Best balanced competitive video game ever?

[God Confirm]

I actually didn't know about that remake. For me I've toyed with the idea about giving the game a whirl again, but I know Battle.net is pretty dead, laggy, and filled with hackers. I know Grubby plays on a thirdparty service, I think it's called W3Arena.net, and I may check that out.

I also want to give StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void more of a whirl.

they cleaned up the game with the release of LotV and there was no hacking for a while. Of course, it's probably not still the case.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/starcraft-ii/starcraft-2-legacy-of-the-void-30-update-disables-all-maphacks-hackers-are-not-impressed

I have heard people make the argument as to why video games and e sports are not a real sport. Bc u are not playing it yourself. Rather, controlling a variable with multiple factors.

You are playing it yourself though, pretty much every sport is controlling a variable with multiple factors. I disagree with anyone who says that.

Poker. Checkers. All are fighting games but with one character.

Cool discussion.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not with the "cool discussion", but the title does say video games not games in general, and I did make an even more specific statement in the OP that ruled out games with one character from this discussion.

"Don't pick games where there is no customizational choice, as its pointless as they are obviously all equally balanced."

If you weren't being sarcastic, then glad you like it

 

[God Confirm]

I actually didn't know about that remake. For me I've toyed with the idea about giving the game a whirl again, but I know Battle.net is pretty dead, laggy, and filled with hackers. I know Grubby plays on a thirdparty service, I think it's called W3Arena.net, and I may check that out.

I also want to give StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void more of a whirl.

I'm also giving LotV more of a whirl recently as my stick broke. Wishing I had done so sooner

 

[Juxtapose]

@WB-chan Sorry, I mean Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne being currently filled with map hackers. I know StarCraft II is good in this regard.

 

[Icefyre]

That's the thing though, I've often found thinking outside of the box and not just following the established meta is usually what resolves problems and leads to new insights in perceived or actual imbalances.

While true, and I definitely approve of the attitude, CL first has been tried on many occasions in pro circuit. I can't remember any high level UD names off the top of my head that used it, but something tells me MadFrog tried it before he retired. His armor skill isn't as useful as you'd think, beetles are good scouts until you get shades, and impale and his ult have always been good. But you'd have to try it and see. Every time I switch to using any UD hero first besides DK, I always switch back once I realize there isn't much of a reason to not go for DK. He just has too many good things going for him.

 

[God Confirm]

@WB-chan Sorry, I mean Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne being currently filled with map hackers. I know StarCraft II is good in this regard.

ah. Well the remake is a fan mod for StarCraft 2, which even if you don't care about graphics, the attention that the game itself gets will probably be enough reason to move ahead, especially since hacks are actually somewhat being controlled and punished. It also means it will be entirely free, as arcade mode is f2p, so you on't even need to have bought SC2 (although I imagine the three of us probably have already anyway). I know a lot of WC3 players are extremely hyped, but who knows how long it will take to be released.

That's the thing though, I've often found thinking outside of the box and not just following the established meta is usually what resolves problems and leads to new insights in perceived or actual imbalances.

I've played a lot of different competitive games, never found a single one where I can't carve my own lane with my own playstyle, optimise it, and not feel like I'm being held back at all. Competitive gaming to too many people just means "copying what someone better at the game tells them is good", and that goes as far as builds, races/characters as a whole, and generally meta choices.

 

[Juxtapose]

While true, and I definitely approve of the attitude, CL first has been tried on many occasions in pro circuit. I can't remember any high level UD names off the top of my head that used it, but something tells me MadFrog tried it before he retired. His armor skill isn't as useful as you'd think, beetles are good scouts until you get shades, and impale and his ult have always been good. But you'd have to try it and see. Every time I switch to using any UD hero first besides DK, I always switch back once I realize there isn't much of a reason to not go for DK. He just has too many good things going for him.

Oh of course, absolutely it would need to be tested. I was thinking about Spawn Beetle and his Armour skill mostly for better tanking and to make up for the Ghouls' squishness (the Beetles specifically for that).

Funny thing though: Do you remember the days everyone thought the Death Knight, and Death Coil specifically, sucked. And then one day with no changes made, suddenly it's OP and needs an immediate NERF!

Oh game communities, you too funny.

 

[God Confirm]

Oh of course, absolutely it would need to be tested. I was thinking about Spawn Beetle and his Armour skill mostly for better tanking and to make up for the Ghouls' squishness (the Beetles specifically for that).

Funny thing though: Do you remember the days everyone thought the Death Knight, and Death Coil specifically, sucked. And then one day with no changes made, suddenly it's OP and needs an immediate NERF!

Oh game communities, you too funny.

goes hand in hand with my last post. 98% of people's understanding of games on a competitive level is just parroting what better players than themselves tell them. They have all these opinions about the current state of the meta etc, without really ever testing any of them or legitimately understanding for themselves why.

 

[Juxtapose]

ah. Well the remake is a fan mod for StarCraft 2, which even if you don't care about graphics, the attention that the game itself gets will probably be enough reason to move ahead, especially since hacks are actually somewhat being controlled and punished. It also means it will be entirely free, as arcade mode is f2p, so you on't even need to have bought SC2 (although I imagine the three of us probably have already anyway). I know a lot of WC3 players are extremely hyped, but who knows how long it will take to be released.



I've played a lot of different competitive games, never found a single one where I can't carve my own lane with my own playstyle, optimise it, and not feel like I'm being held back at all. Competitive gaming to too many people just means "copying what someone better at the game tells them is good", and that goes as far as builds, races/characters as a whole, and generally meta choices.

Yup, and a lot of people copy, swear by it, _and_ talk down to anyone not doing the same, yet they often don't even have an understanding as to _why_ the top players are using said builds and strategies.

As I said, game communities, you too funny.

 

[Juxtapose]

@WB-chan Quit stealing my thoughts!

 

[UPR_Nova]

well, the Halo series is mostly console exclusive so that's probably why that one is only played competitively on consoles lol.

There was a time when Microsoft attempted to try cross-platform multiplayer on FPS's.

http://www.techspot.com/news/39738-microsoft-killed-cross-platform-project-because-pc-gamers-wrecked-console-gamers.html

The title basically sums up what you need to know, but a choice quote to just understand the depth of it:

"The slaughter was so bad, Sood says that Microsoft even pitted "mediocre" PC gamers against "the best" console gamers in testing, and the results were unchanged: the keyboard and mouse prevailed. It's not clear what titles were played, but Unreal and Gears of War are mentioned."

there is no way the general skill cap wouldn't be held back in most shooters for playing on console

If that's the case, I'm genuinely interested in why they continue to play CoD on console. I would guess that the majority of video gamers play console but I'm not saying that's a fact. Interesting stuff. I'm gonna have to research this a bit. Would anyone that knows the answer to this care to elaborate? Or anyone that might have a good guess? Well, maybe not because that's derailing. I've already derailed enough.

 

[God Confirm]

Yup, and a lot of people copy, swear by it, _and_ talk down to anyone not doing the same, yet they often don't even have an understanding as to _why_ the top players are using said builds and strategies.

As I said, game communities, you too funny.

yeah. Easiest example I can give, I don't really play Dota anymore, but when I did I could utterly dominate games with a "low tier" character in Terrorblade and get shit for my pick at the start, and at the end when it's all over they will find some other way to justify their rage and point their whining at the item I built first or the style of which I played. "yeah, that build I just used successfully, and won this game for everyone? Completely unviable. It'll never work."

If that's the case, I'm genuinely interested in why they continue to play CoD on console. I would guess that the majority of video gamers play console but I'm not saying that's a fact. Interesting stuff. I'm gonna have to research this a bit. Would anyone that knows the answer to this care to elaborate? Or anyone that might have a good guess? Well, maybe not because that's derailing. I've already derailed enough.

its not derailing this is a pretty good thread for it

however I can say I have no idea because I know fuck all about CoD. I know real man's shooters like Counterstrike are strictly PC tho seriously tho I'd imagine it's where the community is, like FGC, however it is kinda strange to me. Maybe the PC ports are wacksauce

 

[CrazyFingers]

Now that I mention WH40k: DoW anyone else ever play that game?

 

[God Confirm]

Now that I mention WH40koW anyone else ever play that game?

I played both all the way through and all story based expansions, but only single player.

Planning on giving multiplayer a shot with DoW3

 

[CrazyFingers]

I played both all the way through and all story based expansions, but only single player.

Planning on giving multiplayer a shot with DoW3

The multiplayer is really fun, I'm excited for the third one, hopefully can grab it at some point and I will play it super hard. I thought I saw Necrons coming back and if I did my main is back.

 

[Juxtapose]

@WB-chan Yup, a buddy of mine has the same issues in Overwatch. He's a Symetra main and has been since day 1. People hate him the second he chooses her, some even refuse to play and through the game.

He dominates and is the highest ranked Symmetra in the world. They still hate/report him. Ignorance.

I also just watched that mod video you posted, and pretty much creamed my drawers. Is it still being worked on though, as the last video is a year-ish old?

 

[God Confirm]

@WB-chan Yup, a buddy of mine has the same issues in Overwatch. He's a Symetra main and has been since day 1. People hate him the second he chooses her, some even refuse to play and through the game.

He dominates and is the highest ranked Symmetra in the world. They still hate/report him. Ignorance.

I also just watched that mod video you posted, and pretty much creamed my drawers. Is it still being worked on though, as the last video is a year-ish old?

it's still being worked on. They've got people's attention and they are still a bit off release, so they probably just aren't wasting time putting together "showy" gameplay videos or whatever. They update facebook a couple of times a month, models for Undead have been the theme for the past couple. Here's Meat Wagon https://sketchfab.com/models/2fcb5aa972fa4f7b89aee49852485360

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1507&v=Vg5iIZGnqqU orc gameplay and some good combat

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I know you said in general but I still believe that statement is a bit overboard. Tons of money has been dumped into CoD and Halo and that is a pretty damn high skill cap at the competitive levels of both of those games, especially tournament and LAN play. I'm not calling you out, I'm just curious about your perspective on this. Also, are you strictly PC for FPS or do you play console FPS as well?

CoD and Halo are extremely miniscule in comparison to esports like CS:GO, DotA2, LoL etc. Like, yes, Microsoft will blow a million dollars on one big tournament every year, but outside of that the scene is all but dead.

Compare that to even say, Overwatch, which has less money but just had a huge APEX season in Korea (with another starting in 3 weeks), has a monthly melee with the top US teams, and constantly has majors and big tournaments. It also has some big streamers that pretty regularly draw thousands of viewers when they play each week.

CoD is a little better than Halo, but still, you'll rarely see CoD or Halo in the Top 5 games on Twitch until there's a big event.

 

[Dark_Ky]

Smash 4 for the Wii U

I have played lots of FG and still do but I havent seen such competent observing, understanding and nerfing/buffing of their chars like Nintendo did with Smash 4 and with 58(!) chars on top of that.

 

[Icy Black Deep]

To clarify, by balanced I mean you can pick any character or race or car or whatever available and be equally as competitive as anyone else, even if the playstyle is different.

Thinking about it, I think this definition disqualifies most FPS games. We used to think the Shadowrun FPS was very well balanced because there were counters for all the abilities. But the meta was pretty solidly locked in to a particular team composition and everyone did pretty much the same thing for the first three rounds. Also we pretty much avoided any asymmetrical maps.

Similarly Overwatch may or may not be balanced, depending on who you ask, but objectively there isn't a huge variety in team composition at high level tournament play, and certain maps are very much avoided. So by the definition of "you can choose anyone and win" I don't think you could call it "balanced."

 

[God Confirm]

Thinking about it, I think this definition disqualifies most FPS games. We used to think the Shadowrun FPS was very well balanced because there were counters for all the abilities. But the meta was pretty solidly locked in to a particular team composition and everyone did pretty much the same thing for the first three rounds. Also we pretty much avoided any asymmetrical maps.

Similarly Overwatch may or may not be balanced, depending on who you ask, but objectively there isn't a huge variety in team composition at high level tournament play, and certain maps are very much avoided. So by the definition of "you can choose anyone and win" I don't think you could call it "balanced."

yep, most definitely. Any games that fit the description you gave are probably unbalanced. I think you could make an exception for "joke" weapons or characters e.g. Hercule in DBZ games etc, but that would probably be the extent of it. It also isn't about popularity though, i.e. it doesn't matter if 90% of the game plays Scorpion or Sub-Zero if all the other characters are equally viable when it comes to getting tourney results.

 

[haketh]

Now that I mention WH40k: DoW anyone else ever play that game?

Love em but they're pretty far from balnced, God Fleet of Foot is dumb

 

[CrazyFingers]

Love em but they're pretty far from balnced, God Fleet of Foot is dumb

Truuuuuuuuue

 

[Alright RyRy]

Halo 2.

 

[Mista_Snacks]

Pokemon TCG bruh

 

[haketh]

Truuuuuuuuue

God it was so dumb until Winter Assault Fleet of Foot was that strong

But I can't really complain cuz I played the hell outta Tau in Winter Assault