Best balanced competitive video game ever?

[Evil Canadian]

White always has an advantage though. It's a pretty big balance issue actually.

oh then forward it to ed he will rebalance chess

no more armoured launchers for white in chess

 

[callMEcrazy]

Great idea for a thread @WB-chan ! In terms of game balance, I honestly think Blizzard Entertainment does an excellent job with their games over time.

The original Starcraft, for example, was extremely balanced as was its expansion set.

My vote would have to go to Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne. That's actually the only game I've ever played publicly competitively, and in any RTS I'm a Random player. At the height of my "career" in that game, not once did I ever feel I couldn't perform with any of the four Races. The losses I suffered were always simply because I was outplayed or due to my own shortcomings with some of the Races.

Since they all were different, it's only natural to be stronger with some and weaker with others. My best by the end of my career was Orc and my worst was Undead. Ironically Undead was and is my favourite.

Frozen Throne was excellent and seemed very well balanced. I played it for a long time. But I was also in the habit of watching replays of competitive games. Those tended to indicate that the Night Elves faction had the edge over the other three. If you drew a list of the 10 best Frozen Throne players, you'd probably find that at least 5 of them used Night Elves.

But my conclusion is drawn entirely from this observation. All the while I was playing the game myself I never really felt any imbalance. And what a game it was. It also gave birth to DotA, and in fact the whole moba genre.

 

[conqueror]

Yeah bans are selected at the start of the round and used for strategic reasons. My original point was that in most patches, there has been very strong banning trends towards certain characters across tournaments, which suggests a bit of imbalance. It is kind of hard to be sure with that game as far as balance goes, but I'm pretty sure Earth Spirit spent a ridiculous amount of time being stupidly good across like a brazillion patches

I wasnt talking about balance, I was just informing that guy about the real banning reason in that game
And for sure there is some imbalance there and this is really hard in this case because of the large pool of characters

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

My bad for dota

 

[KeyserSoze]

Well yeah the statistics don't mean anything on a small enough scale. But assuming I play it correctly 1.e4 should give me about a 54~% win rate over thousands of games. It's like playing poker. Knowing your odds of winning vs any random hand or specific sets of hands(2 over cards/suited connectors etc) doesn't matter IN the hand you're playing but you absolutely use those odds when determining how to play the hand. Here's some stats from a random database.

# of games in database: 824,705
Years covered: 1475 to 2017 (543 years)
White wins 310,712 games (37.68%)
Black wins 230,195 games (27.91%)
283,784 games are drawn (34.41%)
Average # of moves per game: 40.59
Average Elo rating of rated players: 2193
That seems significant for non tournament sets.

Yep. Poker is actually a very solid analogy.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Overwatch is really well balanced at the moment. Even at the highest level, there's room for all the DPS, and every tank except the newest one. There are only a couple heroes that don't see extended play (and sone of those even have situational uses).

And pretty much everything is viable on the competitive ladder, except Junkrat

Overall one of the most balanced hero-based games I've seen.

 

[vegeta]

ST has a handful of 1-9's and a bunch of 2-8 / 3-7 matchups.

try playing gief vs o. sagat or honda vs deejay and tell me that is an even playing field.

ST has a handful of 1-9's and a bunch of 2-8 / 3-7 matchups.

try playing gief vs o. sagat or honda vs deejay and tell me that is an even playing field.

Considering what I witnessed when it was highly active back then and what most who played it said, I'll say it again...

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

Overwatch is really well balanced at the moment. Even at the highest level, there's room for all the DPS, and every tank except the newest one. There are only a couple heroes that don't see extended play (and sone of those even have situational uses).

And pretty much everything is viable on the competitive ladder, except Junkrat

Overall one of the most balanced hero-based games I've seen.

Isn't the game unbalanced on console with hero like Widowmaker still kind of unviable and is there a game where one character doesn't have a situational use?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Isn't the game unbalanced on console with hero like Widowmaker still kind of unviable and is there a game where one character doesn't have a situational use?

Console is not am ideal place to play high skill cap FPS, in general. It'd be like trying to play MK with your joypad analog stick.

But there are no serious competitions on console, so it's kind of a moot point as you won't see much high level play.

 

[Icefyre]

Frozen Throne was excellent and seemed very well balanced. I played it for a long time. But I was also in the habit of watching replays of competitive games. Those tended to indicate that the Night Elves faction had the edge over the other three. If you drew a list of the 10 best Frozen Throne players, you'd probably find that at least 5 of them used Night Elves.

As an Undead player, I disagree with this. The orc mu was/is busted, but UD had like a 52%+ win rate vs Hu/NE in higher level competitive circuits iirc. Been a while since I played it but I'm still pretty sure Blademaster still never got the nerf he deserved.

Also, to weigh in on the chess aspect, I'm a former competitor as of about a year ago, when I stopped going to tournaments and am still undecided if I will return. White's advantage is minuscule, the points made regarding player accuracy is far more relevant than white's first turn advantage. I could make the argument that white's first turn advantage doesn't do anything for human players realistically, as the winner is better determined the player's understanding of the position. Pit any human player, even Magnus Carlsen, against Stockfish or Komodo engines and white's first turn advantage suddenly doesn't mean shit.

Since there are apparently so many chess players here, did any of you manage to make it to NY last November for the WCC? I might have seen one of you there

 

[UPR_Nova]

Console is not am ideal place to play high skill cap FPS, in general. It'd be like trying to play MK with your joypad analog stick.

But there are no serious competitions on console, so it's kind of a moot point as you won't see much high level play.

I know you said in general but I still believe that statement is a bit overboard. Tons of money has been dumped into CoD and Halo and that is a pretty damn high skill cap at the competitive levels of both of those games, especially tournament and LAN play. I'm not calling you out, I'm just curious about your perspective on this. Also, are you strictly PC for FPS or do you play console FPS as well?

 

[CrazyFingers]

In all seriousness, Warhammer 40k Dawn of War was relatively balanced in its day. Except for Necrons being Necrons.

 

[Juxtapose]

Frozen Throne was excellent and seemed very well balanced. I played it for a long time. But I was also in the habit of watching replays of competitive games. Those tended to indicate that the Night Elves faction had the edge over the other three. If you drew a list of the 10 best Frozen Throne players, you'd probably find that at least 5 of them used Night Elves.

But my conclusion is drawn entirely from this observation. All the while I was playing the game myself I never really felt any imbalance. And what a game it was. It also gave birth to DotA, and in fact the whole moba genre.

Night Elf has always been popular though, and they were indeed imbalanced at the launch of Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos. Huntresses have great mobility, Archers are excellent for focus fire, The Demon Hunter was an agile quasi-tank, and people slept on the Warden for a long time. Scouting is pretty easy with Wisps as well.

By the time I stopped playing (sometime in early to mid-2004) they were still quite popular, but I don't believe they were considered imbalanced outside of the usual whining.

 

[Juxtapose]

As an Undead player, I disagree with this. The orc mu was/is busted, but UD had like a 52%+ win rate vs Hu/NE in higher level competitive circuits iirc. Been a while since I played it but I'm still pretty sure Blademaster still never got the nerf he deserved.

This must have been after I stopped playing when everyone was still sleeping on the Blademaster. Back then, everyone was still going Far Seer first; I was the only Orc I knew regularly going Blademaster first, though I often used Mirror Image over Critical Strike.

Once people woke up on Wind Walk though, yeah, I hear it broke the Undead match up and overall I see people saying now Undead is the weakest Race overall. Whether that's true or whining I can't say.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

Halo 3 was super balanced with symmetrical map design. Fair power weapon spawns and easy to learn mechanics really put the games focus on outplays and team work.

That's my vote

 

[ienjoywinning]

Mk9

 

[Icefyre]

This must have been after I stopped playing when everyone was still sleeping on the Blademaster. Back then, everyone was still going Far Seer first; I was the only Orc I knew regularly going Blademaster first, though I often used Mirror Image over Critical Strike.

Once people woke up on Wind Walk though, yeah, I hear it broke the Undead match up and overall I see people saying now Undead is the weakest Race overall. Whether that's true or whining I can't say.

You must have missed the reign of Grubby then, lol. But yeah, there's very little UD can do vs Orc, and Blizzard obviously never had any intentions of fixing it. I remember Lucifer had a couple good games vs Orc when he went Dread Lord first on certain maps to get the sleep->surround, but it was really just a cheese strat at best that worked best on extremely small maps or close spawns. Ted's fast crypt fiend build was, iirc, the best attempt UD had and it still had an incredibly low win rate.

Look up Hitler's reaction to Blademaster (at work right now, can't link). It's funny because it's true. It represents how I felt as an UD player.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Command and conquer red alert 2

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I have heard people make the argument as to why video games and e sports are not a real sport. Bc u are not playing it yourself. Rather, controlling a variable with multiple factors.

Poker. Checkers. All are fighting games but with one character.

Cool discussion.

 

[Juxtapose]

You must have missed the reign of Grubby then, lol. But yeah, there's very little UD can do vs Orc, and Blizzard obviously never had any intentions of fixing it. I remember Lucifer had a couple good games vs Orc when he went Dread Lord first on certain maps to get the sleep->surround, but it was really just a cheese strat at best that worked best on extremely small maps or close spawns. Ted's fast crypt fiend build was, iirc, the best attempt UD had and it still had an incredibly low win rate.

Look up Hitler's reaction to Blademaster (at work right now, can't link). It's funny because it's true. It represents how I felt as an UD player.

Grubby was indeed a known name when I stopped playing by about mid-2004, but he wasn't "reigning" yet. I've actually watched some of his more recent matches a few months ago as he seems to be one of the most active top players left.

As for Blizzard Entertainment, they may still as the game is still supported and receiving patches, though it's been a while since they released a balance patch. You never know though and the fact that they're still supporting/patching it at all, including Starcraft and Diablo II, is another testament to me about the quality and commitment of that company.

When I stopped playing, as I mentioned far above, Undead was my favourite Race but sadly it was also my worst. Playing with Crypt Fiends as the main Tier 1 unit though never felt right to me and I used them proper as support units. I still went with Ghouls as my main, but teching fast to Banshees vs Orc, as Curse is insanely underrated (and apparently still is, from what I gather). I suspect people could do more with the Crypt Lord if they stopped going Death Knight first all the time, but again I'd need to test out my own theories now and I'm also no where near the top of my game like I used to be, so what do I know .

 

[Juxtapose]

I have heard people make the argument as to why video games and e sports are not a real sport. Bc u are not playing it yourself. Rather, controlling a variable with multiple factors.

Poker. Checkers. All are fighting games but with one character.

Cool discussion.

That's an interesting point though. Most people I know wouldn't consider Poker a "sport," despite how popular it's become. People tend to acquaint sports with physical activity.

 

[God Confirm]

I know you said in general but I still believe that statement is a bit overboard. Tons of money has been dumped into CoD and Halo and that is a pretty damn high skill cap at the competitive levels of both of those games, especially tournament and LAN play. I'm not calling you out, I'm just curious about your perspective on this. Also, are you strictly PC for FPS or do you play console FPS as well?

well, the Halo series is mostly console exclusive so that's probably why that one is only played competitively on consoles lol.

There was a time when Microsoft attempted to try cross-platform multiplayer on FPS's.

http://www.techspot.com/news/39738-microsoft-killed-cross-platform-project-because-pc-gamers-wrecked-console-gamers.html

The title basically sums up what you need to know, but a choice quote to just understand the depth of it:

"The slaughter was so bad, Sood says that Microsoft even pitted "mediocre" PC gamers against "the best" console gamers in testing, and the results were unchanged: the keyboard and mouse prevailed. It's not clear what titles were played, but Unreal and Gears of War are mentioned."

there is no way the general skill cap wouldn't be held back in most shooters for playing on console

As an Undead player, I disagree with this. The orc mu was/is busted, but UD had like a 52%+ win rate vs Hu/NE in higher level competitive circuits iirc. Been a while since I played it but I'm still pretty sure Blademaster still never got the nerf he deserved.

Also, to weigh in on the chess aspect, I'm a former competitor as of about a year ago, when I stopped going to tournaments and am still undecided if I will return. White's advantage is minuscule, the points made regarding player accuracy is far more relevant than white's first turn advantage. I could make the argument that white's first turn advantage doesn't do anything for human players realistically, as the winner is better determined the player's understanding of the position. Pit any human player, even Magnus Carlsen, against Stockfish or Komodo engines and white's first turn advantage suddenly doesn't mean shit.

Since there are apparently so many chess players here, did any of you manage to make it to NY last November for the WCC? I might have seen one of you there

This must have been after I stopped playing when everyone was still sleeping on the Blademaster. Back then, everyone was still going Far Seer first; I was the only Orc I knew regularly going Blademaster first, though I often used Mirror Image over Critical Strike.

Once people woke up on Wind Walk though, yeah, I hear it broke the Undead match up and overall I see people saying now Undead is the weakest Race overall. Whether that's true or whining I can't say.

Are you guys planning on picking the game back up when this HD fan remake is released?

I never played competitively but I loved Night Elves, still play nobody but Terrorblade in Dota and have an Illidan statue

 

[Icefyre]

When I stopped playing, as I mentioned far above, Undead was my favourite Race but sadly it was also my worst. Playing with Crypt Fiends as the main Tier 1 unit though never felt right to me and I used them proper as support units. I still went with Ghouls as my main, but teching fast to Banshees vs Orc, as Curse is insanely underrated (and apparently still is, from what I gather). I suspect people could do more with the Crypt Lord if they stopped going Death Knight first all the time, but again I'd need to test out my own theories now and I'm also no where near the top of my game like I used to be, so what do I know .

Don't get me wrong, I actually think Blizzard is a great company as far as supporting their games goes. It's just that Blademaster breaking the mu vs ud so badly has been known for so long, yet nothing has ever been done about it so I just don't expect anything.

Ted's fast crypt fiend build was actually designed for fast teching to t3 to rush destroyers, pretty much the only thing worth using against orc unless you wanted to go the mass banshee strat. But mass banshees was played mainly for possession, as curse, while underrated as you said, does have its own issues. CL first...works, but lacking that almighty death coil definitely takes some getting used to, and changes up ud's meta pretty heavily. It's doable.

Are you guys planning on picking the game back up when this HD fan remake is released?

I never played competitively but I loved Night Elves, still play nobody but Terrorblade in Dota and have an Illidan statue

Probably, but we'll see when it comes out. I have so much going on that I don't know that I'll have time for anything competitive with it, but if the ud vs orc mu has been altered then I'll consider it again.

 

[Juxtapose]

well, the Halo series is mostly console exclusive so that's probably why that one is only played competitively on consoles lol.

There was a time when Microsoft attempted to try cross-platform multiplayer on FPS's.

http://www.techspot.com/news/39738-microsoft-killed-cross-platform-project-because-pc-gamers-wrecked-console-gamers.html

The title basically sums up what you need to know, but a choice quote to just understand the depth of it:

"The slaughter was so bad, Sood says that Microsoft even pitted "mediocre" PC gamers against "the best" console gamers in testing, and the results were unchanged: the keyboard and mouse prevailed. It's not clear what titles were played, but Unreal and Gears of War are mentioned."

there is no way the general skill cap wouldn't be held back in most shooters for playing on console



Are you guys planning on picking the game back up when this HD fan remake is released?

I never played competitively but I loved Night Elves, still play nobody but Terrorblade in Dota and have an Illidan statue

I actually didn't know about that remake. For me I've toyed with the idea about giving the game a whirl again, but I know Battle.net is pretty dead, laggy, and filled with hackers. I know Grubby plays on a thirdparty service, I think it's called W3Arena.net, and I may check that out.

I also want to give StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void more of a whirl.

 

[Juxtapose]

Don't get me wrong, I actually think Blizzard is a great company as far as supporting their games goes. It's just that Blademaster breaking the mu vs ud so badly has been known for so long, yet nothing has ever been done about it so I just don't expect anything.

Ted's fast crypt fiend build was actually designed for fast teching to t3 to rush destroyers, pretty much the only thing worth using against orc unless you wanted to go the mass banshee strat. But mass banshees was played mainly for possession, as curse, while underrated as you said, does have its own issues. CL first...works, but lacking that almighty death coil definitely takes some getting used to, and changes up ud's meta pretty heavily. It's doable.

That's the thing though, I've often found thinking outside of the box and not just following the established meta is usually what resolves problems and leads to new insights in perceived or actual imbalances.