characters can be anything from young, old, fat and even monsters..... THAT is sexist.

You're not being sexist towards the character, obviously. You're being sexist towards real people. You're sending the message that it's ok for a man to wear clothes and not be sexy, it's ok for a man to be anything, but it's not ok for a woman to be anything else than young, sexy and in skimpy attire.

.....Oh, and I don't want to confuse you, but I -am- into S/M and rape fantasies, and I think Rape Day is gross and disturbed.
Because there's a huge difference between rape fantasy (they're so popular among women that 50 Shades Of Gray is popular), and something that glorifies REAL rape.
It's the same difference between the harmless gore of Mortal Kombat, compared to something that glorifies real violence.

So what part did you miss when I said that everyone has the right to dress their characters the way they want?

Ok let's put it this way then.

As I've already explained, this means it's ok to make a game in which the protagonist is a PERSON and the point of the game is to torture and murder Jews, black people, gay people, kids.

Does that make it any better?
I don't think the Nazi part is necessary for arguments sake.

It's still the same fallacy where you likened a topic to another commonly disliked one based on appeal, just not so intricately on the nose.

Still, I find it mildly intriguing from a professional standpoint that you equate sexual desire with sadism and vandalism.
Don't take this a personal attack, it is not. It's just interesting how people argue from a personal standpoint when they feel morally invested in a topic.

Factually speaking though, dressing up a male character in a flower dress to fulfil one's desire for any quality of transsexual expression is by far not the same as humiliating, maiming or torturing the same character any more than telling a woman she is attractive is rape whether she likes you or not.

I understand that some people sexualise displays of violence and that some people are offended by innocent compliments but the important part of that narrative is "some people".

Some people also prefer to dress their commandos in bikini, even if they are male - and I see nothing wrong with it.

@Vslayer will also be intrigued by this discourse.

 

[Lun]

So what part did you miss when I said that everyone has the right to dress their characters the way they want?

According to this logic, people also have the right to make a videogame about torturing kids. Those kids are their own fictional characters, so they can abuse them as they like, right?

Still, I find it mildly intriguing from a professional standpoint that you equate sexual desire with sadism and vandalism.

Yeah, I totally do that.

When I see every female character frolicking in a bikini with bouncing boobs and high heels and poledancing poses; and next to that I see male characters who wear clothes and can look old or fat or anything and don't strike up sexy poses......... my complaint is that I equate sexual desire with sadism and vandalism.

When I make a comparison with child abuse or with racism just to make you understand how it's not like anything should be allowed without judgement because fictional works also show a stance on reality..... it's totally because I equate sexual desire with sadism and vandalism.

You absolutely got me there.

 

[GLoRToR]

Hey, who said it's illegal?

It's fictional kids. They're not real. So you can torture and slowly murder them.

It's the exact point you have been making. You said you can't be sexist towards fictional women, so why can you be violent towards fictional kids?



So, by definition, it's impossible to find anything offensive or wrong in a videogame in which you're allowed to detailedly torture children.

Appeal to morale fallacy at its best. Watch an anime called Genocyber if you want to be outraged, kind sir.

While you do, I'll be over here reminding you that comparing sexy videogame characters to violent crimes on minors is a comparison borne of psychological queries I'd rather not issue in public.

The merit of your argument is equal to "so you like ham on pizza, I bet you like rape too".

 

[Lun]

Appeal to morale fallacy at its best. Watch an anime called Genocyber if you want to be outraged, kind sir.

I stopped watching anime more than ten years ago, thanks.

While you do, I'll be over here reminding you that comparing sexy videogame characters to violent crimes on minors is a comparison borne of psychological queries I'd rather not issue in public.

I tried to make you understand things with an example of something that's far more easy to understand why it's wrong. And you completely missed the point.

So, let me try to approach this differently.

As I ALREADY EXPLAINED, when a videogame presents every woman as a hot supersexy bikini babe but men have a variety of clothes and visual appearances, it's presenting every woman as a sex object but it's NOT presenting every men as a sex object. And that is sexism, my dear.

 

[KidVanDal]

So what part did you miss when I said that everyone has the right to dress their characters the way they want?


It's still the same fallacy where you likened a topic to another commonly disliked one based on appeal, just not so intricately on the nose.

Still, I find it mildly intriguing from a professional standpoint that you equate sexual desire with sadism and vandalism.
Don't take this a personal attack, it is not. It's just interesting how people argue from a personal standpoint when they feel morally invested in a topic.

Factually speaking though, dressing up a male character in a flower dress to fulfil one's desire for any quality of transsexual expression is by far not the same as humiliating, maiming or torturing the same character any more than telling a woman she is attractive is rape whether she likes you or not.

I understand that some people sexualise displays of violence and that some people are offended by innocent compliments but the important part of that narrative is "some people".

Some people also prefer to dress their commandos in bikini, even if they are male - and I see nothing wrong with it.

@Vslayer will also be intrigued by this discourse.

I think there's been a miscomunication here.
The reason @Lun made the comparison was because people are saying you can't be sexist towards viritual characters.

She then said that if that's correct then wouldn't it also be OK to make a game which is wildely racist and homophobic? In the example said games main theme is torture of gays, black people, jewish people and children.

I get where you're coming from but just because the characters in the game can't feel doesn't mean that people playing the game can't.
I for one wouldn't feel comfortable playing a game where you torture people solely based on their race or religion.

 

[Lun]

Ok, so, I found an image that clears up my stance on things.

Hopefully this clears up any misunderstanding.

For reference, MK9 unfortunately belonged to the first category here. MK11 doesn't.

 

[GLoRToR]

As I ALREADY EXPLAINED, when a videogame presents every woman as a hot supersexy bikini babe but men have a variety of clothes and visual appearances, it's presenting every woman as a sex object but it's NOT presenting every men as a sex object. And that is sexism, my dear.

You seem to be mixing together several topics to create this cognitive bias.

when a videogame presents every woman as a hot supersexy bikini babe

That game is likely centred around that topic and was intended for an audience with that interest. Are you trying to shame a group of people simply because they like to look at women in bikinis? They would rather do it in a game than in real life because staring at a person whether they are wearing any specific clothing or not, is easily considered rude or even offensive. In Asian countries, people tend to look once in the eyes and then glance more towards the speaker's shoulder or even past their heads not to seem aggressive.

but men have a variety of clothes and visual appearances,

In my personal experience, sadly without any statistical evidence to back it up currently, female characters tend to have the wider variety of outfits in games so much as women in real life have a vastly more varied wardrobe than men. This excludes Scorpion in MKX of course

it's presenting every woman as a sex object

As I explained above, people treat videogame characters as objects. Objects of their desires which is not always sexual but often a form of self-expression, objects of their hate in the case of villains, objects or objectives of goals in the case of NPCS.
This does not reflect on people's general approach to other human beings in real life unless they are mentally ill and/or handicapped to think so.

but it's NOT presenting every men as a sex object.

Fangirls and fanboys of Leon from RE who sexualise him beg to differ. Because homosexual audiences also appreciate sexuality and you can look up how James Bond himself has a more sexually charged following of women and gay men than heterosexual men and he's a womanising moron.

What appeals to people is generally hit or miss.

Context matters.

In context, fighting game women are battling it out and do it in whatever clothing the user may decide to equip on them.

And that is sexism

Sexism is the discrimination of an individual based on gender.
I have yet to see evidence of men or women being handicapped in any way based on their gender in videogames.

If anything, the protagonist of the recent Call of Cthulhu game has gotten kicked in the balls by a crimeboss woman so hard he failed the mission and took him a while to wake up, I feel that's more sexist than putting him in a bikini or an apron.

my dear.

Let's not get personal now.
I'm not your deer, you're the one in my headlights it seems.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

For those unaware, the term "Get woke, go broke" is the very easily debunked theory that states political correctness will lead to financial loss of a marketed property.

It was first coined in 2018 by John Ringo in an artical published by Dangerous.com, an alt-right clickbait website run by Milo Yiannopoulos.

Milo Yiannopoulos is a former writer for Breitbart, an advocate for pedophilia, and he has also associated himself with neo-Nazis.

 

[GLoRToR]

I think there's been a miscomunication here.
The reason @Lun made the comparison was because people are saying you can't be sexist towards viritual characters.

She then said that if that's correct then wouldn't it also be OK to make a game which is wildely racist and homophobic? In the example said games main theme is torture of gays, black people, jewish people and children.

I get where you're coming from but just because the characters in the game can't feel doesn't mean that people playing the game can't.
I for one wouldn't feel comfortable playing a game where you torture people solely based on their race or religion.

I feel that the miscommunication stems from the blurring of lines and some wrong definitions across the board. I urge you to read my previous post but I'll address yours too in brief to clear up a few of these issues as best as I can.

1. The definition of sexism
Discrimination based on one's sex.
It's sexist to tell a woman that she can't work at a construction.
It's sexist to tell a man that he can't work as a nurse.
It's not sexism that women rarely work at constructions.
It's sexism that there are jobs which women will not take such as working at constructions because they say it's jobs for men.
It's sexist that burly women will act like they can't haul 10 lbs of weight and ask a physically weaker dude to do it just because "you're the man".
It's sexist that women are discriminated in the job market in my region, still applying chauvinistic values in traces even though the communist bygone era has been gone and done for decades. My mother couldn't get a decent job for nearly a decade.
It's not sexist to have the option to dress characters sexy in videogames. It's not sexist to dress sexy in real life. Sexy is not sexist, sexist is not sexy.

2. Hatecrime vs Sexy
I can't begin to imagine that someone would feel the same about a woman or man wearing an outfit any revealing or even being naked, as about any form of hatecrime. It's unintelligible for my civilised European mind that there is someone so callous that the slaughter of aunt Gertrude and uncle Kolos in Auschwitz would be likened to some pixel bitch waving her tits around.
I'm trying to not take a moral higher ground but it's hard to do when some fuck online would liken bikini women to a legacy of hatred and suffering that my own grandparents can vividly recall and talk about quite often, too.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

This is beyond stupid at this point.

 

[MioTenacious]

Uhhh, what?

Sorry my english are terrible didn't mean to say that, i wanted to say it would be cool to see more teasing in the nudity of the game xd

 

[Burn2019]

Hey, who said it's illegal?

It's fictional kids. They're not real. So you can torture and slowly murder them.

It's the exact point you have been making. You said you can't be sexist towards fictional women, so why can you be violent towards fictional kids?



So, by definition, it's impossible to find anything offensive or wrong in a videogame in which you're allowed to detailedly torture children.

I’m suspecting you’re deliberately missing the point. In real life, wearing revealing, skimpy costumes is not illegal. Murdering children is illegal. Hence “you’re widening the goalposts to include illegality now.” You’re attempting a false parallel.
If such a game as “Toddler Timmy murder simulator 2019” existed, playing it would not automatically make you violent towards children either.

By YOUR OWN WORDS, you’re saying you can be sexist towards a video game character; you simply can’t. By definition it’s impossible.