Auto-Building Meter - A Step Backwards?

[Jhonnykiller45]

I don't think the meter changes really have anything to do with casuals/casual play. Casuals don't even understand how to build meter and always end up spending it on X-Rays anyhow.

 

[Fatal1ty_93_RUS]

The auto regeneration for Defensive meter is fine, it's just a matter of speed and its actual application (e.g. It doesn't drain for perfect blocks)

Offensive meter regeneration should go, however. You're literally getting Free EX moves for doing nothing, and that's just bad design, even if they slow the regen down. It removes the element of resource management, something that should be essential for a competitive fighter as it introduces an element of strategy and unexpected situations for the opponent.
If NRS wants you to have offensive meter up that often - at least make it full up just by movement like in Guilty Gear, or whiffing normals like in various other games, or freeze the regen if you're not moving/blocking/turtling

Also while we're on topic of regeneration - I would also advocate against the cooldown on the Fatal Blow if you miss it or it's blocked. It's bad already you can get free EX moves, but getting a free Super on top of it being a blatant comeback mechanic? That's even worse IMO

I hope they seriously consider feedback that will keep raining down over the course of next few months and make changes based on the beta as well, because the rest of the gameplay changes are absolutely okay with me, especially the run removal

 

[MagicMan357]

This is legit the most logical balanced fighting mechanic ive seen period and i mean this seriously.

This eliminates ALL and i mean ALL excuses regardless of match-ups because now someone like Tombrady who may not have an ice clone, can still be thankful that liu kang wont ass rape with instant fire balls and build xray in .5 seconds while he has nothing. I myself always play more offensive but this gives all play styles the ability to viable with every character.

Even doing simple extended combos may cost you that match in the long run because you got to remember that there may be no more breakers, but with universal defense on knockdown for meter can give you a combo.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

MK11 seems to be taking notes on mechanics from other successful fighters into their own game.

!POP QUIZ!

What other game has this mechanic and is wildly successful ?Question mark?

*Drum Roll*

 

[Fatal1ty_93_RUS]

MK11 seems to be taking notes on mechanics from other successful fighters into their own game.

!POP QUIZ!

What other game has this mechanic and is wildly successful ?Question mark?

*Drum Roll*

DBFZ doesn't build meter automatically

 

[JBeezYBabY]

DBFZ doesn't build meter automatically

But it builds meter by walking. Looks like NRS wanted to implement the same way but in a different fashion. Thats why walking is the main form of movement with no running.

 

[Fatal1ty_93_RUS]

But it builds meter by walking. Looks like NRS wanted to implement the same way but in a different fashion. Thats why walking is the main form of movement with no running.

Makes sense, but then like I said - I'd rather them remove autogeneration period and just give it to you by advancing forward since it's an Offensive meter. Kinda silly how it's still regenerates even if you stand still

 

[JBeezYBabY]

Makes sense, but then like I said - I'd rather them remove autogeneration period and just give it to you by advancing forward since it's an Offensive meter. Kinda silly how it's still regenerates even if you stand still

Yeah....I feel you on that. Adjustments can always be made but the game isnt even out yet for us to determine if its a problem or not. All we can do is wait until the beta at the end of March. Best believe Uncle JBeezY will be all over that shit

 

[villainous monk]

I think this is really a great mechanic. It not only puts the player, match and characters on an even playing field but it also complements the rest of the new mechanics.

You shouldn't necessarily be pushing buttons on offense gaining meter on hit or block and gives those on defense a chance to counter. It really does put the match in kinda a neutral state all the time since your also wery of the opponents meter.

I am aware how similar it is in other games but we've also had this in MK also when it came to stamina. From mk3 till now this use of regenerative meter gain should work well with the systems in place.

i always wished everyone had a quick taunt move to build a tiny bit of meter

I was thinking Shao Kahn might be the exception because you could always taunt with him in other games. Will he have a benefit to gain meter or health back or faster remains to be seen but if Baraka gets a supposed buff when he plants the flag I suppose Shao Kahn will have something similar.

I hope.

 

[DDustiNN]

I think it’s great. Injustice 2 started off pretty awful, when you’d get pinned full-screen by a Deadshot who rapidly gained meter for every spammed shot and chipped you to death, while you barely got enough to do a MB roll to get out before dying.

 

[B. Shazzy]

You guys going on about zoner’s or blockstring meter build.... you realize they could just solve this issue by balancing these moves properly right ya? It’s not a good talking point

Auto meter gain is some scrub quotes tier mechanic

 

[Zaccel]

I touched on this in another thread, but I'm very excited for the possibilities with the Att/Def meters, for a few reasons:

1.) Removes centralization in the cast's meter-building skills (as stated elsewhere in this thread, instant-air fireballs and long pressure created wide gulfs in bad matchups).

2.) Encourages more diverse styles of play by divorcing the value of aggression and prices of defense from one another (meaning more varied gameplay among characters and players alike). Combined with the lack of Run, it means less wild rushdown across the cast and a less homogeneous feeling.

3.) Smartly conjoins certain actions to intuitively make powerful actions rare and costly (the wakeup roll/attack that costs 1Att/1Def is going to be a very measured choice because simply attempting it isn't guaranteed--and using it may make mounting comebacks harder since you've left yourself with fewer resources if you return to neutral. You could save on the Att and just roll but that introduces further risks).

4.) Speaking of measured choices, time as a method of balance has been gaining traction. Say what you will about MOBA cooldowns, but Rising Thunder took a look at them and demonstrated that it vastly reduces balancing complications. You don't have to weigh character strings, safe specials, projectiles in neutral, and so forth to carefully balance how a character uses meter--it's all balanced around a universalized timer. Given NRS' difficulties with patching, this may be the "out" they need to do their best possible job.

EDIT: the 3D era also did this (sort of), so it's in one sense a throwback to that, as well.

5.) The story's about time travel. "Time" as the meter's resource is totally natural.

 

[mastermalone]

i think mk11 has many interesting new mechanics, but the new meter-building seems like a questionable one to me.

im fine with having one offensive and one defensive bar. the usages seem to be well-thought in mk11 (like off. meter for juggles and def. meter for wakeups).

the crucial question is the way you build the meter:

i always thought meter building went the wrong way in mk: gain by hitting on block and getting hit. basically meter build was a reward for playing badly. i'm glad thats gone.

BUT: is auto-refill over time really something that makes meter-building better on every level of play or is it just a casual friendly-measure?

i would have prefered to gain meter for successful offensive (hit) or defensive (block) moves.

for now i cant really see the benefits of auto-load meter vs meter as reward for certain action. it looks like it would take an important tactical aspect of the game away. surely new tactics are gonna be build around the new mechanics, like extra-long juggles or turtling, but i dont feel they can get as deep as the alternative.

thoughts?

Remember Kabal in MK9? Instant air Gas Blasts meant that he could pin you down while gaining insane amounts of meter. You would gain some meter for blocking but not as much as Kabal did. He was then free to close in on you with an EX spin and punish you for any attempt to counter.

Some characters like that had unfair advantages in meter building vs others. This auto fill method levels the playing field better since both players build meter at the same rate.

At first I did not like it but the more I think about it, the more it grows on me.

 

[B. Shazzy]

Or crazy idea here guise. What if they just balanced moves meter build properly?

woah

 

[Zaccel]

Or crazy idea here guise. What if they just balanced moves meter build properly?

woah

In a perfect world that's obviously the best solution. But NRS is working from behind in that respect, and balancing an attack in some games (like MKX) requires a difficult dance between the damage an Attack does or a wholesale shift in the meter-building formula itself.
I think you're overestimating how easily this is done, but more importantly I think NRS should be trying to play to its strengths--achieving the ideal is hard enough for developers with years more experience.

 

[B. Shazzy]

In a perfect world that's obviously the best solution. But NRS is working from behind in that respect, and balancing an attack in some games (like MKX) requires a difficult dance between the damage an Attack does or a wholesale shift in the meter-building formula itself.
I think you're overestimating how easily this is done, but more importantly I think NRS should be trying to play to its strengths--achieving the ideal is hard enough for developers with years more experience.

It’s really not that hard. For example, we can solve Kabal’s instant air gas blast meter build issue right now.

“Kabal’s instant air gas blast meter build om whiff is reduced”
“Meter gain increased for blockimg projectiles”

Done. Believe it or not these are concepts already realized in competitive fighting games that happen to not die after their first year.

 

[kevkopdx]

It rewards walking backwards and turtling... is that really a good thing?

 

[Zaccel]

It rewards walking backwards and turtling... is that really a good thing?

Why not? I'd say it's better than strictly encouraging offense.

 

[kabelfritz]

It rewards walking backwards and turtling... is that really a good thing?

im imagining tournament moments where players go ham at each other and then in mutual agreement retract to their corners when the meter is empty

 

[MagicMan357]

It’s really not that hard. For example, we can solve Kabal’s instant air gas blast meter build issue right now.

“Kabal’s instant air gas blast meter build om whiff is reduced”
“Meter gain increased for blockimg projectiles”

Done. Believe it or not these are concepts already realized in competitive fighting games that happen to not die after their first year.

Nope, there is no way to spin it. This is the most balanced approach.

 

[MadPropz101]

I just think that meter should fill up slower.

 

[Zaccel]

Nope, there is no way to spin it. This is the most balanced approach.

I do think that a detailed, move-by-move balancing approach would be more "perfectly" balanced. But the timers are a very achievable form of balance, especially given it's NRS we're talking about. Their track record with this hasn't been good, but MKXL turned out well in the end and this system should help them achieve their particular best.

 

[B. Shazzy]

Nope, there is no way to spin it. This is the most balanced approach.

How is a hardline stance that doesnt consider any context balanced

 

[MagicMan357]

S

I do think that a detailed, move-by-move balancing approach would be more "perfectly" balanced. But the timers are a very achievable form of balance, especially given it's NRS we're talking about. Their track record with this hasn't been good, but MKXL turned out well in the end and this system should help them achieve their particular best.

See this mentality is exactly what MK11 is going to expose. People are talking about what could be instead of what is. The facts are that this approach gives NO excuses not to execute on any playstyle possible. The same people saying there should be no offensive meter seem to forget that executing a 2 bar combo all the time can actually backfire. Once again, this all depends on the move but on knockdown i can u2 you into a bar combo and now i have 1 of each. This meta alone changes how to manage resources with not only the character but the variations. Once again different moves use different meter.

 

[MagicMan357]

How is a hardline stance that doesnt consider any context balanced

Because the context is sematics for an excuse to cry for no reason. Im still waiting on how wasting 2 bars on combo off the bat is broken.