Discussion Australian man makes tier list, world peace occurs as a result! (Current All Variation Tier List)

[YUZU_RZA]

No problem fam. Where would you put Metallic on the tier list?

I'd put Metallic A+ ( maybe I'm wrong ). Like you said he got the restand, so your opponnent doesnt have any wakeup option when you end your combos . He got the most meterless damage out of the 3 variation and unbreakable combos( cookies, etc). his weakness would be teleport character and femal hitbox (low profile, ect).
He's the best pick (to me) versus character who can break every tremor wakeup cuz he got the 2 hits armor on the lava stance.

 

[D7X]

Ehhhh it's a start but there's so much I disagree with here. Lemme post mine [from another Aussie ]. For tiers to have any meaning, there shouldn't be more than 10-15 characters in each tier.


S+
Triborg (Smoke)
Ermac (Mystic)
Jacqui Briggs (Full auto)
Mileena (Ethereal)
Shinnok (Imposter)
Predator (Hish-Qu-Ten)
Raiden (Displacer)
Liu Kang (Dragon's Fire)

S
Scorpion (Hellfire)
Jason (Unstoppable)
Shinnok (Bone Shaper)
Liu Kang (Flame Fist)
Cassie Cage (Hollywood)
Triborg (Sektor)
Tanya (Pyromancer)
Kitana (Royal Storm)
Sub Zero (Grandmaster)
Tremor (Crystalline)
Mileena (Piercing)
Takeda (Ronin)
Kenshi (Possessed)

A+
Sonya Blade (Demoliton)
Quan Chi (Summoner)
Cassie Cage (Brawler)
Jason (Relentless)
Quan Chi (Sorceror)
Kung Lao (Buzzsaw)
Tremor (Aftershock)
Kung Jin (Shaolin)
Jacqui Briggs (shotgun)
Kano (Cutthroat)
Kitana (Mournful)
Scorpion (Ninjutsu)

A
Mileena (Ravenous)
Takeda (Shirai Ryu)
Ermac (Spectral)
Sonya Blade (Special Forces)
Cassie Cage (Spec Ops)
Kano (Cybernetic)
Jason (Slasher)
Leatherface (Killer)
D'Vorah (Brood Mother)
Kotal Kahn (Wargod)
Takeda (Lasher)
Kitana (Assassin)

B+
Alien (Konjurer)
Leatherface (Pretty Lady)
Bo Rai Cho (Dragon's Breath)
Reptile (Nimble)
Sub Zero (Unbreakable)
Tanya (Dragon Naginata)
Sub Zero (Cryomancer)
Shinnok (Necromancer)
Sonya Blade (Covert Ops)
Predator (Hunter)
D'Vorah (Swarm Queen)
Erron Black (Gunslinger)
Johnny Cage (Stunt Double)
Ermac (Master of Souls)

B
Johnny Cage (A-List)
Kano (Commando)
Kung Jin (Bojutsu)
Reptile (Deceptive)
Alien (Acidic)
Ferra/Torr (Ruthless)
Raiden (Thunder God)
Goro (Dragon Fangs)
Tanya (Kobu Jutsu)
Kenshi (Balanced)
Reptile (Noxious)
Kotal Kahn (Sun God)
Jax (Wrestler)
Alien (Tarkaten)



C+
Kung Jin (Ancestral)
Bo’ Rai Cho (Bartitsu)
Kung Lao (Tempest)
Jax (Pumped Up)
Scorpion (Inferno)
Leatherface (Butcher)
Quan Chi (Warlock)
Predator (Warrior)
Tremor (Metallic)
Johnny Cage (Fisticuffs)
Erron Black (Marksman)
Kung Lao (Hattrick)

C
Triborg (Cyber Sub Zero)
Kotal Kahn (Blood God)
Ferra/Torr (Vicious)
D’vorah (Venomous)
Liu Kang (Dualist)
Jacqui Briggs (High Tech)
Goro (Kuatan Warrior)
Goro (Tigrar Fury)
Triborg (Cyrax)

D
Kenshi (Kenjutsu)
Bo’ Rai Cho (Drunken Master)
Jax (Heavy Weapons)
Ferra/Torr (Lackey)
Erron Black (Outlaw)
Raiden (Master of Storms)

I like this list, but Reptile should definitely be higher imo. Just one more up. Putting him in the same one as Swarm Queen, Konjurer, and Pretty Lady is just... eh

 

[TheRealOnlyGoonie]

IM JUST CURIOUS WHY DO PEOPLE THINK DISPLACER IS SO GOOD????

 

[Yer_Da]

IM JUST CURIOUS WHY DO PEOPLE THINK DISPLACER IS SO GOOD????

Well, why do you think he's so good? You've repeatedly said he's top five/top ten.

 

[TheGangstaFace]

IM JUST CURIOUS WHY DO PEOPLE THINK DISPLACER IS SO GOOD????

Good damage, good frames, amazing corner carry, crazy mobility, good corner game, good wakeups. He doesn't have to deal with a lot of bs. C'mon Goonie, you know this stuff lol

 

[D7X]

Good damage, good frames, amazing corner carry, crazy mobility, good corner game, good wakeups. He doesn't have to deal with a lot of bs. C'mon Goonie, you know this stuff lol

LET ME TRANSLATE FOR LORD GOONIE:
"GOOD DAMAGE, GOOD FRAMES, AMAZING CORNER CARRY, CRAZY MOBILITY, GOOD CORNER GAME, GOOD WAKEUPS. HE DOESN'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH A LOT OF BS. C'MON GOONIE, YOU KNOW THIS STUFF LOL"

 

[Tanno]

GOONIE, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU CURIOUS ABOUT THIS, WHEN YOU KNOW OBVIOUSLY THE ANSWER TO THIS?

AND WHY DO I KNOW GRANDMASTER SUB ZERO IS GOOD? BECAUSE I KNOW M.D. AND OTHER FELLAS HATE HIM AND THIS IS WHY I LOVE TROLLING THEM WITH MY BOY HERE!

 

[Eldriken]

War God higher than Sun God? Why do you feel that way, @Pan1cMode?

I'm legitimately curious.

 

[myri]

Alright, so before I get to answering the people who actually made an argument for moving a character up or down I want to say a few things.

I don't give a single shit if you disagree with me on a character's placement, I knew that was going to happen from the get go. In a community where we have thousands of players playing over a hundred variations there is going to be some difference in opinions caused by bias and experience, that's just a fact and I'm okay with that. What I don't like is when you just post something to the effect of "lol r u srs? ok." This doesn't help anyone, if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, please say why or I'm just going to ignore what you have to say (which ain't much). I'm not trying to start beef with anyone, I feel fortunate to not have any in this community yet, but I can't really talk to you about a characters placement if all you're going to say is "you're wrong."

Thank you to the people actually contributing to the discussion in a real and polite way.

 

[myri]

Myri you're a genius. I definitely fck with your tierlist. But i got 3-4 changes in mind

I would moved up :

Hellfire , Nimble, Possessed and Hollywood in S-tier and shaolion in A+

Also you're one of the few who know that Aftershock is actually the best variation of tremor #Congrats

Considering moving Hollywood and Hellfire, Shaolin I already moved up.

Also thank you.

When I refer to kenshi I mean Possessed lol. Balanced seem more like a 5-5 and for kenjutsu i am not so sure. Perhaps @Tweedy can elaborate on this. As for scorpion, Hellfire can make his 50/50s safe with his cancels and as for ninjutsu, his gameplan is not based on 50/50s but more on the neutral. Not to say Ninjutsu has one of the best normals in the game in f2 and b2.

Yeah, I was kinda talking more about just the fact that you can fuzzy/react to b3/f4 in all his variations and his ninjustu f2 and b2 are unsafe if spaced improperly, so his flaws are still there, but I get your point.

War God and DEFINITELY Blood God do not need to be grouped with Sun God. War God may be an exception, but certainly not Blood God. That variation is absolutely useless compared to the other two. Maybe before the nerfs to Kotal and the nerf to the Obsidian Totem, but not now.

I agree with Sun God's placement, however. It's just with the block stun fix to Kotal's OH and low sword, he's far more punishable now than he was before if you block his mixes. Then the removal of armor on EX db1 only adds insult to injury. They could have made it a two bar armored launcher like they did with other moves in the game.

It's so unbelievably unsafe like Mileena's ball roll, Predator's EX scimitar stab, etc that it wouldn't have made it unbalanced or unfair at all.

I'm just still super salty about what they did to my main guy. -.- Oh well. Jason more than makes up for it. Slasher and Unstoppable all the effin' way.

I'll take another look at Kotal's placements.

Balanced should be in B+ with his friend lackey garboTorr.

Stunt Double higher than A-List and Fisticuffs is a no. Stunt Double is Cage's worst variation now.

Outlaw a tier of his own? Nah. B+.

Other things seem questionable too.

Ok but why? Please tell me why I should change my JC placements.

HQT isn't S tier. Too many bad matchups

I thought this too when making it so I could move him down to A+, would like your reasons though.

Not bad. There's a few key things that stood out to me though that looked a little out of place:

- Shaolin is somehow lower than his other 2 variations, despite being the best
- Crystalline is somehow lower than other variations even though it's the best
- All Kitana's might as well be the same tier, they are so similar
- Switch Outlaw and Drunk Master's spots lol

Moved Shaolin up.

I think people are back and forth on whether Crystalline or Aftershock is better but for now I'm pretty happy with their placements.

You may be right about Kitana, I'll think about moving her variations around.

I don't wanna downplay my own character :c. Real talk though Drunken Master can do stuff, it's just super high risk low reward stuff, as far as I can tell Outlaw might as well not exist.

Again, thanks for the feedback, I'd like your reasoning on these too if you have a chance.

 

[ismael4790]

Ok but why? Please tell me why I should change my JC placements.

If you dive a bit in Cage forums you will see the details.

Basically stunt double lost almost everything that made him good. Frame changes to clones were criminal, gap in mimic exdb1, exforceball dmg nerf, straight mimic not comboing in the corner...

A-List got worse, but not destroyed, and fisticuffs got slighty enforced.

 

[myri]

If you dive a bit in Cage forums you will see the details.

Basically stunt double lost almost everything that made him good. Frame changes to clones were criminal, gap in mimic exdb1, exforceball dmg nerf, straight mimic not comboing in the corner...

A-List got worse, but not destroyed, and fisticuffs got slighty enforced.

Brief but ok, I'll scope out some stuff and see what I turn up.

@IrishMantis I would like your take on this as well please.

 

[Youphemism]

What are your reasons for these decisions?

Imposter being up in S+ and Necromancer up in A+
Spec Ops being up in A+
Gunslinger being up in A+
Spectral being down in A+
Dualist being up in A
All of Kotal being down in A
Vicious being up in A
Venomous being up in A
Cyrax being up in A
Heavy Weapons being down in B+
Cyber Sub Zero being down in B+
Outlaw as the worst variation in the game

(Side note: You have Shaolin listed in A+ AND A, and any of the things I haven't mentioned above I pretty much agree with )

 

[TheGangstaFace]

What are your reasons for these decisions?

Imposter being up in S+ and Necromancer up in A+
Spec Ops being up in A+
Gunslinger being up in A+
Spectral being down in A+
Dualist being up in A
All of Kotal being down in A
Vicious being up in A
Venomous being up in A
Cyrax being up in A
Heavy Weapons being down in B+
Cyber Sub Zero being down in B+
Outlaw as the worst variation in the game

(Side note: You have Shaolin listed in A+ AND A, and any of the things I haven't mentioned above I pretty much agree with )

I'm not sure for Myri's reasons but HW is heavy garbage. If you really want I can go into more detail

 

[Youphemism]

I'm not sure for Myri's reasons but HW is heavy garbage. If you really want I can go into more detail

Please do, I really don't think he's B+ tier bad. Jax in general just has a solid toolset like good footsie tools with F3, F2 and a 6 frame standing 1 (which is also a really solid anti-air) which is part of the reason I feel he can't be that bad.

 

[TheGangstaFace]

Please do, I really don't think he's B+ tier bad. Jax in general just has a solid toolset like good footsie tools with F3, F2 and a 6 frame standing 1 (which is also a really solid anti-air) which is part of the reason I feel he can't be that bad.

1. Armor- now you might say "well most of the cast lost armored launchers anyways." True. And I support those changes. BUT armor for HW is the worst of the 3 variations. He only has Ex Major Pain. It can be low profiled easy as HELL even though it's a mid. It's punishable on block AND it completely whiffs when people run or use an advancing normal on oki. The other 2 variations have other options. Wrestler: Ex Quad Grab. PU: Ex Gotcha.

2. Offense - Wrestler has tick throws for an extra offensive option and exclusive strings that help with the neutral and offense.
PU has a restand, more unbreakable damage, and he still gets energy wave.
HW has the worst pressure. 11 was nerfed to +1 from +2. So that doesn't help. He doesn't have energy wave for plus frames. He gets no plus frames with cancels except off S3 and S4. You also can't hit confirm into 123~Ex Overhead because of the stamina changes. Yes, you can hit confirm into 3B2 for a meterless combo but it does far less damage and corner carry. It's just another option that Jax lost

3. Zoning - with the loss of armor and the stamina changes he has an even worse time with zoning. Some characters he can win the trade but rocket, for the most part, isn't nearly as good dealing with zoning as energy wave or Ground pounds (with PU)

Final verdict - IMO you can put HW in one tier above whatever the lowest tier is in anybody's tier list. Not only do I think this is a bad (not trash) character but there's not one single mu I'd choose him over the other 2. Not even joking on this. He has the worst offense, defense, projectiles, and damage of the 3 and the least unbreakable damage

 

[Tanno]

Alright, so before I get to answering the people who actually made an argument for moving a character up or down I want to say a few things.

I don't give a single shit if you disagree with me on a character's placement, I knew that was going to happen from the get go. In a community where we have thousands of players playing over a hundred variations there is going to be some difference in opinions caused by bias and experience, that's just a fact and I'm okay with that. What I don't like is when you just post something to the effect of "lol r u srs? ok." This doesn't help anyone, if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, please say why or I'm just going to ignore what you have to say (which ain't much). I'm not trying to start beef with anyone, I feel fortunate to not have any in this community yet, but I can't really talk to you about a characters placement if all you're going to say is "you're wrong."

Thank you to the people actually contributing to the discussion in a real and polite way.

Sorry, bruh, but you asked for it with your statement. xD

You know the drill, grab your popcorn and your saltshakers.

 

[Carl]

He might be slightly better than Outlaw of course, but this doesn't change the real struggle the character faces.

I admit and admire NRS gave him nice fixes, which only adressed his ability to do combos consistently off these tools that were practically impossible to be consistent with, but instead of staying there, the character got clearly nerfed for no reason again.

S1 nerf was unnecessary, now every player can crossup KL on hat traps and he lost his way to react to it into a call back combo due the float being taken away, this hurt so many s1 jab combos.
The ex Spin nerf, but this one is universal, it did a lot of harm to the character in general but good riddance.

KL has THE WORST walkspeed in the game, this with the minus buttons and minus hat trap setups and call backs are what are hurting the character the most, and as long as these don't get buffed he won't be able to play the spacing game like any character in the game should.


NRS should've really increase both of his walkspeeds, give him a real backdash, and remove 5f on all hat traps so he can be at -1 at the current -6 setups on them, this would make him super fun to play and would actually frame trap mashers, and he being -5 on call backs and tele 3 would be the tip of the cake.

The charater would literally be perfect for competitive play without being too strong or too weak, he wouldn't need anything else, but hell, not even sure if we're getting the so called last patch, but he needs it.

Eddy im abit confused when u say spin good riddance. Did u agree with spin nerf?

 

[Eddy Wang]

Eddy im abit confused when u say spin good riddance. Did u agree with spin nerf?

its a general mechanic nerf, it doesn't mean that i agree with.

Point is, as long as KL excels in neutral in any variation he won't be needing wakeups imo.
Right now aside from Buzzsaw and to an extent tempest, KL in general has horrible neutral.

 

[Youphemism]

1. Armor- now you might say "well most of the cast lost armored launchers anyways." True. And I support those changes. BUT armor for HW is the worst of the 3 variations. He only has Ex Major Pain. It can be low profiled easy as HELL even though it's a mid. It's punishable on block AND it completely whiffs when people run or use an advancing normal on oki. The other 2 variations have other options. Wrestler: Ex Quad Grab. PU: Ex Gotcha.

2. Offense - Wrestler has tick throws for an extra offensive option and exclusive strings that help with the neutral and offense.
PU has a restand, more unbreakable damage, and he still gets energy wave.
HW has the worst pressure. 11 was nerfed to +1 from +2. So that doesn't help. He doesn't have energy wave for plus frames. He gets no plus frames with cancels except off S3 and S4. You also can't hit confirm into 123~Ex Overhead because of the stamina changes. Yes, you can hit confirm into 3B2 for a meterless combo but it does far less damage and corner carry. It's just another option that Jax lost

3. Zoning - with the loss of armor and the stamina changes he has an even worse time with zoning. Some characters he can win the trade but rocket, for the most part, isn't nearly as good dealing with zoning as energy wave or Ground pounds (with PU)

Final verdict - IMO you can put HW in one tier above whatever the lowest tier is in anybody's tier list. Not only do I think this is a bad (not trash) character but there's not one single mu I'd choose him over the other 2. Not even joking on this. He has the worst offense, defense, projectiles, and damage of the 3 and the least unbreakable damage

Well yeah his armour is the worst of the three but as we've seen with variations like Swarm Queen bad armour doesn't mean bad variation. However SQ also had great offence which brings me to the next point.

Base Jax has several safe mids, good plus on block strings, a 6 frame starter that also leads to one of those plus on block string and solid ranged mids with F2 and F3. You're saying that him only being +1 is bad when ther characters would kill for a fast gapless string that's plus lol. I wouldn't call that bad offence. You're forgetting that (in the corner anyway) Heavy Weapons ALSO has a restand using his upward gun that's way more plus on hit than Pumped Ups ex gotcha grab. Him having access to meterless damage midscreen is actually pretty big considering the other two don't. And 3B2 gives you a combo with a LOT of corner carry, even if it is a bit less than with exBF2D.

How does the loss of armoured launchers hinder his zoning game? If anything that gives him less damage to worry about surely? The stamina changes do hurt though. His rocket doing so much damage is a big deal in zoning wars, and although it is slow so it can be hard to get trades sometimes the energy wave in the other two is also kinda slow. Being able to cancel the rocket AND aim it upwards or towards the opponent is also good because you can do something with HW that you can't do with the other two - bait. But since Jax is meant to be good when up in your face it might not even be worth zoning.

I dunno, even if his offence is worse than the other two that doesn't make it bad. I mean he still has 50/50 starters on top of the rest of his tools, it just doesn't seem right to put him in the same place as variations like Hat Trick and Master of Storms who have neutral issues Jax in general doesn't have to deal with. Heavy Weapons seems more fitting in the lower end of A tier to me (although maybe A- but there isn't one of those here).

 

[TheGangstaFace]

Well yeah his armour is the worst of the three but as we've seen with variations like Swarm Queen bad armour doesn't mean bad variation. However SQ also had great offence which brings me to the next point.

Base Jax has several safe mids, good plus on block strings, a 6 frame starter that also leads to one of those plus on block string and solid ranged mids with F2 and F3. You're saying that him only being +1 is bad when ther characters would kill for a fast gapless string that's plus lol. I wouldn't call that bad offence. You're forgetting that (in the corner anyway) Heavy Weapons ALSO has a restand using his upward gun that's way more plus on hit than Pumped Ups ex gotcha grab. Him having access to meterless damage midscreen is actually pretty big considering the other two don't. And 3B2 gives you a combo with a LOT of corner carry, even if it is a bit less than with exBF2D.

How does the loss of armoured launchers hinder his zoning game? If anything that gives him less damage to worry about surely? The stamina changes do hurt though. His rocket doing so much damage is a big deal in zoning wars, and although it is slow so it can be hard to get trades sometimes the energy wave in the other two is also kinda slow. Being able to cancel the rocket AND aim it upwards or towards the opponent is also good because you can do something with HW that you can't do with the other two - bait. But since Jax is meant to be good when up in your face it might not even be worth zoning.

I dunno, even if his offence is worse than the other two that doesn't make it bad. I mean he still has 50/50 starters on top of the rest of his tools, it just doesn't seem right to put him in the same place as variations like Hat Trick and Master of Storms who have neutral issues Jax in general doesn't have to deal with. Heavy Weapons seems more fitting in the lower end of A tier to me (although maybe A- but there isn't one of those here).

I meant the loss of armor on his Dash Punch makes him more prone to zoning. Rocket trading is actually difficult because as you mentioned it's slow. Against a lot of projectiles he either gets hit before he shoots the rocket or they recover fast enough to block it. At least with energy wave you force your opponent to duck which makes them open to mids or even if for some reason your opponent blocks they eat +7.

Also F21 is a great string but it also gets low profiled without any effort and he has 1 safe mid. F3 isn't safe and it has a gap into anything, and most of the cast has a safe mid lol. F3 is what makes up for the low profiling and it's faster than F2. But it's also a risk and negative win a gap into anything. Which is fine. You have to be smart about using it but you also gotta realize what game this is. F3 would be incredible in other fighters but this is the same game where I could use a character like Takeda and use that forward advancing mid and it's safe with even more range and it's a stagger and it has no gaps. Takeda is just one example. You got Cassie, D'vorah, Smoke, etc.

Also you mentioned D'vorah not having good armor. That's completely different. D'vorah was a monster at everything else in the game EXCEPT her wakeup. HW has multiple flaws including armor.

As for the meterless damage goes, I think that's his only true redeeming factor. But it's not enough. Even then some of those links are just inconsistent. Even HW Mains don't get those links 100% of the time.

Also you can't base a characters tier placement on their tools. You base it on their mu's and i can assure you that HW definitely loses a lot more mu's than he does win and he definitely has less 5-5's than PU or Wrestler

Edit: Oh yeah and the Restand you mentioned is a redeeming factor

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

Wtf is this myri

 

[myri]

Wtf is this myri

Probably a mistake but fuck it, it's done now.

Unless you're talking about Goro's placement, then enlighten me.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

Haven'tplayed or watched shit in weeks but BOIIIII let me tell you how smart I am.

- Shinnok better than Tremor/Jason/Jacqui? Don't see it fam. Making better reads onHS/actually punishing HS makes a world of difference.
- Mileena best var piercing?? Not sure I'd have her top top either, but still high.
- Raiden down a tier or two.
- Goro DF higher in A+, Kuatan higher in A

Rest I didn't really look at/care about.

Point is I don't trust any Australian tier lists, hence why I've never made on either. All this shit's relative and even my suggestions there mean absoultely nothing. Let's just plaaaaaayyyyy.

 

[Youphemism]

I meant the loss of armor on his Dash Punch makes him more prone to zoning. Rocket trading is actually difficult because as you mentioned it's slow. Against a lot of projectiles he either gets hit before he shoots the rocket or they recover fast enough to block it. At least with energy wave you force your opponent to duck which makes them open to mids or even if for some reason your opponent blocks they eat +7.

Also F21 is a great string but it also gets low profiled without any effort and he has 1 safe mid. F3 isn't safe and it has a gap into anything, and most of the cast has a safe mid lol. F3 is what makes up for the low profiling and it's faster than F2. But it's also a risk and negative win a gap into anything. Which is fine. You have to be smart about using it but you also gotta realize what game this is. F3 would be incredible in other fighters but this is the same game where I could use a character like Takeda and use that forward advancing mid and it's safe with even more range and it's a stagger and it has no gaps. Takeda is just one example. You got Cassie, D'vorah, Smoke, etc.

Also you mentioned D'vorah not having good armor. That's completely different. D'vorah was a monster at everything else in the game EXCEPT her wakeup. HW has multiple flaws including armor.

As for the meterless damage goes, I think that's his only true redeeming factor. But it's not enough. Even then some of those links are just inconsistent. Even HW Mains don't get those links 100% of the time.

Also you can't base a characters tier placement on their tools. You base it on their mu's and i can assure you that HW definitely loses a lot more mu's than he does win and he definitely has less 5-5's than PU or Wrestler

Edit: Oh yeah and the Restand you mentioned is a redeeming factor

Yeah that's true, it should be based on matchup charts, but when was the last time we had a tier list actually based on those? Lol