Best balanced competitive video game ever?

[Doombawkz]

Naruto Ultimate Ninja Revolution 3 for the Wii.

Also, at the end of it's life, Playstation All Stars was actually rather well balanced.

 

[navaroNe]

Melee only has 4-5 characters that could win a tournament solo with top competition. Not to mention over half the cast is unviable at a tournament level. It is the farthest thing from balanced.

Yes that's true the characters aren't balanced, I'm just talking about the overall fighting system. The only fighting games I've really played are NRS ones, a few SF titles and smash games so my opinion doesn't really come from the most reliable sources, lol but yeah your right I didnt really think it through enough.

 

[God Confirm]

Pong

Pong

Pong boyz

Seriously, can a videogame be more balanced than that? Same exact set of rules for both players. Only thing that matters is skill, there are no choices or additional tools that help you to win. Obviously it's not the hypest thing in the world xD
A comparison with fighting games would be any fg where you could only select one character.

Sooooooooo sf1. Like I said lol.

cmon guys. It's in the OP.


"To clarify, by balanced I mean you can pick any character or race or car or whatever available and be equally as competitive as anyone else, even if the playstyle is different. Don't pick games where there is no customizational choice, as its pointless as they are obviously all equally balanced."

 

[Peckapowa]

Quake 3 is sooooo fucking fun. But man, FUCK anyone who was skilled with the railgun. >=O

i was a comp. counter-strike player, when i got into quake live for a while, i'd win solely because my rail gun was retarded i'd go on like 10 hit streaks with it.


On a serious note peoples are comparing apples and oranges, shooters are inherently balanced because everyone uses the same weapons, where as fighters/mobas have way more variables to balance.


Like of course chess is balanced, there is literally one part that isn't balanced and that is that someone starts first. i suppose you could argue that each piece has a fairly solidified and important role

 

[Rabbit]

Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo.
Every Character could win and did equal amount of devastating damage. Fairly even playing field. Technically I guess you could say the game was so broken that it was balanced.

ST has a handful of 1-9's and a bunch of 2-8 / 3-7 matchups.

try playing gief vs o. sagat or honda vs deejay and tell me that is an even playing field.

 

[FL Rushdown]

i was a comp. counter-strike player, when i got into quake live for a while, i'd win solely because my rail gun was (soap bar in my mouth) i'd go on like 10 hit streaks with it.


On a serious note peoples are comparing apples and oranges, shooters are inherently balanced because everyone uses the same weapons, where as fighters/mobas have way more variables to balance.


Like of course chess is balanced, there is literally one part that isn't balanced and that is that someone starts first. i suppose you could argue that each piece has a fairly solidified and important role

Chess is pretty well balanced but I think youre underrating the importance of going first lol. Pretty sure the difference is around 5%. So white vs black is an 11/9 matchup.

This is not 100% serious. Wasn't gonna add this but I feel like someone's gonna come in and argue about draws and start quoting lasker.

 

[FL Rushdown]

ST has a handful of 1-9's and a bunch of 2-8 / 3-7 matchups.

try playing gief vs o. sagat or honda vs deejay and tell me that is an even playing field.

Yeah gonna have to say that game was and is busted as fuck. They legit have unblockable loops. Hard to do but you could conceivably lose in one touch.

 

[KeyserSoze]

White always has an advantage though. It's a pretty big balance issue actually.

Actually, as a former competitive chess player myself, I can tell you that it's not that big of an issue. There are some chess experts who argue that White's advantage is mostly insignificant. And, regardless, in round robin tournaments, players generally receive an equal number (or as close to an equal number as possible) of chances being both white and black.

 

[KeyserSoze]

This is not 100% serious. Wasn't gonna add this but I feel like someone's gonna come in and argue about draws and start quoting lasker.

Yep, that would be me, lol.

Seriously though, as someone who competed in chess tournaments for a number of years, I can tell you that White's (minor) statistical advantage is far, far, less of a determining factor than the multitude of minor mistakes made by most players in most games. Also, it's generally a moot point anyway, because all relevant tournaments go out of their way to ensure that players get an equal number of chances with both white and black.

Lastly, a very good theoretical argument can be made that, if both players play absolutely "perfectly" (it's undefined what this would precisely entail), the result should always be a draw.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Yep, that would be me, lol.

Seriously though, as someone who competed in chess tournaments for a number of years, I can tell you that White's (minor) statistical advantage is far, far, less of a determining factor than the multitude of minor mistakes made by most players in most games. Also, it's generally a moot point anyway, because all relevant tournaments go out of their way to ensure that players get an equal number of chances with both white and black.

Lastly, a very good theoretical argument can be made that, if both players play absolutely "perfectly" (it's undefined what this would precisely entail), the result should always be a draw.

I'm aware. Trust me I didn't randomly pull laskers name out of a hat. Guess I shoulda went with steinitz though. Although I'd argue in a match where it's ft1 in a non tournament setting, If I was gonna play someone for money in Washington square park for example you bet your ass I want white.

 

[KeyserSoze]

I'm aware. Trust me I didn't randomly pull laskers name out of a hat. Guess I shoulda went with steinitz though. Although I'd argue in a match where it's ft1 in a non tournament setting, If I was gonna play someone for money in Washington square park for example you bet your ass I want white.

Interesting. See, I don't think I would care. I think in virtually every game I have ever lost, I have always been able to point to some obvious mistake or lapse of judgment. I think the better player (or, at least, the player who plays better on that day) wins in such an overwhelmingly vast majority of chess games, that I wouldn't bother psyching myself out worrying about it one way or another.

 

[Dizzy]

Senor footsies. Anyone who said anything else, i'll take your apologies right now.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Interesting. See, I don't think I would care. I think in virtually every game I have ever lost, I have always been able to point to some obvious mistake or lapse of judgment. I think the better player (or, at least, the player who plays better on that day) wins in such an overwhelmingly vast majority of chess games, that I wouldn't bother psyching myself out worrying about it one way or another.

Yeah I don't think I've ever lost a match without making a mistake, but I do think it's easier to make a mistake as black than it is as white. Especially for players in the 1600-2k range. I'd just always rather have the initiative than not have it, I understand some players are stronger defensive players(petrosian comes to mind) but not accounting for player preference I can't imagine why you'd want to start with a disadvantage in the center/down a tempo.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Senor footsies. Anyone who said anything else, i'll take your apologies right now.

I'm...... sorry. So sorry.

I just...... I didn't know.

I
Didn't
Know.

 

[JustPressingButtons]

Competitive Tetris @op

 

[KeyserSoze]

Yeah I don't think I've ever lost a match without making a mistake, but I do think it's easier to make a mistake as black than it is as white. Especially for players in the 1600-2k range. I'd just always rather have the initiative than not have it, I understand some players are stronger defensive players(petrosian comes to mind) but not accounting for player preference I can't imagine why you'd want to start with a disadvantage in the center/down a tempo.

I think the ultimate veracity of the bolded statement is highly dependent on individual play-style and in-game circumstances, more than anything else. I mean, if you put a gun to my head and told me to pick a color, I'd pick white. But, if you told me that I had to play against someone with my life on the line and I had to pick black, I wouldn't lose the slightest bit of confidence, practically speaking.

In essence, I think you are right, but I just think the magnitude of the practical disparity between playing as white and playing as black is far smaller than the margin of error associated with how well you play, in any one game.

 

[God Confirm]

Even if white - black is 11-9, that's still pretty good balance, that's still practically a 5-5 at the end of the day, and that's the worst (and only) match up in the entire game

However Chess isn't a video game, nor is there any customization or class selection of any sort, so it doesn't check any boxes in regards to this discussion

 

[FL Rushdown]

I think the ultimate veracity of the bolded statement is highly dependent on individual play-style and in-game circumstances, more than anything else. I mean, if you put a gun to my head and told me to pick a color, I'd pick white. But, if you told me that I had to play against someone with my life on the line and I had to pick black, I wouldn't lose the slightest bit of confidence, practically speaking.

In essence, I think you are right, but I just think the magnitude of the practical disparity between playing as white and playing as black is far smaller than the margin of error associated with how well you play, in any one game.

Well yeah the statistics don't mean anything on a small enough scale. But assuming I play it correctly 1.e4 should give me about a 54~% win rate over thousands of games. It's like playing poker. Knowing your odds of winning vs any random hand or specific sets of hands(2 over cards/suited connectors etc) doesn't matter IN the hand you're playing but you absolutely use those odds when determining how to play the hand. Here's some stats from a random database.

# of games in database: 824,705
Years covered: 1475 to 2017 (543 years)
White wins 310,712 games (37.68%)
Black wins 230,195 games (27.91%)
283,784 games are drawn (34.41%)
Average # of moves per game: 40.59
Average Elo rating of rated players: 2193
That seems significant for non tournament sets.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Two words:

Twisted Metal 2.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Two words:

Twisted Metal 2.

That's two words and a number sir

 

[NSR]

i was a comp. counter-strike player, when i got into quake live for a while, i'd win solely because my rail gun was (soap bar in my mouth) i'd go on like 10 hit streaks with it.


On a serious note peoples are comparing apples and oranges, shooters are inherently balanced because everyone uses the same weapons, where as fighters/mobas have way more variables to balance.


Like of course chess is balanced, there is literally one part that isn't balanced and that is that someone starts first. i suppose you could argue that each piece has a fairly solidified and important role

To be fair, even shooters can have balance issues although different ones in comparison to fighters/mobas, obviously. The best example I can give is in Quake 1, with the RL/LG/GL dominating everything, but even then, Rocket Launcher was by far the best weapon in that game (and it's weapon number 7, not 8 which is Lightning Gun) and the Grenade Launcher was debatably better than the LG since you could limit player's movement by laying grenades all over the place, dmg was high (both direct hit and splash) and it was possible to grenade jump.
LG's main advantage was that it killed insanely quickly, but it ran out of ammo way WAY too fucking fast in comparison to the previous two weapons, not to mention that you died if you used it underwater (unless you had a pentagram but you would lose all ammo)
The other weapons, hell, the weapon immediately below the GL, the Super Nailgun, was garbage versus a player who had a Rocket Launcher.
Again, this is with NetQuake (vanilla mp), not QuakeWorld, so I can't say how much they nerfed these guns there.

@Lt. Boxy Static
Glad to see another TM player here.
But I would say there are a few balance issues with TM2: namely, Minion having too much of an advantage over the other cars, and Grasshopper being fucking useless. At least Grimm's special did some good damage, GH was just annoying to use and had low armor.
Not to mention, a car that had weak armor but decent handling/speed and one hell of a special was Spectre.
TM2's mostly balanced though, but Minion and Grasshopper always come to mind as the least balanced cars. Maybe Minion is understandable though, given he's a boss in 2, not so much for GH.

Speaking of TM, I think Black: Offline was very well balanced out sans (again) Minion, although in Black:Online they nerfed him (and rebalanced the other chars) but I haven't played TMBO much to really say if it's better than offline.

 

[Peckapowa]

To be fair, even shooters can have balance issues although different ones in comparison to fighters/mobas, obviously. The best example I can give is in Quake 1, with the RL/LG/GL dominating everything, but even then, Rocket Launcher was by far the best weapon in that game (and it's weapon number 7, not 8 which is Lightning Gun) and the Grenade Launcher was debatably better than the LG since you could limit player's movement by laying grenades all over the place, dmg was high (both direct hit and splash) and it was possible to grenade jump.
LG's main advantage was that it killed insanely quickly, but it ran out of ammo way WAY too fucking fast in comparison to the previous two weapons, not to mention that you died if you used it underwater (unless you had a pentagram but you would lose all ammo)
The other weapons, hell, the weapon immediately below the GL, the Super Nailgun, was garbage versus a player who had a Rocket Launcher.
Again, this is with NetQuake (vanilla mp), not QuakeWorld, so I can't say how much they nerfed these guns there.

@Lt. Boxy Static
Glad to see another TM player here.
But I would say there are a few balance issues with TM2: namely, Minion having too much of an advantage over the other cars, and Grasshopper being fucking useless. At least Grimm's special did some good damage, GH was just annoying to use and had low armor.
Not to mention, a car that had weak armor but decent handling/speed and one hell of a special was Spectre.
TM2's mostly balanced though, but Minion and Grasshopper always come to mind as the least balanced cars. Maybe Minion is understandable though, given he's a boss in 2, not so much for GH.

Speaking of TM, I think Black: Offline was very well balanced out sans (again) Minion, although in Black:Online they nerfed him (and rebalanced the other chars) but I haven't played TMBO much to really say if it's better than offline.

I guess shooters i view as balanced because everyone buys the same guns / picks up the weapons and they are all available, so it's a fair competitive setting. but i guess in fighting games all the chars are available to everyone so yeah.

 

[God Confirm]

I guess shooters i view as balanced because everyone buys the same guns / picks up the weapons and they are all available, so it's a fair competitive setting. but i guess in fighting games all the chars are available to everyone so yeah.

yeah, its not about what you have the option of doing, its whether all options have a similar amount of viability (so long as you build/use them right)

 

[conqueror]

Is your game actually balanced If you have to ban things I don't think so

in dota baning is for strategic reason

 

[God Confirm]

Yeah bans are selected at the start of the round and used for strategic reasons. My original point was that in most patches, there has been very strong banning trends towards certain characters across tournaments, which suggests a bit of imbalance. It is kind of hard to be sure with that game as far as balance goes, but I'm pretty sure Earth Spirit spent a ridiculous amount of time being stupidly good across like a brazillion patches