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Question How do you think buffs/nerfs are decided?

Darth-Nero

Darth-Nero

Come Thunder! Come Lightning!
@Eldriken

All jokes aside, NRS already cemented the fact that they buff/nerf based on bias, popularity and favoritism Regardless of which characters does actually need buffs or deserve nerfs. I've been saying so all the time before the patch come out but ppl didn't listen, Now you see characters like Kitana and subzero keeps getting refined to the finest detail one patch after the other till they now stand on a tier of their own.

And if you are looking for some sense in these changes..there are NONE. When the patch came out with the new meta, The general consensus about it is that they tried to balance the game by tuning down offense. which is fine, great idea, let's do that. So no more armor launchers, Stamina nerfed so pressure characters can no longer do jack shit, Kotal is "too much" now; no more fast advancing mids..,etc. great now the game is balanced, amirite?

Wrong. You now get to see characters not only do they keep their prepatch stuff that doesn't fit the new meta, but they get even more bullshit stuff that doesn't fit the new meta. Of course it's clear now am focusing my point on bitchass kitana as the primary example of such madness.

Literally everything that this character got goes against what the new meta aims to do and the changes that befallen the other characters:

-She still keeps armor launcher
-Buffed hitbox on her fast advancing mid so she can launch you from half a screen away if you're pressing buttons
-New float cancel buff so now she have a similar pressure to what gotten vanilla tempest Lao gets nerfed
-All the rest of her prepatch tools are either buffed or remains unchanged

why/how?? We all know why, If a man child works for you he ain't gonna give a shit about balance. He's just gonna make his waifu becomes top tier. How is that even fair? "Welcome to Netherrealm studios, we already took your money and we don't give a shit no more. this is the hand you've been dealt so try to enjoy. Now excuse us, we're moving on to focus on our next game"

At this point i don't even bother talking about it since nothing is going to change, Am just giving my 2 cents since you made that thread that i retracted from doing myself. Frankly mkx has been a train wreck of disappointments for me, Yes i had and still having some fun playing it but am generally unhappy and i wouldn't be buying any of NRS future games on release anymore. I'll take my time to observe what they offer and how they're being handled before i decide whether or not am going to support them with my wallet.
 
ChatterBox

ChatterBox

Searching for an alt.
trufenix said:
Devil's abbacus here chuck. Tanya, Scorpion, Kano, Kabal, Bane, Sub Zero, Shinnok, Jacqui, The other Scorpion, Tanya again, CSZ, Quan Chi (in both games), Kabal, Jax, Cyrax Cyrax fucking Cyrax. These are all characters that just happened to be tanked or buffed shortly after they became a "discussion topic" here. You think Deathstroke lost 5 frames off low guns because the average member of the MKO has that kind of reaction speed online?
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That isn't the point I am making, I said they don't fix the problems the way TYM wants them solved, not that they refuse to touch characters we complain about. That's also sooooo many less characters than ones that were "discussion topics" here. So I don't see how that makes me incorrect at all, the math on that is pretty uneven.
Two things;
a) who does this dialogue start with. You want them to hold a beta for a game that has a million+ casual players and distill it all into a patch that the most competitive will approve? Isn't that what we already do by playing online each and every day? Or are we going to appoint community leaders and tell NRS listen, these 5 guys know what we all want? That hasn't worked for any game ever. Not lol. Not wow. Not even golf.
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In my mind it starts with them. I complain about my character, they just say "what is the actual problem?" I then need evidence, not just salt. A lot of the twitter/tym complaints are salt without frame data or meta specific problems. These things don't get explored enough for NRS to have a decent idea of how to properly fix them anyway, never mind the fact that each game is new, thus starting the balance from zero. How do you think KOF and SFV and any other game gets balanced? Time and evidence and communication. NRS hired testers for every game, then just hire more or ask for feedback for free. I'm sure people would write in, but without details and explanations that usually aren't found in 140 characters nothing gets thought through. How many people ran at the netcode beta? Imagine the flood of testing that would be done with a vs mode and training mode balance beta.
b) Capcom held a year long beta for SF5. There were crying voices day one. How do you account for that? Is the only way to make a functional fighting game to Skullgirls it and put out a build ever couple hours like Mike Z? Cause even the SG community has had their ups and downs with the overall state of the game. Mike Z gets in front of a camera every week to tell people how and why he does what he does, and that game is FAR from perfect. I personally checked out during the second Double debacle, I think now they're on to bitching about Fukua and Robo Fortune. Two DLC characters that changed everything forever, sound familiar?
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They specifically stated that SFV beta was for their netcode and DLC practices. There will always be crying voices, no matter what patch on what day, that doesn't mean people should stop trying. We played random builds of the game and weren't asked our opinion of the balance. I get that Mike Z loves his game, but NRS being a bigger studio with WB behind them can put out balance changes at a similar rate in my estimation. I'm just suggesting NRS go with a different methodology than just announcing patches right before they come out and getting no input that knew they were listening. Over half the people on this site want people fired and have no idea what their actual job is, imagine if they knew someone cared and thought about their character.
 
JerzeyReign

JerzeyReign

PSN: JerzeyReign
How are they decided? Amount of bitching done by pros on twitter and everyone else on TYM. Starting to get disgruntled about Mileena's b1 being a high while characters like Sektor out here chilling with a 10f mid. We could of at least got the Alien tail treatment with the sais in her hand with piercing. Having to eat double d1s from majority of the cast is starting to be lame.
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
ChatterBox said:
Someone hit the nail on the head when they said NRS doesn't want to do the changes suggested here on tym, I won't ascribe any motivations for that, but the trend is certainly there.

Beta testing the changes would be huge, but any communication from NRS would be big. I don't mean "hey here's what we decided so good luck" I mean an actual back and forth on improving their game in a competitive format. Lurking on forums and twitter doesn't get you real answers from most people. I get that MK is for casuals too (which is awesome) but the fumbling in the dark aspect is rough to deal with. I'm particularly excited for inj2 though because Gear mode vs Tourney mode should allow for the two metas to coexist separately and benefit all.
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They used to rely on the expertise of TYM'ers a lot, but they have been misled many times and I don't blame them for being apprehensive in accepting statements from everyone here at face value.
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
JerzeyReign said:
How are they decided? Amount of bitching done by pros on twitter and everyone else on TYM. Starting to get disgruntled about Mileena's b1 being a high while characters like Sektor out here chilling with a 10f mid. We could of at least got the Alien tail treatment with the sais in her hand with piercing. Having to eat double d1s from majority of the cast is starting to be lame.
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tatterbug4

tatterbug4

Bug of tater's
I feel like if they hired some actual players to think of buff and nerf ideas then games in general would be more balanced.

But at the same time I also feel they try to keep the game not balanced so that the game seems more interesting I guess. So it adds those moments where you feel great because you beat Martian with joker
 
Tanno

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
KingHippo said:
16 Bit, Pimpimjim, Slips for a time, Dizzy, all guys with great accomplishments in previous games.
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There's Decay, too. I wonder about this... Do these guys lab those chars enough? IMO, it would be best if they had hired a respective player for a respective char, like Madzin or Tom Brady for GM Sub Zero, Scar for Sonya Blade, etc to find any stuff happening between those chars, like D'Vorah's missing hurtboxes against Ice Klone.

It would be best to ask them directly about how do they decide the buff/nerf stuff.

@colt
 
KingHippo

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Tanno said:
There's Decay, too. I wonder about this... Do these guys lab those chars enough? IMO, it would be best if they had hired a respective player for a respective char, like Madzin or Tom Brady for GM Sub Zero, Scar for Sonya Blade, etc to find any stuff happening between those chars, like D'Vorah's missing hurtboxes against Ice Klone.

It would be best to ask them directly about how do they decide the buff/nerf stuff.

@colt
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This is where it gets unrealistic. Why would they hire thirty dudes for each character? And second, you can hire top guys, but the reality is you can't compete and you only focus on the job, so you can't put in the time necessary to be a "top guy" relative to the dudes who play all the time and only play. The idea is you use your experience with games to make judgements based on how you play in a controlled environment with deadlines. You have to be reasonable about stuff like this.
 
Tanno

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
KingHippo said:
This is where it gets unrealistic. Why would they hire thirty dudes for each character? And second, you can hire top guys, but the reality is you can't compete and you only focus on the job, so you can't put in the time necessary to be a "top guy" relative to the dudes who play all the time and only play. The idea is you use your experience with games to make judgements based on how you play in a controlled environment with deadlines. You have to be reasonable about stuff like this.
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I understand that it sounds unrealistic for you, but those guys with high level skills do pull out those chars' 100% potential, so it's natural for them to know their main chars off by heart, meaning their advantages, weaknesses and problems that need a good fixing to be played by everyone. Literally, you need the lab monsters to know what's wrong with those chars before fixing them.

I'll admit that the idea to use the experience for the games is good, however, to make good judgements need to pull out those chars' potential to the max to find which is OK, and which not. :/

I have been a beta tester for other games, so I know how does it go.
 
A

angry bruiser

Noob
i tried to address pretty much this exact point, albeit in a far more hostile manner (i outed NRS as being incompetent, although frankly, all of these elements cannot be excused by anything other than developer incompetence and ignorance.)

i'll bring up the same examples i did back then. look at quan chi's sky drop. since release, it's been a useless move. even the 'armored' version would lose, people could even hit your armor as you went down, and still react to njp you coming from above after. so what's the result? in the end we've had this special move on a char for over a year, which no one ever actually uses, and definitely isn't applied in the intended way (it was obviously designed as an unsafe reversal,) as it's never actually used (or viable to use) for escape.

so ultimately, there isn't much positives to take from this. either nrs actually intentionally designed a move to be useless, and invested a lot of resources into the sfx, animations, and just fleshing it out as a developer prior. so, are they intentionally investing all these costs into something they know will never be used? no, of course not. the only actual conclusion is that, despite a year of balancing, nrs have actually been too incompetent to make that move serve its initial purpose (it's never had a purpose in practicality.)

similarly, look at pre MKXL tremor's db3 versus now. before, it was one of his biggest tools to use in neutral and particularly aerial space control. but after the nerf? everyone in the tremor forums just admit they've stopped using the move, aside from the EX version in some setups. how is that fine? after a balance change, suddenly the entire playerbase for that character will have to act as if the move never even exists. it's now full-screen run punishable.. and so, you end up with a balance change that leads to a move never being used, which in the end limits options and variety drastically.

i think this is a large part of the balance approach that's caused me to find the game incredibly boring ever since MKXL. people lose access to their interesting/unique tools like above, and instead nrs just gives them a faster d1/d3 or some string, so everyone's playing the poke war game. even goro has a 6f d1 now. it's lazy, incompetent and homogenized balance.
 
Ragnarök Tyr

Ragnarök Tyr

Noob
JerzeyReign said:
How are they decided? Amount of bitching done by pros on twitter and everyone else on TYM. Starting to get disgruntled about Mileena's b1 being a high while characters like Sektor out here chilling with a 10f mid. We could of at least got the Alien tail treatment with the sais in her hand with piercing. Having to eat double d1s from majority of the cast is starting to be lame.
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Sektor's mids get low profiled by Mileena, and F4 gets blown up.

Play Tremor or Ermac and watch how many D1's people will attempt, or Kenshi, a few others etc. Just means you have to space the b1 and aim for the 2, or confirm off of low pokes.
 
U

Undergroundepict

I am like the blue rose
The central problem is that with every balance patch they try to fix too much shit at once. Note that when the game first came out, the first three or four balance patches were pretty good, in terms of not overnerfing high tiers or overbuffing low tiers. The only character I can recall getting overkilled was Scorpion with the 214 cancel advantage debacle. Otherwise, things weren't perfect (when are they ever?), but there were very few moves that made you scratch your head and say "why?"

After that, shit got wild. We only saw patches every 4-6 months (which is fine on its own), and those patches acted to continually shift tiers around, flipping them head down ass up more frequently than a 2 Live Crew concert , while making fundamental changes to the game's core mechanics that oftentimes made little sense or came across as cheap, in a low production value sort of way. IMO, very little thought was put in to removing armored launchers from the game. I understand, they realized the error of their ways where this was concerned, but save it for Injustice 2/MK 11. MKX was the armored launcher and safe 50/50 mixup game; changing that now makes MKX look like a game that can't decide what it wants to be when it grows up.

If NRS just stuck to the program and continued to nerf a few frames here and buff a few frames there, they would have had a reasonably balanced game by now. Instead, they kept trying to fix every single problem in the game in one patch. Someone needed to remind them that it's ok if Kung Lao and Tanya are still top tier two versions in a row, as long as they make some attempt at toning them down a little bit. It's better to deal with the same top tiers patch in and patch out than it is to have to all of a sudden deal with Cutthroat Kano and Piercing Mileena, while being forced to relearn how to play your own character from the ground up.

Patience and gradualism are the keys to patching a balanced game, and NRS isn't having any of that.
 
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Johnny Based Cage

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
16 Bit and Tyler dress like donkeys and the rest of the staff pins tails on them with character names attached, then they oil up and wrassle. Loser's characters get nerfed and winner's buffed.
 
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