Everyone saying Blue Beetle is trash, but...

[PetulantWaste]

But why though? I feel like the only real benefit you get is a longer range b2. You get more f2 range but now you don't have shiel bash and you're unsafe. Plus most of the strings in trait won't fully land on block or hit unless you're in it's normal range anyways. I wouldn rather be in his normal stance in every situation.

You don't need to land a full string to special cancel. If you land 1 then you can special cancel into in df1 and full combo from there. Who cares if 111 would whiff?

You don't need to land f23 in b3 to combo. You can go f2 walk forward db1 mb to combo.

 

[SaltShaker]

@karaokelove
His blade form for the MU's where your blaster is ineffective like deadshot etc. Gives you just a slight edge against those characters as they usually have bad tools up close/mid range.

What? If you are in blade form all I have to do is land one touch and you will never cross half screen in this MU.

 

[ATL Jones Bro3]

You don't need to land a full string to special cancel. If you land 1 then you can special cancel into in df1 and full combo from there. Who cares if 111 would whiff?

Because it's plus on block??????? Any player with matchup experience knows there is no reason to block anything but low after the first hit of a beetle string. Df1 is -21 on block lol

 

[PetulantWaste]

Because it's plus on block??????? Any player with matchup experience knows there is no reason to block anything but low after the first hit of a beetle string. Df1 is -21 on block lol

I was talking about a situation like a whiff punish or a trip guard where you KNOW that 1 will hit but 111 will whiff. I'm not talking about throwing it out on block. On block you can cancel into mb f3 too though and catch some people slipping.

You've also said that after the first hit of a beetle string you block low. That's exactly what b23 is for. It's a pure 50/50 whether it's overhead overhead or overhead low.

 

[AK Harold]

@ATL Jones Bro3
So lets look at more specific instances. Also, some more information.

Information
First off BF3 is no longer shield bash, don't think of it like its a lesser shield bash it is just a different tool. Use it similar to Flashes old head butt. As a punisher or trip guarding when they try to jump or dash away.

Jump 1 and 3 become godlike. Flight plus J1 lets you be more lenient on position when using it. It also combos directly into f23 if you see the opportunity. In addition, if you suspect a block you can d4 or b2 50/50 for small gains but way better positions. J3 straight beats a lot of anti airs that you couldn't beat before.

B2 and F2 most people understand this to be an upgrade so I wont detail it.

13xxFlight > 1 Now works anywhere on the screen opening up your meterless damage and pressure.

Deadshot Example

You are not going to win a fire fight against him anytime soon. Rendering most of your plasma options useless. I still use mb jump shot to gain space from time to time, but you cant maintain that since you wont be gaining as much meter if you stay in plasma form.

When you do get the knock down you can plasma some for a little more meter gain as he has to hold 2 plasma and you can mix it up with an air plasma.

Shield bash is no longer an advantage to use as he will typically be backing away from you rather than mauling you. That is when most people use it.

These are the two tools you have lost. Now to what you gain.

You can now punish his Trick shots with your BF3 which is great.

Your new range on f2 allows you to just get in at half screen now instead of getting all the way next to him.

Your new J3 and 1 he has to hold that now since dead shot cannot effectively anti air unless he goes for an air to air in which he will have to guess you are jumping or still lose.

If you do get in close you can build meter with strings now that are plus like his 13 flight cancel now works anywhere with his j1.

Your new 21, B2 and d1 force him out of close range now. Before he would be able to more easily contest up close, but now you can literally stand outside of his b1 range and hit him with either of these.

Personally, I have found that is spend 50/50 in blade form because of these advantages.

 

[ATL Jones Bro3]

I was talking about a situation like a whiff punish or a trip guard where you KNOW that 1 will hit but 111 will whiff. I'm not talking about throwing it out on block. On block you can cancel into mb f3 too though and catch some people slipping.

I mean I guess that's a slightly faster whiff punish option for 25% and a bar.... But you can whiff punish with f2 meterless for the same damage.

 

[AK Harold]

Because it's plus on block??????? Any player with matchup experience knows there is no reason to block anything but low after the first hit of a beetle string. Df1 is -21 on block lol

Use D4 religiously to train them and yes I agree dont do DF1 unless you are on confirm.

 

[AK Harold]

@SaltShaker
That's true dead shot can send you away if he hits you up close. That is the game. I didn't say it was easy.

By that same logic. I can say, but I hit you instead while you were cornered and vortexed you to death and I win now. Anyone can take one instance and choose who makes the right read or reaction. Fighting games are about that understanding and leveraging your advantages. There will always be players that do keep you out forever, but that is typically a player and not a character. Except like Zod vs Lex etc.

 

[AK Harold]

@ATL Jones Bro3
Btw I was curious, are you in Atlanta? Would be down to play live or online. Its way easier to lab with more players and not just running into random different player/characters all the time online.

 

[ATL Jones Bro3]

@ATL Jones Bro3
So lets look at more specific instances. Also, some more information.

Information
First off BF3 is no longer shield bash, don't think of it like its a lesser shield bash it is just a different tool. Use it similar to Flashes old head butt. As a punisher or trip guarding when they try to jump or dash away.

Jump 1 and 3 become godlike. Flight plus J1 lets you be more lenient on position when using it. It also combos directly into f23 if you see the opportunity. In addition, if you suspect a block you can d4 or b2 50/50 for small gains but way better positions. J3 straight beats a lot of anti airs that you couldn't beat before.

B2 and F2 most people understand this to be an upgrade so I wont detail it.

13xxFlight > 1 Now works anywhere on the screen opening up your meterless damage and pressure.

Deadshot Example

You are not going to win a fire fight against him anytime soon. Rendering most of your plasma options useless. I still use mb jump shot to gain space from time to time, but you cant maintain that since you wont be gaining as much meter if you stay in plasma form.

When you do get the knock down you can plasma some for a little more meter gain as he has to hold 2 plasma and you can mix it up with an air plasma.

Shield bash is no longer an advantage to use as he will typically be backing away from you rather than mauling you. That is when most people use it.

These are the two tools you have lost. Now to what you gain.

You can now punish his Trick shots with your BF3 which is great.

Your new range on f2 allows you to just get in at half screen now instead of getting all the way next to him.

Your new J3 and 1 he has to hold that now since dead shot cannot effectively anti air unless he goes for an air to air in which he will have to guess you are jumping or still lose.

If you do get in close you can build meter with strings now that are plus like his 13 flight cancel now works anywhere with his j1.

Your new 21, B2 and d1 force him out of close range now. Before he would be able to more easily contest up close, but now you can literally stand outside of his b1 range and hit him with either of these.

Personally, I have found that is spend 50/50 in blade form because of these advantages.

But the thing is at every range but in f2 range it's more beneficial to have your projectiles. And even if you use f2 to get in you're still -4 and right next to them and as beetle you probably have worse buttons than them. Like I just don't understand where you're switching to trait and actively saying "I need to go in" unless you are losing by a good bit. Most characters you can just out trade with your projectiles due to how fast they are combined with their damage and the fact you have an air projectile and force them to come in on you.

 

[ATL Jones Bro3]

@ATL Jones Bro3
Btw I was curious, are you in Atlanta? Would be down to play live or online. Its way easier to lab with more players and not just running into random different player/characters all the time online.

I like an hour and a half outside of Atlanta.

 

[AK Harold]

@ATL Jones Bro3
As I posted above, you aren't going to beat deadshot at max range as he can cover both your grounded and aerial plasma. And yes your tools will beat deadshots if you stay outside of his d1/b1 range.

You will beat a lot of other zoners purely because Beetles straight plasma is very good though. But there are a handful of characters where plasma is ineffective.

 

[ChatterBox]

Just chiming in here, I think BB trait is an absolute must against Cyborg. His fireball game is much better than BB and he has plus frames on almost everything he does. You can get to a space where blast d1 and f2 ruin his gameplan though.

 

[Espio]

Reading this thread, I have to wonder what people are doing with their time?

Why are we talking about his string gaps like it matters? He has a GAPLESS, minus 4 special that does way more chip and give more space than any of his strings ever will. It's almost like NRS wants you to use shield bash? Imagine that.



My understanding of the character is that he is intended to pelt away at you over time more so than anything. He can get good damage, just gotta be willing to invest in him. His anti-air and poke game is actually really good since his down 1 is 7 frames and he can cancel into shield bash, low stab, back dash etc so he can make you guess and even condition throws with it.

Back 1 is a 10 frame mid that's neutral on block that you can combine with shield bash to create conditioned stagger scenarios. Standing 1 combined with 1,1,1 can be used for throw or stagger options or you can do 1,1 shield bash to remove the gap entirely.

He also has a 9 frame MID that he can cancel into safe special AND a pretty fast overhead that he can as well. If he wants to sustain pressure even more he can use Back 1 or his overhead canceled into MB blast (both options are totally gapless).

His sweep is godlike too. The safety, the range, there's no reason not to use it and use it as a spacing check or to start some offense.

Back 3/Forward 3 are pretty legit too, I've used them to whiff punish and they're especially potent in trait.

His back 2, 3 overhead/overhead string crosses up AND he can use Back 2, low stab, back 2, shield bash OR back 2 MB projectile so while several of these options are unsafe, one option gives him a corner escape and knockdown, two are safe or neutral and one grants an overhead to low combo starter.


The only issues I feel are that trait's range causes way too much of a trade off where you lose your safe chip pressure special, lose your great zoning AND you cannot make his overhead safe. I don't ever use trait and I'm fine with that, I just use it sometimes for side switch combos to keep people in the corner or check people at a range. My solution is to not use it much, been working out so far lol.

His range isn't great, but he's certainly not the only one with this problem and he's decent up close with fast mid options. Then again, he also has Forward 2 which is an advancing mid that is 14 frames and hits at round start so there's that. He can also use shield bash to punish every back dash in the game. He has some ranged answers.

His air projectile (non-meter burned) has some notable block and whiff recovery, but the more I play him, the more I kind of conclude that the regular version is more of a check than meant to be purely a zoning tool. It keeps people honest so they cannot turtle full screen and simply duck your other meterless fireballs. The other key thing is flight has so much utility for offense and defense.

Jaime's not at all a character that plays one style, he does it all and has to do lots of adaptation, conditioning, and he's an honest character. Honesty doesn't equate bad, but he's a character that requires great knowledge, spatial awareness and a high level of yomi.

He certainly has flaws, but every character should. He's good up close, respectable at a range against most characters. He's a decent/solid character in my view.

 

[Ram]

Reading this thread, I have to wonder what people are doing with their time?

Why are we talking about his string gaps like it matters? He has a GAPLESS, minus 4 special that does way more chip and give more space than any of his strings ever will. It's almost like NRS wants you to use shield bash? Imagine that.



My understanding of the character is that he is intended to pelt away at you over time more so than anything. He can get good damage, just gotta be willing to invest in him. His anti-air and poke game is actually really good since his down 1 is 7 frames and he can cancel into shield bash, low stab, back dash etc so he can make you guess and even condition throws with it.

Back 1 is a 10 frame mid that's neutral on block that you can combine with shield bash to create conditioned stagger scenarios. Standing 1 combined with 1,1,1 can be used for throw or stagger options or you can do 1,1 shield bash to remove the gap entirely.

He also has a 9 frame MID that he can cancel into safe special AND a pretty fast overhead that he can as well. If he wants to sustain pressure even more he can use Back 1 or his overhead canceled into MB blast (both options are totally gapless).

His sweep is godlike too. The safety, the range, there's no reason not to use it and use it as a spacing check or to start some offense.

His back 2, 3 overhead/overhead string crosses up AND he can use Back 2, low stab, back 2, shield bash OR back 2 MB projectile so while several of these options are unsafe, one option gives him a corner escape and knockdown, two are safe or neutral and one grants an overhead to low combo starter.


The only issues I feel are that trait's range causes way too much of a trade off where you lose your safe chip pressure special, lose your great zoning AND you cannot make his overhead safe. I don't ever use trait and I'm fine with that, I just use it sometimes for side switch combos to keep people in the corner or check people at a range. My solution is to not use it much, been working out so far lol.

His range isn't great, but he's certainly not the only one with this problem and he's decent up close with fast mid options.

His air projectile (non-meter burned) has some notable block and whiff recovery, but the more I play him, the more I kind of conclude that the regular version is more of a check than meant to be purely a zoning tool. It keeps people honest so they cannot turtle full screen and simply duck your other meterless fireballs. The other key thing is flight has so much utility for offense and defense.

Jaime's not at all a character that plays one style, he does it all and has to do lots of adaptation, conditioning, and he's an honest character. Honesty doesn't equate bad, but he's a character that requires great knowledge, spatial awareness and a high level of yomi.

He certainly has flaws, but every character should. He's good up close, respectable at a range against most characters. He's a decent/solid character in my view.

At max range, traited b2 is safe against like 90-95% of the cast, right?

 

[SaltShaker]

@SaltShaker
That's true dead shot can send you away if he hits you up close. That is the game. I didn't say it was easy.

By that same logic. I can say, but I hit you instead while you were cornered and vortexed you to death and I win now. Anyone can take one instance and choose who makes the right read or reaction. Fighting games are about that understanding and leveraging your advantages. There will always be players that do keep you out forever, but that is typically a player and not a character. Except like Zod vs Lex etc.

Yea but in this specific MU, when the match starts, if I land the first hit what will you do? Switch to trait 3/4 a screen away? How will you ever manage to close the distance with trait toolset? Is it really worth it if trait only benefits one range of the entire screen for the MU?

Yea you lose in a straight up fireball for fireball trade, but you still have options with float and airball and MB Fireball and all to throw off timings and change the pace up. I can't imagine any scenario where Trait Beetle is superior unless maybe being directly in Deadshot's neutral out-poking him or something.

The MU itself is disadvantage when at distance against Deadshot with regular Beetle. Anything outside of start screen and beyond sounds like death in trait if Deadshot is on point unless I'm really missing something in trait stance that would benefit.

 

[Espio]

At max range, traited b2 is safe against like 90-95% of the cast, right?

Back 2 by itself is only minus 9 so that is correct.

 

[Da Tac0]

Beetle is fucking great. His D3 is god like and gives a free cross up. People are sleeping on his footsie game. You can get nasty cross ups with his flying trait. Also he's got a nice overhead that go to a low very quickly. Personally I love throwing his metered gun blast out and dash forward. It's another great way to advance and apply pressure. Plus like some had said above shield makes everything pretty much safe. But I like using gun blast with 111. Yeah complete trash. But Please keep complaining so he can get buffs. I will thank you from the bottom of my heart.

 

[Da Tac0]

What? If you are in blade form all I have to do is land one touch and you will never cross half screen in this MU.

He's probably talking about the range you get with em. Specifically for using his flying move into ji1

 

[SaltShaker]

He's probably talking about the range you get with em. Specifically for using his flying move into ji1

Ahhhh ok. Yea that definitely makes sense.

 

[PetulantWaste]

Yo guys, I just found this out last night but ANY time you land a string like 111 for example you should DEFINITELY cancel into MB F3 instead of MB DF1. You can get 500+ damage just by doing you're standard 111BF3 follow up, super easy. Maybe you guys might've known that but definitely consider it next time you're playing BB. I've been leaving so much damage on the table by blindly going into MB DF1 this whole time. You're gonna spend the meter anyway.

The only thing is that if you mistime it then it won't combo.

 

[Danger317]

Yo guys, I just found this out last night but ANY time you land a string like 111 for example you should DEFINITELY cancel into MB F3 instead of MB DF1. You can get 500+ damage just by doing you're standard 111BF3 follow up, super easy. Maybe you guys might've known that but definitely consider it next time you're playing BB. I've been leaving so much damage on the table by blindly going into MB DF1 this whole time. You're gonna spend the meter anyway.

The only thing is that if you mistime it then it won't combo.

Well you're burning 2 bars of meter to do that. where as doing mb df+1 you can get 40%. so you're only gaining another 15% for that other bar. Maybe in the first round where they can't clash its worth it, but you're potentially cutting your damage down by up to 35% if you dont save that bar for another mb df+1 combo

 

[Coliflowerz]

Yo guys, I just found this out last night but ANY time you land a string like 111 for example you should DEFINITELY cancel into MB F3 instead of MB DF1. You can get 500+ damage just by doing you're standard 111BF3 follow up, super easy. Maybe you guys might've known that but definitely consider it next time you're playing BB. I've been leaving so much damage on the table by blindly going into MB DF1 this whole time. You're gonna spend the meter anyway.

The only thing is that if you mistime it then it won't combo.

Most characters do pretty significant damage with bounce cancels. But like Danger said, its 2 bars. So it's definitely a cost you have to take. But yeah most damage I've found is 111 bbMB j3 111 shield. Corner you can get even more with something like 111 ffMB bf2 13 hover j2 111 shield

 

[Jaku2011]

I think he's fine would be nice if his only advancing mid was either not stupid unsafe or cancellable into shield bash.

 

[AK Harold]

@Jaku2011
Just do a raw F2 hard knockdown safe reaches very far.